A Peculiar Kind of Gospel

Status
Not open for further replies.

Lawless

New member
Godrulz is saved by his own works I guess! He limits the blood of Jesus to himself and his actions.....What a trampling under foot, of the presious blood of Jesus. Why would you limit the Love, mercy, and grace of Jesus Godrulz? How will you answer to the lord for it?

Sozo, your post are eloquently spoken! Well done!
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Originally posted by Sozo

You want proof that you preach another gospel? Well, there it is! Do you seriously not see how incredibly self-righteous those comments are? YOU must be blind!!

Please tell us, godrulz, how you qualified yourself today, based on the Law, not to be found guilty of sin? YOU are a blasphemer! You are anti-Christ, and pro-flesh righteousness! How can you not see that? It can only be because you do not have the Spirit of God. May you be accursed! In other words, the blood of Jesus is only as good as you are!

If anyone else agrees with that egregious statement from godrulz, please speak up!

These comments relate to whether one can become apostate. If you reject Once Saved Always Saved then it is possible to become an unbeliever and be lost. If you think we lose free will at salvation and remain a believer despite renouncing your faith and returning to Satan worship and child sacrifices, then you are correct.

If we are in Christ, we are saved.

If we renounce Christ and the Gospel, we are no longer saved.

My points were not relating to flesh vs Spirit issues as a genuine believer...so chill.

Many evangelicals reject OSAS. Calvinists and Enyartists affirm it. I reject it on the basis of the biblical evidence. Whether we believe it or not is not a heaven-hell issue academically. It could be if we think we can trust Christ and Satan at the same time and still be saved.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Originally posted by Lawless

Godrulz is saved by his own works I guess! He limits the blood of Jesus to himself and his actions.....What a trampling under foot, of the presious blood of Jesus. Why would you limit the Love, mercy, and grace of Jesus Godrulz? How will you answer to the lord for it?

Sozo, your post are eloquently spoken! Well done!

I fully affirm that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works (Eph. 2:8-10; Rom. 1-6). You folks lack the critical thinking skills to understand my points, but jump to conclusions because it is not an articulation that you are familiar with.

I do not limit the love and grace of Christ. What I suggest is that He commands us to be holy as He is holy. This is explicit. Easy believism is a false gospel where people parrot a prayer with their lips and have no evidence of love for God or others because they continue to live for Self vs God. They have a false sense of security and think salvation is saying I believe (like the devil does). One does not just go to a Billy Graham crusade and repeat a prayer as fire insurance from hell and then continue in their former life of godlessness and sin. The NT Gospel challenges us to turn from sin and trust Christ as Lord and Savior. It means dying to self and following Him for the rest of our lives.
 

Lawless

New member
Quote: Godrulz:
Many evangelicals reject OSAS. Calvinists and Enyartists affirm it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------





What is a Enyartist?
 

Crow

New member
Originally posted by Lawless

Quote: Godrulz:
Many evangelicals reject OSAS. Calvinists and Enyartists affirm it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------





What is a Enyartist?

That is a term that is used around this place to describe those who agree with Bob Enyart.

Bob Enyart is now a pastor, and he has a radio show. In the past, he had a television show for several years. The best way I can explain what he's all about is let some of the things he's written and said speak for him.

The Plot

Home Page

Sermon on Luke 22:63-65 and Crime (audio)

Debate: Does God exist

He believes that salvation is by grace, not works. And he affirms OSAS.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
I appreciate Pastor Enyart (what little I know about him). I realize we do not follow men, but this forum does have people supportive of his ministry.

OSAS is usually associated with Calvinism (tuliP). Enyart adopts some Open Theism ideas, but also OSAS. Open Theism is more a sub-type of Arminianism (as opposed to hyper-Calvinisn). Arminians are usually not OSAS.

This is not a salvific issue, but I think OSAS is logically incompatible with libertarian freedom (free moral agency).

Robert Shank (Southern Baptist...ironically) has a classic exegetical work dealing with the perseverance of the saints: 'Life in the Son." He cogently refutes OSAS looking at relevant texts used by both camps (some verses are claimed by both sides, so it is a matter of translation/interpretation).
 

Batman

New member
Hebrews 10

Hebrews 10

It's time I start putting my 2 cents in. I've been a member for a long time but rarely post. Now that I'm a youth pastor, I'd like to start debating more to keep myself sharp. Also I'm getting tired of threads full of bad interpretation of Biblical passages, like this one. BTW, I'm on godrulz side for this thread. Why? I'll just point out one passage that Sozo has used - Hebrews 10.

If you place the parts of Heb 10 Sozo has used in the context of the rest of the chapter and the entire book, Paul doesn't say we will never sin once we are saved. He does say that once we are saved we are made perfect, meaning that all our past sins are forgiven and will be remembered no more (as in forever). If we reject Christ, either by not accepting Him or turning away from, we can turn to no one else for salvation for He is the only way and the once-for-all sacrifice.

Besides, Paul even implies in Heb 10 that a believer can sin b/c he tells them to persevere so they can receive what God has promised; consequently, if they don't persevere, they won't receive.
 

Sozo

New member
Batman... it is a tragedy that someone of your limted biblical knowledge is placed in a position of teaching young people a false gospel.

It is also a tragedy that you are using Batman as a user ID. Batman would never be as ignorant as you.

Anyone who believes or teaches the possibilty that salvation can be lost is anti-Christ. They are enemies of the cross, and have never been born again.

You do not know what salvation is, nor have you been saved.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Originally posted by julie21

...jumping in at the deep end...
If I was a believer pre Crucifixion, then I fell under the Law andany sin I committed was atoned for by the action of burnt offerings and other offerings through the Priesthood.

When Jesus spoke to the adultress woman, His words to her were "Go and sin no more." He did not tell her that He would make it impossible for her to not sin again. His death covered the sins of all believers, and was the new covenant that God made with us...that we could have eternal life if we believe in Him...not...if we never sin again.
I believe in Him, and that it is by His grace, not works, that I am saved.
But, believing does not stop me making sinful choices...it does make me aware afterwards that I have sinned,and so must strive to not repeat my sinful choice.
I was not made perfect. The one who died for me is, and I believe that He forgives me for my imperfections,when I ask Him, as long as I keep trying to be more like Him.
You're new, so I'm going to help you out here. Christ died once, for all. All sin, for all time, was forgiven. You were forgiven, before you even asked. One confession is all it takes to be made righteous, in God's sight. And He lives in you. No sin is in Him. Therefore, you do not sin. Your flesh does, but you are no longer your flesh. Your flesh is dead. And Christ, living in you, keeps you. He aligns you with His will. So it is not anything you do to keep from doing somehting wrong, it is Christ who keeps you from it. If you submit/surrender to Him. And He will remove your desires, and replace them with His own. You are not your own. You were bought with a price.
 

Batman

New member
Kapow! Bam!

Kapow! Bam!

In two ways I'm like Batman:

1. Unlike you, I use logic and deductive reasoning (not to mention prayer and the Holy Spirit) when studying Scripture.

2. I think people like you should be locked away and heavily medicated so the good citizens of this fair city can live in peace.

BTW, attacking me won't get you anywhere and I would beware of sitting in God's judgment seat when you accuse me of not being saved. Try responding to my post, evil-doer!
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Originally posted by godrulz

(...I am bought with a price...how dare you negate the work of Christ and my relationship with Him...).
You do that all on your own, godrulz.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Re: Hebrews 10

Re: Hebrews 10

Originally posted by Batman

It's time I start putting my 2 cents in. I've been a member for a long time but rarely post. Now that I'm a youth pastor, I'd like to start debating more to keep myself sharp. Also I'm getting tired of threads full of bad interpretation of Biblical passages, like this one. BTW, I'm on godrulz side for this thread. Why? I'll just point out one passage that Sozo has used - Hebrews 10.

If you place the parts of Heb 10 Sozo has used in the context of the rest of the chapter and the entire book, Paul doesn't say we will never sin once we are saved. He does say that once we are saved we are made perfect, meaning that all our past sins are forgiven and will be remembered no more (as in forever). If we reject Christ, either by not accepting Him or turning away from, we can turn to no one else for salvation for He is the only way and the once-for-all sacrifice.

Besides, Paul even implies in Heb 10 that a believer can sin b/c he tells them to persevere so they can receive what God has promised; consequently, if they don't persevere, they won't receive.
Paul wrote Hebrews?!:confused:

That fallacy aside, John wrote that sin is transgression of the law. No other definition of sin is given in the Bible. Paul writes that apart from the law there is no transgression. Paul also writes that we are not under the law, but under grace. And he writes that the law, including the ten commandments, was nailed to the cross, with Christ. As was all sin.

How many times did Christ die, Batman? Does He continually die? Do you have to aks His forgivness eery time you do something wrong, or is once, as long as it's sincere, enough? How many times do you think you need to be forgiven? Do you think you can lose your salvation? Do you think you can actually walk away from God? Would you? Would He let you? Would He ever leave you?

It is my contention that you have no idea who is responsible for your salvation. You probably htink that you're responsible for your faith, as well. Don't you?
 

Batman

New member
Batman is better than Superman!

Batman is better than Superman!

lighthouse quote:
"Paul wrote Hebrews?!"

Sorry, I got carried away in commentary. Although, I think he's the best candidate for the mystery author.

lighthouse quote:
"John wrote that sin is transgression of the law."

That being said, he also wrote the following in 1 John:
Chap. 1
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
Chap. 2
1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
Chap. 4
16If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

It's true that John defines sin as transgressing the law, but he also says any wrongdoing is sin and indicates that a Christian can sin.

lighthouse quote:
"Paul writes that apart from the law there is no transgression."

Actually apart from the law there is no knowledge of sin, for Paul also says in Romans 2:
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

And in Romans 3:
9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better[2] ? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.

Apparently people can sin apart from the law.

lighthouse quote:
"How many times did Christ die, Batman? Does He continually die?"

I anwered that - once.

lighthouse quote:
"Do you have to aks His forgivness eery time you do something wrong, or is once, as long as it's sincere, enough?"

Every time. 1 John speaks for itself.

lighthouse quote:
"Do you think you can lose your salvation?"

Yep. I've seen it happen one of two ways:

1. Going into a continual lifestyle of sin after once living for God.

2. An event happens in someone's life that makes him question God and eventually decide that He either doesn't exist or care.

In either case God will do everything He can to get him back, just look at David.
 

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by Crow

That is a term that is used around this place to describe those who agree with Bob Enyart.
The rest of us call them "Enyartians".

:chuckle:
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
Re: Batman is better than Superman!

Re: Batman is better than Superman!

Originally posted by Batman

lighthouse quote:
"Paul wrote Hebrews?!"

Sorry, I got carried away in commentary. Although, I think he's the best candidate for the mystery author.
Why? Especially since there is a difference in teachings...

lighthouse quote:
"John wrote that sin is transgression of the law."

That being said, he also wrote the following in 1 John:
Chap. 1
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
Chap. 2
1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
Chap. 4
16If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

It's true that John defines sin as transgressing the law, but he also says any wrongdoing is sin and indicates that a Christian can sin.
What Bible are you reading?! 1 John 4:16-17 say no such thing!

Wait, I found it. It's in chapter 5, not 4.

"If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death."
What version did yours come from? Do you think "wrongdoing" and "unrighteousness" mean the same thing? Are you unrighteous, or has God made you righteous?

Also, you forgot to read on:
"We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness."
-1 John 5:18-19

Have you been born of God? Does Christ live in you [Galatians 2:20]?

As for your interpretation of 1 John 1, think about it:
"If we say that we have no sin [have never sinned], then we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not siined, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

Also, 1 John 1:1-5 shows that it is written to the unbeliever.

Jesus is the advocate for sinners. His blood was shed for the forgiveness of all sin.
"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
-1 John 2:2

lighthouse quote:
"Paul writes that apart from the law there is no transgression."

Actually apart from the law there is no knowledge of sin, for Paul also says in Romans 2:
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
Context, context, context!:doh:
The Gentiles did not have the law, as the Jews did. But they still transgressed it, because they were not in Christ. the last tow verses prove the point I have presented. And they argue against your foundation.

As for your argument that apart from the law, there is no knowledge of sin, and that what I said was wrong:
"Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression."
-Romans 4:15

And in Romans 3:
9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better[2] ? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.
We are under sin, if we are not under grace. For in Christ, there is no sin.

Apparently people can sin apart from the law.
Not under grace, they can't. Are you going to suffer the wages of sin? Or did Christ suffer for you, already?

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
-Romans 6:23

Also:
"(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."
-Romans 5:13-14

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"
-Romans 6:1-2

"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin."
-Romans 6:6-7

"For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."
-Romans 6:10-11

"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."
-Romans 6:14

"But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness."
-Romans 6:17-18

"For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness."
-Romans 6:20

"But now being made free from sin, and become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life."
-Romans 6:22

lighthouse quote:
"How many times did Christ die, Batman? Does He continually die?"

I anwered that - once.
So, how many times need you confess?

lighthouse quote:
"Do you have to aks His forgivness every time you do something wrong, or is once, as long as it's sincere, enough?"

Every time. 1 John speaks for itself.
1 John 1:9? The verse that states that if you confess he will cleanse you from all unrighteouness? That verse tells me that once is enough. His dying once is enough. Why wouldn't one confession be enough? Why is it not enough for someone to admit their need for Christ once? Why must they do it multiple times? Is that not like crucifying Him over and over, again?

lighthouse quote:
"Do you think you can lose your salvation?"

Yep. I've seen it happen one of two ways:

1. Going into a continual lifestyle of sin after once living for God.
So you htink that someone who actually knows God would walk away from Him?:nono:

2. An event happens in someone's life that makes him question God and eventually decide that He either doesn't exist or care.
So, someone who once knew God, intimately, on a personal level, could actually deny His existence? You believe that?!
At what specific point is salvation lost? What makes you so certain that someone who walks away from God ever knew Him in the first place? Is it not more evident that those who leave were never saved?

Would you ever leave Him? Would He ever leave you?

In either case God will do everything He can to get him back, just look at David.
You think David lost his relationship with God?!:noway::shocked:

That's sad.:nono:
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Originally posted by Sozo

Batman... it is a tragedy that someone of your limted biblical knowledge is placed in a position of teaching young people a false gospel.

It is also a tragedy that you are using Batman as a user ID. Batman would never be as ignorant as you.

Anyone who believes or teaches the possibilty that salvation can be lost is anti-Christ. They are enemies of the cross, and have never been born again.

You do not know what salvation is, nor have you been saved.

Thus saith the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent sozo-god, judge of mortals on the internet.

OSAS is not a salvific doctrine. Sozo has no credibility or right to denounce our precious relationship with Christ because we are more Arminian than Calvinistic.

Robert Shank: Life in the Son...A study of the doctrine of perseverance (Southern Baptist) exegetically destroys the OSAS teaching that makes people think they can accept Christ at a crusade with no responsibility to continue in Him.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Re: Kapow! Bam!

Re: Kapow! Bam!

Originally posted by Batman

In two ways I'm like Batman:

1. Unlike you, I use logic and deductive reasoning (not to mention prayer and the Holy Spirit) when studying Scripture.

2. I think people like you should be locked away and heavily medicated so the good citizens of this fair city can live in peace.

BTW, attacking me won't get you anywhere and I would beware of sitting in God's judgment seat when you accuse me of not being saved. Try responding to my post, evil-doer!

A man with backbone. Be prepared to be blasted by sozo-god.

I would encourage you to use inductive vs deductive reasoning, and exegesis vs eisegesis.

When one cannot answer an argument, ad hominem attacks become the smoke screen.

God bless you in your ministry with youth. May the Spirit use you to raise up an army of disciples who will know their God and do exploits in His name for His glory. Onward, Christian soldiers!
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Originally posted by lighthouse

You do that all on your own, godrulz.

Judge not, lest you be judged. Take the board out of your eye before you take the toothpick out of someone else's eye.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Re: Re: Hebrews 10

Re: Re: Hebrews 10

Originally posted by lighthouse


That fallacy aside, John wrote that sin is transgression of the law. No other definition of sin is given in the Bible. Paul writes that apart from the law there is no transgression. Paul also writes that we are not under the law, but under grace. And he writes that the law, including the ten commandments, was nailed to the cross, with Christ. As was all sin.

Sin is lawlessness. Sin is a wrong moral choice. When someone broke the 10 commandments, their will and intellect was involved. Sin involves a volitional choice or we would not be accountable/responsible for breaking God's law. Deuteronomy talks about the Law of God in terms of volitional obedience/blessing or disobedience/cursing. The Bible does give other thoughts on the nature of sin. You are focusing on only one phrase that helps define the nature of sin.

You are stringing together ideas in a circular fashion to come up with wrong conclusions (like that it is impossible to apostasize).
 

1PeaceMaker

New member
Originally posted by godrulz

The OT is a different covenant than the NT.
Yes, The old covenant was "and if we do these things, it will be our righteousness". And that never workes for anyone. Abraham didn't first receive the old covanent; instead he got the new testament in a nutshell, as a promise BEFORE he was even circumcized, so he was not earning his way by works, but was called to be perfect, via his seed which was in him; Christ!
Originally posted by godrulz

David(believer): Against you only God have I sinned (repentance, humility, renewed obedience/worship).

NT (believer): I did the same thing as David (but God is blind due to the blood), but I am not under the law, so that means I did not really sin. I am free in Christ. I can continue with my affair if I want. I should not do it...wait...I CANNOT sin, so maybe this is just a dream or sin is no longer really sin. Maybe it was my twin brother?:doh:

You never read my post, did you? Prior to the adultery thing, David was anointed/sanctified, but not converted. That is why he sinned. Afterwards he found salvation and freedom from the law in Christ/his Seed, because had he been under the law in God's eyes before that incident, he would have been under a mountain of stones, like Achan, and would not have born Solomon, who then carried on the seed.

The old testament believers want and receive the same blessings. The only difference is one comes before the contract was sealed with Christ's blood, and the other comes after.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top