Reconciliation Cancels Out the Doctrine of Predestination
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
beloved57
Well-known member
You don't believe in the same God as I do ! My God made the Vessels of Wrath to condemn them for their sins against His law!
Shasta
Well-known member
If you read Jeremiah 18 it is apparent that He was talking about a nation that was (generally) obedient and had been given promises and blessings and another about which judgments had already been prophesied. Which one was Israel is not important. The scriptures are putting forth a pattern of how God deals with nations. You cannot limit it by saying "we are not Israel" since only one of the two nations he mentioned could have been Israel.
To say this is not how God deals with people anymore invalidates and makes irrelevant the OT when it is the foundation upon which the NT was built. That broad sweeping statement does not affirm the inspiration of the OT which no part should be considered past unless there is a precedent such as when Jesus said "you have heard it said...but I say."
You have tried to make a quick and easy point and, in so doing undermined the authority of the Word. Calvin and Luther would never have said such a thing just to win an argument.
Shasta
Well-known member
So basically none of the principles elucidated in the Prophets applies to us because we are not Israel, Edom, Syria, Assyria, Babylon, or any of the individuals that God addressed His words to.
NickCharles
New member
I've taken the scripture at face value. The OT concerned Israel as a nation. My salvation is not dependent on God's view of America. What promises and blessings has He given to the US?
NickCharles
New member
Why would they be? Are those nations children of the promise? Not even all of Abraham's descents are in view as not all are children of the promise.
Shasta
Well-known member
Why would God need to make a vessel soley for the purpose of smashing it?
Shasta
Well-known member
So you deny that Jeremiah 18 describes how God deals with nations
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Why do you think you get to ask?
NickCharles
New member
Yes. That is not the context. And that has nothing to do with Romans 9 because Paul doesn't mention nations.
NickCharles
New member
But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" - Romans 9:20
Shasta
Well-known member
You have a low and very limited view of the Bible, Nick, one not shared by the Apostles, Jesus or, I might add, by Calvin, Luther and the other Reformers.
When Paul told Timothy the following:
16 All (not some) Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:16).
...he was talking about the OT. The NT had not been written down yet. In fact, we know he meant the OT because of what he said in the preceding verse.
15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus (2 Timothy 3:15)
Timothy had been raised having the sacred writings read to Him. These were the written scriptures - what we call the OT.
1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Of which were veiled until Christ was revealed.
NickCharles
New member
That has nothing to do with my point. I'm not saying that it's not important. I'm saying that we are not Israel and so Jeremiah does not pertain to us today. It wasn't Paul's point in Romans 9. He never mentions that he has nations in mind. In fact, just the opposite. He says not all are Israel who are children of Abraham.
Tell me truthfully. What would you say Paul was talking about if you read chapter 9 as written?
beloved57
Well-known member
God does what He wants to do for His Own Glory, thats why ? Too bad if you dont like it, or understand it, or believe it ! And you and i dont believe in the same God anyway !
Shasta
Well-known member
If they remain consistent with the doctrine of the Reformers: Luther, Calvin who got their doctrine from Augustine they would not know until the end. Augustine, et al, believed in "perseverance" not OSAS. Perseverance which is derived from predestination, holds that those who will ultimately make it in the end will the the ones predestined to do so. In the meantime, apostasy is possible but if you fall away you are not one of the chosen.
OSAS which is sacred to Baptists is a modification of that. It seems to me it emphasizes irresistible grace POST-salvation. They do not believe in it PRE-salvation only post. In their thinking once you are in you will make it no matter what you do (antinomianism). This is not the classic doctrine of perseverance.
The Greek speaking Church "Fathers" for the first 300-400 years held unanimously to the idea of conditional security, that is, that a person who begins in the faith has to continue in it to be saved. They renounced the idea or meritorious Phariseeical "good works" as a means of obtaining salvation.
Augustine, who brought in the whole idea of predestination and inability into the Church could not read the writings of his Greek-speaking predecessors. He used a badly translated Latin version of the Bible rather than the original Greek text. This caused Him to bring in such errors as infant damnation and original sin (in the Catholic sense). He was also into sacrementalism and the exaltation of Mary. His method of interpreting scripture was primarily allegorical. Augustine greatly contributed to the misinformation that has been passed down as Christian doctrine since then. Augustine believed in the doctrine of inability unlike the Church Fathers before him who had always taught freewill. When he got in power Augustine began removing from the ministry all who taught freewill even through that had been the belief since the First Century. Calvin like his teacher was also a persecutor
False Prophet
New member
Is predestination mentioned in the BOOK?
Shasta
Well-known member
You are saying that God no longer deals with the nations as He did then. I have showed evidence from the scriptures (which are profitable for doctrine) that He does. What evidence do you have to prove He does not?
Shasta
Well-known member
Finally we agree. I do not believe in the same God you do. I think your God is constructed of a papier-mâché of shredded and misinterpreted scriptures guided by childish concrete thinking and an utter lack of judgement. My advice is that you give up theology.
beloved57
Well-known member
You just Blasphemed the True God! See you at the Judgment!