A Peculiar Kind of Gospel

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Lighthouse

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Originally posted by godrulz

I am listening, but I am not understanding your view. God says certain things are sin. You say an unbeliever who murders sins, but if a believer shoots someone it is not sin and is not counted against them?!
Shoots someone, or murders them. Shooting in self-defense is never a sin. You should make yourself more clear.

Anyway, it is not counted against them, i.e., they are not condemned for it.

God commands repentance and obedience.
No. god effects repentance and obedience.

You suggest we just have to accept blanket forgiveness for past, present, and future sins.
We have to accept more than that. We have to accept that we are not condemned. We have to accept that we are not slaves to sin. We have to accept that we are slaves to righteousness. We have to submit to Christ. Yet, it is by His grace that we submit.

This would not stand up to a judge in any court of law based on a Judeo-Christian ethic. If a Christian murders someone (theoretically possible if we can shoot a deer), how is it that it is not counted against us and we are let off with no consequences.
Temporally we would, and should, suffer the consequences. Even as someone in Christ. But eternally there is no condemnation.

If this murderer feels guilt and hardens his heart and drifts from God to the point of rejecting His love, grace, and provision, why is it not counted against him?
This person never accepted the love,grace, or provision.

He has immunity while the poor religious unbeliever goes to jail and hell for the identical act, thought, and motive?
religious unbeliever, what?

Why not call sin, sin? You dance around it by saying it is flesh, unprofitable acts, or bad choices (which we are supposedly not responsible for/flesh, even if we chose to yield to it, contrary to the Spirit).
I never said we weren't responsible for our choices, you dolt.:doh:

Sin is transgression of the law. And where there is no law, there is no transgression. Right? So those who are not under the law do not sin, by definition.

Your theology will not allow for the possibility of a believer to sin, so you argue in circles to avoid the obvious ( I reiterate that the norm is for believers to not sin and to not yield to the flesh).
The disagreement here is the definition of sin. I am not going in circles. You're just not following. I agree that the norm is for believers to act morally, and not yield to the flesh. And I agree that they can yield to the flesh.

Romans 11:29 is NOT talking about individual salvation and destiny. It is talking about the corporate election of Israel and roles/offices/responsibilities. The nation of Israel was called to bring forth the law and Messiah. Despite their rebellion, their calling remained to be the people of God. This is rarely used as a proof text for OSAS (there are much better ones), and demonstrates your tendency to read your ideas back into texts.
If the gifts and call of God are without repentance, then all gifts and all calls of God are without repentance. That includes when God calls you to Him, for salvation. I did not just randomly read that verse, and assume that it meant what I said it meant. It was part of the sermon at my church, Sunday. And I agree with what my pastor said about it.

I agree that we should emphasize our hope and victory in Christ to be holy as He is holy (NT command). We should recognize, by faith, our newness of life in Christ and walk in this truth. I merely am trying to point out (cf. Paul; John) that it is theoretically possible to sin and that their is still provision if we do (I Jn. 1:9...commonly applied to unbelievers in evangelistic tracts, but actually about believers if the context is closely examined).
Ummm, no. 1 John 1 is to unbelievers, period. At least three verses in the chapter show that. The only application it has to believers is to remind us that we have been cleansed form all unrighteousness. And the verses that talk about provision are in 1 John 2. 1 John 1:9 says nothing about provision. Your sins are forgiven. Get over it.
 

godrulz

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I think you are making some logical and interpretative errors/assumptions.

We are not held responsible for self-defense in court or biblical times. This is different than premeditated murder.

How is it that an earthly judge is more truthful, righteous, and just in dealing with murder than the Holy Moral Governor of the universe who gave the law in the first place (in your view)?

Forgiveness is conditional on repentance or we would persist in heinous evil with no consequences. God would not be just and holy to let us get away with 'murder' (what if the believer was never caught on earth by police or courts?). So, if we worship idols, murder, commit adultery as a believer, if we are not caught on earth we will also get away with it in eternity? Is there no accountability and reckoning because we are not under the law and cannot be condemned? What happens at the Bema Seat Judgment of believers?

Scripture is silent on some of these details, but it is a big assumption to think that Christians can get away with anything and everything. Heb. 12 talks about the Father disciplining us for our own good. Paul talked about turning the sinning brother over to Satan that his soul would be saved in the end.

James 5:19, 20 "My BROTHERS (believers), IF (conditional) one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back (not foregone conclusion that they will come back), remember this: Whoever turns a SINNER (I thought you said believers cannot sin or fall away) away from his error will save him from death and cover over a multitude of SINS (I thought they were not sins and could not be held against the person even if they did not repent?)."
 

elohiym

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Originally posted by lighthouse

Sin is transgression of the law. And where there is no law, there is no transgression. Right? So those who are not under the law do not sin, by definition.
Where did the law go? Isn't your body dead presently because of sin?
 

Lighthouse

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Originally posted by godrulz

I think you are making some logical and interpretative errors/assumptions.
I made no assumption. I knew what you meant. I was showing you that you need to be clearer.

We are not held responsible for self-defense in court or biblical times. This is different than premeditated murder.
:duh:

How is it that an earthly judge is more truthful, righteous, and just in dealing with murder than the Holy Moral Governor of the universe who gave the law in the first place (in your view)?
When did I ever say that. I never even said that God doesn't desire that temporal consequences be in place. I know He wants them there, for believers and non-believers alike. Eternal consequences are completely different.

Forgiveness is conditional on repentance or we would persist in heinous evil with no consequences.
No, it's not. Forgiveness is conditional on the cross. And the cross has come and gone, and it's accomplishment lives on. We were forgiven before we even asked. Acceptance is the key to a relationship with Christ. And in Christ there is no darkness. Repentance is not volitional. It is effected by God, through His grace. Our desires change, by His grace, and we then walk in repentance. We don't just choose to repent. we desire to repent, because He made us desire to repent. He is the author and finisher of our faith.

God would not be just and holy to let us get away with 'murder' (what if the believer was never caught on earth by police or courts?).
A real man of God would turn himself in. And would also repent.

So, if we worship idols, murder, commit adultery as a believer, if we are not caught on earth we will also get away with it in eternity?
Believers do not worship idols. As for the other two, they wouldn't get away with it on Earth. God would find them where they are, and work them to repentance. If they can ignore God's call, then they are not His. And never were.

Is there no accountability and reckoning because we are not under the law and cannot be condemned?
Not in eternity. But before? Yes, there is reckoning and accountability.

What happens at the Bema Seat Judgment of believers?
The blood is shown to have cleansed us from our sin.

Scripture is silent on some of these details, but it is a big assumption to think that Christians can get away with anything and everything. Heb. 12 talks about the Father disciplining us for our own good. Paul talked about turning the sinning brother over to Satan that his soul would be saved in the end.
I never said anything about getting away with anything. You assume to much, and it leads you in the wrong direction. No wonder you won't listen, you've already decided you don't agree with what you think I'm saying. The problem is that I don't agree with what you assume I'm saying.

James 5:19, 20 "My BROTHERS (believers), IF (conditional) one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back (not foregone conclusion that they will come back), remember this: Whoever turns a SINNER (I thought you said believers cannot sin or fall away) away from his error will save him from death and cover over a multitude of SINS (I thought they were not sins and could not be held against the person even if they did not repent?)."
1] It speaks of one wandering from the truth. I.e., someone like you. just because this person believes doesn't mean they are in Christ. I said that those who are truly in Christ will not walk away.

2]The biggest idiocy on your part is the assumption that I believe the unrepentant are saved. One who is in Christ will repent. And it is only those who are in Christ whose sins are not counted against them. Put two and two together, godrulz.
 

elohiym

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Originally posted by godrulz

God would not be just and holy to let us get away with 'murder' (what if the believer was never caught on earth by police or courts?).
Remember that little matter with David and Uriah? The law required David's life for Uriah's life, yet God went against his own law. I guess, based on your statement, you'd have to say God is unjust and unholy because he let David get away with murder, and went against his own law. Not only that, God also let David keep his victims wife, who got to live despite her adultery.

Are you missing the message?
 

godrulz

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Originally posted by elohiym

Where did the law go? Isn't your body dead presently because of sin?

Believer's bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Unbelievers' bodies are alive until the heart stops (I am a paramedic...trust me).

Flesh is a metaphor for sin. The body can be used to help or hurt, to worship God or kill people. The Greek idea that only spirit is good and body is bad is not the Pauline concept. Jesus had a body.

The biblical concept of 'death' is more to do with separation, not cessation of existence (spiritual death= separated from relationship with God; physical death= body and soul/spirit separated; eternal death= individual separated from God for eternity).
 

godrulz

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Originally posted by elohiym

Remember that little matter with David and Uriah? The law required David's life for Uriah's life, yet God went against his own law. I guess, based on your statement, you'd have to say God is unjust and unholy because he let David get away with murder, and went against his own law. Not only that, God also let David keep his victims wife, who got to live despite her adultery.

Are you missing the message?

Justice is one aspect. Mercy and grace also are factors, but must be extended wisely to uphold the claims of the law (e.g. substitute a penalty). David did suffer consequences, including the death of his child.

God is God and was not unjust in His dealings. David also had a repentant heart with new obedience. Had he not, he would have been dealt with differently.

"Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?" Gen. 18:25
 

billwald

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Apoligige for jumping into the middle but you all keep in mind that Reconstructionists believe;

1. Only they are "true" Christians.

2. When they rule, there will be no civil law for them because the Holy Spirit rules their lives.

3. They will impose the Mosiac Covenant on every one else because no one else but Reconstructionists have the HS ruling their lives.
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by lighthouse

"Plato's challenge concerning the nature of goodness is still being heard today: Is an act right because God says it's so, or does God say it's so because it's right?"

God says so, because it's right. I have always held that position.
Because denotes causation. Your statement would tend to indicate that you believe there is "right" and "wrong" apart from your deity, am I understanding you correctly?

If so, then what is the standard that your deity uses to determine whether some action is "right" or not?

That is what I said. However, it is not counted against them as sin. They are not under condemnation. So, I don't call it sin. Mostly because sin is transgression of the law, Christians are not under the law, and apart from the law there is no transgression.
So you're merely playing word games, eh?

Answer a hypothetical question then...

If a "righteous" man, i.e. a "born-again believer", performs an abortion on a "righteous" woman, another "born-again believer", has either of them sinned? :think:

If one is in Christ, and knows the truth...and allows Christ to work within them, as He wants to, then His desires replace theirs and they lose the desire to commit immoral acts. And therefore, they can no longer be tempted.
That is both a pretty large "if" and, from what I can see, a pretty rare occurence among the Christians with whom I am aquainted.

When they were valid there were sins that were morally neutral.
How can a sin be morally neutral?

However, disobeying God is immoral, in and of itself. If He were to tell someone, directly, to do, or not to do, something, and they disobeyed, even though the command had nothing to do with morality, that person still disobeyed God, directly.
Your argument doesn't make sense, because, in your belief system, disobeying God is not morally neutral, but a transgression of the vilest sort. Remember it was a single act of disobedience (outside the law, by the way) that Christians believe doomed the entire human race...
The divergence exists, because people don't submit to Him. When one submits to Christ, then His will replaces theirs.
So Christians lose their free will and become inhabited by another mind?
 

godrulz

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I think we need clarification on lighthouse's views. I have been a believer 25 years and Zak had theology background and atheism now. We both are finding some statements contradictory or incoherent (based on experience, Scripture, and logic).
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by godrulz

I think we need clarification on lighthouse's views. I have been a believer 25 years and Zak had theology background and atheism now. We both are finding some statements contradictory or incoherent (based on experience, Scripture, and logic).
That would be nice, wouldn't it... :thumb:
 

Batman

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Holy bad logic, Batman!

Holy bad logic, Batman!

Hey guys, I'm back!

I have to agree with godrulz. Some clarification is needed. Also I would appreciate it if lighthouse would post an opposing reply to my posts that makes some logical sense! He seems to think I don't understand the concept of conscience when I talked about it in my last reply.
 

Lighthouse

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Originally posted by Zakath

Because denotes causation. Your statement would tend to indicate that you believe there is "right" and "wrong" apart from your deity, am I understanding you correctly?
Yes, you are.

If so, then what is the standard that your deity uses to determine whether some action is "right" or not?
He's omniscient.

So you're merely playing word games, eh?
No. I'm going by the biblical definition of sin, and what the Bible says about the law's relationship to sin.

Answer a hypothetical question then...

If a "righteous" man, i.e. a "born-again believer", performs an abortion on a "righteous" woman, another "born-again believer", has either of them sinned? :think:
1] Why would either of them do that, if they are born again? A born again Christian would not do such a thing.

But, since this is hypothetical:
2] No. Neither of them have sinned. They have committed a wrong, and God will deal with them...leading them to repentance for their immorality.

That is both a pretty large "if" and, from what I can see, a pretty rare occurence among the Christians with whom I am aquainted.
Yers, it is. And I used to believe otherwise. Until I read what the scriptures said. And that knowledge changed my life. I immediately lost the temptation to look at pornography. And now there are other areas in which the Lord will remove temptation from me.

How can a sin be morally neutral?
In the times between God giving the Mosaic law and Christ's death on the cross it would have been a sin for a Jew to eat shrimp. Or to wear mixed linens. Neither of those are related to morality. They are morally netral. and those are only two of the laws that were morally neutral.

Your argument doesn't make sense, because, in your belief system, disobeying God is not morally neutral, but a transgression of the vilest sort.
It makes perfect sense, if you pay attention.

Remember it was a single act of disobedience (outside the law, by the way) that Christians believe doomed the entire human race...
It wasn't outside the law. There was a law at that time. The command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That was a law. And Adam and Eve transgressed it.

So Christians lose their free will and become inhabited by another mind?
They don't lose their free will. Their will is replaced by that of God. His will becomes their will. And then they exercise their free will, because they follow their desires. They do as they plaese, because their desires are the same as His desires. They are inhabited by another mind.
 

Lighthouse

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Originally posted by godrulz

I think we need clarification on lighthouse's views. I have been a believer 25 years and Zak had theology background and atheism now. We both are finding some statements contradictory or incoherent (based on experience, Scripture, and logic).
Well, if you'd quit trying to base it on experience and logic, and focus only on scripture...

God's thoughts are above our thoughts. If we desire to grow in Him, we must not lean on our own understanding. You are leaning on your own idea of what makes sense, and not on God's.

I have experienced freedom from sin. And just because you haven't, that doesn't mean that I am wrong and you are right. In fact, it means quite the opposite. Because truth is what sets people free. And lies and fallacies keep them in bondage.
 

Lighthouse

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Re: Holy bad logic, Batman!

Re: Holy bad logic, Batman!

Originally posted by Batman

Hey guys, I'm back!

I have to agree with godrulz. Some clarification is needed. Also I would appreciate it if lighthouse would post an opposing reply to my posts that makes some logical sense! He seems to think I don't understand the concept of conscience when I talked about it in my last reply.
Go through my reply to you, and reply back. This is an exchange. If you feel I misinterpreted your views on conscience, clarify them.
 

godrulz

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Who drives your can and writes your exams? The will and mind of God? or do we have genuine self-determination in the mundane and moral choices of life? There seems to be inconsistency in your arguments. To state that abortion is not sin for a believer, but a 'wrong', is a semantical side step to support your ideas.

Freedom in Christ did not just come from adopting your way of thinking. Others experience equal freedom with a differing view. Ultimately, you have to chose to not expose yourself to pornography. You could if you so chosed, but you do not. If you stumbled on porn, God would not forcefully close your eyes or make you immune from the possible temptation. Job made a covenant with his eyes to not look lustfully at a woman. Paul exhorts us to not lust. It is not just a matter of thinking one is free from sin. The Spirit enables us to not fall into sin, but this does not negate the possibility of sinning in defiance of God's will.
 

Lighthouse

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Originally posted by godrulz

Who drives your can and writes your exams? The will and mind of God? or do we have genuine self-determination in the mundane and moral choices of life? There seems to be inconsistency in your arguments. To state that abortion is not sin for a believer, but a 'wrong', is a semantical side step to support your ideas.
My can?

Sorry. I know you meant car. And, right now, no one drives my car. I don't have one. Never have. And I don't have exams, either.

Anyway, to get on with your actual point...I never said that everything we do is completely based on God's will. I'm not a Calvinist, godrulz. You might want to give thinking before you type a try. We have choices in the mundane. We have choices in the moral. But those in Christ have the mind of Christ, and will, more often than not, choose His desires. Why? Because, having His mind, that is what they also desire. Do you see where I'm going with this? Now, that is in the moral and even in some things that are not specifically a moral issue. But the mundane, not an issue with God. I could choose to quit posting on TOL, and it wouldn't matter one way or the other. I would not be disobeying God either way. Now, do you agree that those who are not under the law do not transgress the law? If so, where is our disagreement? It is in nothing more than definition. And I'm going on what the Bible says, verbatim. You're not.

Freedom in Christ did not just come from adopting your way of thinking.
It did for me.

Others experience equal freedom with a differing view.
Care to citre support for this? Have you experienced freedom from sin? Or are you still tempted?

Ultimately, you have to chose to not expose yourself to pornography.
No I don't. I have come across pornography many times since I learned the truth about my freedom. It was in places it was not supposed to be. And before I knew freedom, I would have been sucked righth back into seeking porn out. But that is no longer an issue. I saw what was there, and I simply didn't care. I went somewhere else. And never looked back. Well, not in an attempt to seek porn, anyway. I can explain that later.

You could if you so chosed, but you do not. If you stumbled on porn, God would not forcefully close your eyes or make you immune from the possible temptation.
See above. I am immune from the temptation. And I know I didn't do that on my own.

Job made a covenant with his eyes to not look lustfully at a woman.
Before, or after the blood of Christ? That's what I thought.

Paul exhorts us to not lust. It is not just a matter of thinking one is free from sin.
Wrong. It's a matter of knowing the truth. We are free from sin. We are dead to sin. We are no longer slaves to sin. We are slaves to righteousness. That is what the word of God says, and it is what I believe, and know to be true. All you ever do is deny the word of God. I used to be like you. Thinking that I knew the word of God. I knew it said I was free from sin. I knew it said I was dead to sin. But my life screamed that I was not. Why? Because I didn't truly believe what the word of God says. Now I do. And I have experienced the greatest freedom anyone could ever experience.

The Spirit enables us to not fall into sin, but this does not negate the possibility of sinning in defiance of God's will.
I never said it did. We can defy God's will, yes. But if we are in Christ we will repent, because He leads us to repentance, because He makes us righteous, and we are not under any condemnation. And the more we understand the truth, the less we defy God's will. Until we don't even defy it at all.
 

elohiym

Well-known member
Originally posted by godrulz

Believer's bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. Unbelievers' bodies are alive until the heart stops (I am a paramedic...trust me).
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body (1 Corinthians 15:44).
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:20
The natural body is dead (crucified) because of sin and the spiritual body (Temple/Christ in me) is alive.
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Romans 8:10
Whether or not you have a heart beat does not discern life from death, biblically speaking.
Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.
We are freed from sin, godrulz, because we are dead, and dead to the law.
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. Romans 7:4
Our natural bodies are technically dead, from God's perspective, because flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom. And if someone is never born again in the spirit, then that person will remain dead and unlimately experience the second death.
Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God. Luke 9:60
Even Jesus saw the living as "dead".
 

godrulz

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Originally posted by lighthouse

My can?

Sorry. I know you meant car. And, right now, no one drives my car. I don't have one. Never have. And I don't have exams, either.

Anyway, to get on with your actual point...I never said that everything we do is completely based on God's will. I'm not a Calvinist, godrulz. You might want to give thinking before you type a try. We have choices in the mundane. We have choices in the moral. But those in Christ have the mind of Christ, and will, more often than not, choose His desires. Why? Because, having His mind, that is what they also desire. Do you see where I'm going with this? Now, that is in the moral and even in some things that are not specifically a moral issue. But the mundane, not an issue with God. I could choose to quit posting on TOL, and it wouldn't matter one way or the other. I would not be disobeying God either way. Now, do you agree that those who are not under the law do not transgress the law? If so, where is our disagreement? It is in nothing more than definition. And I'm going on what the Bible says, verbatim. You're not.


It did for me.


Care to citre support for this? Have you experienced freedom from sin? Or are you still tempted?


No I don't. I have come across pornography many times since I learned the truth about my freedom. It was in places it was not supposed to be. And before I knew freedom, I would have been sucked righth back into seeking porn out. But that is no longer an issue. I saw what was there, and I simply didn't care. I went somewhere else. And never looked back. Well, not in an attempt to seek porn, anyway. I can explain that later.


See above. I am immune from the temptation. And I know I didn't do that on my own.


Before, or after the blood of Christ? That's what I thought.


Wrong. It's a matter of knowing the truth. We are free from sin. We are dead to sin. We are no longer slaves to sin. We are slaves to righteousness. That is what the word of God says, and it is what I believe, and know to be true. All you ever do is deny the word of God. I used to be like you. Thinking that I knew the word of God. I knew it said I was free from sin. I knew it said I was dead to sin. But my life screamed that I was not. Why? Because I didn't truly believe what the word of God says. Now I do. And I have experienced the greatest freedom anyone could ever experience.


I never said it did. We can defy God's will, yes. But if we are in Christ we will repent, because He leads us to repentance, because He makes us righteous, and we are not under any condemnation. And the more we understand the truth, the less we defy God's will. Until we don't even defy it at all.

Well, I can actually agree in principle with the gist of your post. I think you are experiencing victorious living in Christ and walking in the Spirit rather than the flesh. The degree to which your will vs God's will is involved is a subject of debate among the 5 major views of sanctification. You are describing a life lived in Christ. I agree this should be normative, but it is not. You are suggesting the key to victory. I am trying to suggest that not every believer always walks in submission to the Spirit and Word. You implied you did not always have victory, yet you were still a believer. Some of your statements would seem to imply that you logically could not be a believer if you experienced previous temptations in your Christian life or that those 'sins' were not really sins. Your thoughts on why you are free from temptation tells me that you are living in Christ. To say that any believer should never be tempted or cannot possibly fall into sin seems contradictory to Scripture and the experience of godly people in the OT, NT, and the modern Church Age. I do not think some of your other ideas logically follow from your experience. We cannot put our experience above the Word.

Do not be surprised if someday you do yield to temptation, have a wrong thought or motive, etc. You will sense the Spirit convicting you of sin bringing you to repentance and renewed obedience (your passive, unilateral idea of sanctification does not square with all the verses). Also do not be surprised if a godly person or leader falls and is not restored. This would contradict your theology, which should not be confused with perfect Bible interpretation. To say they were never a believer is convenient but not necessary. To say their apostasy is not terminal or not really sin is equally unrealistic.

Your life experience must be limited if you do not know the heartbreak of loved ones who once served God and are now far from Him. Many do return, but some do not. How are you going to comfort these people, Pastor Lighthouse? Mature believers will not buy the idea that their teen was never a believer or that they are still going to heaven despite rejecting Christ and now living for Satan. It is a warfare, man. I still maintain your ideas need some refining to square with biblical reality.
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by lighthouse

... I am immune from the temptation. And I know I didn't do that on my own.

I bet those little voices in your head help, don't they, Lighthouse... :kookoo:

The only human adults I've ever come across who were immune to temptation were either corpses or mentally defective...

... since you're supposedly typing these posts, guess which category I think you fit into?

:darwinsm:
 
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