A Peculiar Kind of Gospel
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They were not imputed to me as sin. It was that truth that set me free. I was a beliver. I was just wrong on some things. And they are things that should be taught. I was taught the opposite. Which is why I stayed bound. I didn't beleive I was free. You're right. No one submits to the Spirit constantly. But the belief that submittance to the flesh brings condemnation is a lie. And it keeps people bound to their flesh, because they are constantly trying to live byt the "rules" of their own accord. And they fail. When they rely on Christ, and Christ alone, then freedom is evident.
I am not saying the things you think I am saying. I never said we coule not be tempted. I just said that I am not tempted. I don't mean the kind of temptation that Christ faced. I mean something deeper. I am referring to the desire to give in to temptation. I don't even desire to give in, when an opportunity presents itself. This is not true in all things I struggle with, but that is because the truth is new to me. And God is removing the desires one step at a time.
I already have. A few times since I learned the truth. But I have not given in to the temptation to view pornography, in a few months, because I have not desired to do so. I've never gone that long, before.
When have I ever said that the Spirit would not bring me to repentance? I remember when I believed as you do. I felt condemned when I fell. Now I know I fell, and the Spirit effects repentance. But I do not feel condemnation, anymore. Because I know I am not condemned. I am not passive. I am submissive to God.
Do you mean someone that turns from God, completely? Explain what you mean. If someone I thought of as godly turns away from God, then I will know they were never with Him. But if they just fall into submission to the flesh, yet they still believe in Christ as Lord, then they have lost nothing. Their salvation is secure in Christ, because their faith is still alive.
My best friend fell into a pit of despair, and submitted to the flesh in many areas. He slept with another friend's wife, having a full fledged affair. He was always getting drunk. His faith was still in Christ, but he submitted to the flesh. He was still in Christ, because Christ never lets us go. If he had died during that time he would have gone to paradise, to be with the Lord, forever. But he did not die, and he has now returned to right behavior. And, as he learns the truth of freedom from sin, he will live more and more rightly.
I never said that these people never believed. But they were never saved.
I never said that. If someone lives for Satan, they were never in Christ.
No. Yours do.
I am immune to the temptation to look at pornography. By this I mean that I do not desire to look at it. If the opportunity presents itself, I don't even care. Before, I would have taken the opportunity, because I would have wanted to.
Well, lighthouse, you are now stating things I have been saying for months. I either misunderstood your views or you have refined them in the face of clear examples. Your testimony is one of someone walking in the light as He is in the light (I Jn.). You imply a process of sanctification and dealing with the flesh in your faith journey. This is self-evident, but the very thing that made sozo condemn me as a Christ-hater and a pervert?!
We still disagree in other areas. You suggest someone can 'believe' and not be saved. I agree. The devil is the classic example IF we define belief as mere intellectual knowledge. I agree that many so-called believers were never saved.
However, I believe there is another category. There are those who have genuine saving faith (love, trust, knowledge, surrender, obedience, etc.). Some of these have deviated to the point of renouncing their former faith and now becoming unbelievers by definition. If salvation is a passive, irreversible, physical change then you have a point. However, if salvation has a volitional, responsive, abiding, persevering, relational element, then it is theoretically possible to become apostate as Hebrews warns. Some of those will respond to the Spirit and repent and return to genuine faith. Others may persist in rebellion and die in that state. This seems self-evident and Scriptural to me. Our believing state 20 years ago does not mean automatically that we will remain in that state 10 years from now. Continuous, present tense verbs are used about believing. If a one time faith was sufficient, then a past aorist (vs imperfect=continuous) tense would be used.
We still disagree in other areas. You suggest someone can 'believe' and not be saved. I agree. The devil is the classic example IF we define belief as mere intellectual knowledge. I agree that many so-called believers were never saved.
However, I believe there is another category. There are those who have genuine saving faith (love, trust, knowledge, surrender, obedience, etc.). Some of these have deviated to the point of renouncing their former faith and now becoming unbelievers by definition. If salvation is a passive, irreversible, physical change then you have a point. However, if salvation has a volitional, responsive, abiding, persevering, relational element, then it is theoretically possible to become apostate as Hebrews warns. Some of those will respond to the Spirit and repent and return to genuine faith. Others may persist in rebellion and die in that state. This seems self-evident and Scriptural to me. Our believing state 20 years ago does not mean automatically that we will remain in that state 10 years from now. Continuous, present tense verbs are used about believing. If a one time faith was sufficient, then a past aorist (vs imperfect=continuous) tense would be used.
This is why Sozo called you an enemy of Christ. because you believe that God lets go of people. If anyone walks away from Christ, they were never in Him, because He will not let anyone go. He will stay with them, and bring them back. But those who deny His Lordship never knew Him, at all.
It's not a physical change. It's a spiritual change. And it is irreversible. God's call is irrevocable.
Hebrews asks why anyone would walk away.
The response is to grace. And grace effects repentance. And Christ indwells us. It is then He who lives. Not us. We have been crucified with Him. We do not "abide" in Christ. He abides in us. And we are in Him.
Is it rebellion, or unbelief? If someone is in the Spirit, they will respond to the Spirit. If they don't respond, they are not in the Spirit. And if they are not in the Spirit, they never were.
Do you mean our state of belief, or our state of faith? My faith is not my own. It is a gift of God. He is the author and finisher of my faith. He keeps my faith alive. And He will keep me, eternally.
It is not a one time faith. It is a faith that is a gift of God. He continues it. Not us.
Correction...I have never stated I believe that God lets go of people. We are secure in Him if we remain in Him. If someone renounces and rebels it is not God's fault. If we spit in God's face, He will not be mocked. He will continue to woo us to repent, but if we harden our hearts, we will suffer the consequences. This would not be an isolated lapse, but a willful, conscious defiance against great light. Nothing can separate us from His love. He holds us in His hands. However, unless God removes free moral agency and makes us deterministic beings (coercion vs love relationship), it is theoretically possible for us to reject Him. When we receive Him we become children of God. If we ever renounce Him, we cannot claim to be in relationship any more. You and I and millions of others will never do this. However, if even one believer in history did this, then your case falls apart. I purpose that Judas is such an example (let alone people I have personally known...most believers know of loved one's who once knew and served Christ and are now denying Him. Some may return, but others die in a state of Christ-rejection...sad, but true).
It is still a wrong assumption to think that anyone who does fall away never knew Him. There is nothing explicit in Scripture to prove that this is always the case (it is sometimes). I was once an unbeliever at time x. I am a believer from x to y. It is possible at point z to cease trusting Christ and decide to become a devil worshipper. This does not negate the legitimacy of the previous durations. It is a change in status that must be possible unless our futures are fatalistically fixed (Islam; Calvinism).
Zakath
Resident Atheist
If you say so...
:chuckle:
How do you know that what you are attributing to your inner strength isn't merely due to a hormonal imbalance?
Do you understand the concept of "operant conditioning"? While I am not a general supporter of behaviorism, I think it might be applicable to this case...
elohiym
Well-known member
Exactly!!!!! :thumb:
THAT is what my wife and I have been trying to get Lighthouse to realize! It's even obvious to you that his gospel and sozo's gospel are day and night.
What I can't figure out is why sozo has rebuked YOU, and others, but not Lighthouse.
1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
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elohiym
Well-known member
More significantly, Jesus was tempted in all the same ways we are.
That is important...
So if just one temptation I have is sin, then it is very significant that Jesus could be tempted in the same, yet be without sin. When a man is merely tempted to commit adultery, he is brought to that temptation by his own lust (covetousness), which is a sin in itself.
It is not a sin to be tempted by the devil, or another person. It is our temptation to give in to that temptation that is sin. In other words, Jesus was tempted by the Devil, but he wasn't tempted to do anything against God's law. He was hungry, but did not lust/covet the bread. God's word was sustaining him.
So your example really doesn't relate to what we're discussing. Please give me an example of one temptation that isn't sin. What I have found is that I can't think of one, and no person I have asked this has ever provided me with an example. That's partly why I believe that all temptation is sin.
Okay. Let's start with these two:
It seems logical, based on that verse, that NO man is tempted UNLESS "he is drawn away of his own lust", which is covetousness, a sin.
James states the source/origin of temptation is lust. Paul states that lust equates to coveting.
In any case, only ONE temptation common to man needs to be a sin of itself, and the significance of Christ's temptation without sin becomes a different revelation altogether.
When all that changed me was a change in belief, I am more prone to believe that hormones and behavioral conditioning had no part in it. I was presented with what the Bible said, and I believed it over what i had previously believed. From that moment on I was changed. I was free of the fear of condemnation, and I revel in the freedom. For I now know, not merely tout, that I am free from sin and cleansed of all unrighteousness.
I can not understand how you believe that anyone who is in Christ would ever do such a thing. I was talking with someone the other day who believes OSAS. And they said they beleived that someone could do that, walk away. And that that person was still saved. You're just as bad as they in your beliefs. Anyone who walks away was never in Christ. Because we do not make ourselves His. He does. And when He makes us His, we are His.
He is the author and finisher of faith. Not us. Do you really think God would finish someone's faith like that?
He doesn't remove free will. He replaces our will and desires with His. And then we choose Him, because we desire Him!
You can't be saved unless you are born again. And you can't be unborn.
I stand that those in Christ never leave Him. If you want to belive that those who know Christ would leave Him, then fine. But think about what that would mean about God.
Those who walk away, if they stayed, and remained with the same faith, then they would be the ones that Christ told to depart from Him. Because, for us to know Him, He must know us. And neither will leave, or forsake, the other.
What do you think is the problem with what I believe? I know that sanctification is immediate, upon the gift of faith. It comes with salvation. And we are, at that moment, made righteous. And we are then, free from sin. Free from condemnation. Those who are decieved remain in bondage to the desires of the flesh. But those who know the truth are made free. And that is not a license to remain in sickness. It is freedom from it! Our desires are changed, when we know the truth. And if we are taught the truth from moment one, then we know freedom from that moment. What is it about what I belive that you think is so wrong, that you can't understand why Sozo hasn't rebuked me? And have you ever stopped to think that Sozo agrees with me?Originally posted by elohiym
Exactly!!!!! :thumb:
THAT is what my wife and I have been trying to get Lighthouse to realize! It's even obvious to you that his gospel and sozo's gospel are day and night.
What I can't figure out is why sozo has rebuked YOU, and others, but not Lighthouse.
1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.
James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
elohiym
Well-known member
Where shall I start?
Okay. First, you seem to think that the apostle Paul could actually stop doing what he didn't want to do, even though he clearly stated he was a wretched man that couldn't stop sinning, and that it was impossible to bring the carnal mind into subjection to the will of God. You seem to think that the holy spirit performs behavior modification on the natural body after salvation. However, if I held the law of God up to you right now, you would fall short.
No. We have PM'd him several times about you though, expressing our concern for you. No response yet. Maybe you're having better luck communicating with him.
You misunderstand me. But I shouldn't be surprised. Paul stopped killing Christians, did he not? Why? Because Christ affected Him. The way He affected me with pornography. And Paul did not persist in "sin," either. And neither do I. He was no longer a slave to sin, and neither am I. Do I fal, every now and then? Yes. But I am not condemned.
I know that I fall short of the law. And I know I will not stop falling short, until heaven...however, I am free from the law.
elohiym
Well-known member
Seems I'm not alone.
So if you EVER lapse, and look at pornography again, then He never affected YOU, and, in fact, NEVER knew you. Isn't that correct? Or do you just apply that standard to homosexuals?
Under the law, all you did was sin, and if your natural body were alive, it would be condemned by the law right now. The only reason you do not persist in sin is because God freed you from the law by using the law itself. Without that gift from God your righteousness is filthy rags and you are no better than the worst of sinners.
You are condemned, if you judge and condemn others. The parable of the wicked servant that was forgiven his debt, but would not forgive his neighbor's debt is a great example of that.
Then allow the homosexual to be free from the law, without having to modify her behavior as a condition of salvation, especially since your body is dead because of sin. Allow her body to be dead because of sin, too. And if you don't expect her to modify her behavior as a condition of salvation, then for God's sake don't expect her to cease from what she cannot cease as evidence of her salvation.
"Born Again" is a metaphor for new life in Christ or spiritual birth from above/anew (see Greek words). It is one of several analogies/metaphors to describe salvation (cf. flesh/sin).
I previously posted the differences between spiritual and physical birth. The context and cultural/grammatical background of Jn. 3 is relevant. Nicodemus made the same mistake taking the metaphor too literally leading to absurdity. Jesus corrected him and showed what spiritual birth is (different than physical birth). You make the logical error of assuming that physical and spiritual birth are identical in every sense. This analogy has been used by OSAS as a feeble argument to support the doctrine. 'You can't be unborn' assumes salvation is metaphysical, not moral or relational. This is a fundamental error.
Life in the Son by Robert Shank (Ch. 7 'Born of God') describes the nature of spiritual rebirth contrasted with physical birth. In the end, it is not an argument to support OSAS.
Sozo
New member
I thought I would step in for a moment to remind everyone that godrulz is FULL OF CRAP!!
"For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."
"...whoever believes may in Him have eternal life"
"...whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life".
He who believes in the Son has eternal life!
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life".
"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life"
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life"
"I came that they might have life"
"I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand"
"I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies"
"And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent"
"...these have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."
Salvation is life! The life of God! It is eternal!
What do we receive when we believe? LIFE!!
"Go your way, stand and speak to the people in the temple the whole message of this Life"
"For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ"
"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."
"...as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord"
"For if their rejection be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?"
"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me".
"For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God"
"When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory"
"Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, according to the promise of life in Christ Jesus"
"...but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel"
"...being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life"
"And this is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life."
"And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son"
"He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life"
"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life "
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.
If you have the Son, you have LIFE! You don't get life, you have life.
"It is the Spirit who gives life "
"He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive"
"...you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."
"Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?"
"...your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own"
"for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."
"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise"
"And we know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us."
"By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit."
Salvation is receiving the very LIFE of God!
LightSon
New member
Interesting.
I tend to side with godrulz on most everthing; I can think of 2 exceptions.
I'm compelled to give this point to Sozo. My salvation (actually the Life of Christ) is given to me based upon the obedience of One (that is Christ), and that salvation is kept by His obedience. My salvation can't be lost based upon my own disobedience.
I tend to side with godrulz on most everthing; I can think of 2 exceptions.
I'm compelled to give this point to Sozo. My salvation (actually the Life of Christ) is given to me based upon the obedience of One (that is Christ), and that salvation is kept by His obedience. My salvation can't be lost based upon my own disobedience.
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