Freak challenges "The Plot" over miracles
- Thread starter 1Way
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Freak
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Thanks but answer my questions, that I asked earlier.
Are you so dense to actually believe the garbage that comes out of your mind? We are aware of spiritual gifts via the revealed Word of God. Were you aware of this?
Prove that. You base this on what evidence? Besides, I'm not a charismatic (I attend an Anglican Fellowship) and yet I believe in all of the spiritual gifts, due to the fact that we are told in Holy Scripture that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. Brumely, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc????
Furthermore...the Holy Scriptures don't seem to make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from the others when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).
This is your problem...you trust man over God. Scripture speaks of God giving His spiritual gifts to His people to minister to the hurting (See Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42).
Allow me to educate you...
According to the Dictionary, a miracle is defined as:
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin miraculum, from Latin, a wonder, marvel, from mirari to wonder at
Date: 12th century
1 : an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs
According to this definition a miracle would include the new birth. Christ indwelling the believer is a "an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs." Christ intervened in human affairs and manifested an extraordinary event--the new birth.
Are you dumbed down to the point of not being able to understand Scripture?
If Jesus’ miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles? The standard reply is that the apostles had to do miracles to show that they were trustworthy witnesses to Jesus Christ and trustworthy teachers of doctrine. But why couldn’t they just preach about the miracles as much of the church does today? Can’t we be regarded as trustworthy witnesses today without doing miracles? If we can, then why did the apostles need miracles?
At least six times in Paul’s writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christ’s example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Poster, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.
1Way
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DearDelmar - I don't believe that I've given a statement for a definition of what a miracle is. I agree that Freaks charge of me not being saved deserves a sharp rebuke, but I think that before anyone delves into a debate, the terms of the debate should be settled and used consistently for everyone's benefit.
I disagree with Freaks definition of what a maracle is, but I'm prepared to defend that view from scripture. And I do now know why Freak is laughing at your statement, I think you asked a very important question, although I think the answer is that drbrummley was disapproving of Freaks definition, not your concern for healing within the body of Christ. People are broken and hurting and a godly concern is raised towards unity and restoration, thanks for the kind words.
I like Enyart's definition "much" better, but I am wondering why Freak has not yet attacked it since he has supposedly read what Bob wrote on this issue. :think: I must leave and prepair for another weaks work, perhaps someone here would be so kind as to challeng Freak into faithfully representing Bob's definition on what a miracle is, and then challenge Freak to explain what is wrong with it.
See you all most likely next weekend. Blessings :1Way:
I disagree with Freaks definition of what a maracle is, but I'm prepared to defend that view from scripture. And I do now know why Freak is laughing at your statement, I think you asked a very important question, although I think the answer is that drbrummley was disapproving of Freaks definition, not your concern for healing within the body of Christ. People are broken and hurting and a godly concern is raised towards unity and restoration, thanks for the kind words.
I like Enyart's definition "much" better, but I am wondering why Freak has not yet attacked it since he has supposedly read what Bob wrote on this issue. :think: I must leave and prepair for another weaks work, perhaps someone here would be so kind as to challeng Freak into faithfully representing Bob's definition on what a miracle is, and then challenge Freak to explain what is wrong with it.
See you all most likely next weekend. Blessings :1Way:
Freak
New member
Share your testimony of how you were saved by Christ. Please be my guest.
I agree.
Earth to Mars...
It's not my defintion, it's the dictionary's.
According to the Dictionary, a miracle is defined as:
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin miraculum, from Latin, a wonder, marvel, from mirari to wonder at
Date: 12th century
1 : an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs
In terms of defining a word I'd rather stick with a dictionary then Enyart.
Here is the problem with that. I do know that Bob believes Jesus Christ is Changing lives today. So according to the "dictionary definition" he does believe in miracles.
In his writings Bob uses a different definition. More Than one dictionary does exsist after all. It is therfore apropriate to look at his writtings in light of the definition he provided. Not to do so distorts his meaning.
Originally posted by Zakath
OK.
It would reduce the confusion greatly if you'd just share what Enyart's definition of "miracle" is. Cite "The Plot" book, if possible.
Not trying to be vague. My copy of the book is on loan so I would have to paraphrase from memory. If I remember correctly in order to qualify as a miracle it would involve suspending the laws of the physical universe and would therefore not include spiritual and emotional healing.
The issue is probably about physical healing or creative miracles.
Rationalism will negate the supernatural power of God in one's mind and theology.
As for us Pentecostals who know the person and work of the Spirit:
Acts 4:29-31 "Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus. After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the Word of God boldly."
Ps. 68:28 "Summon your power, O God; show us your strength, O God, as you have done before."
Be glorified O Supernatural God.
Rationalism will negate the supernatural power of God in one's mind and theology.
As for us Pentecostals who know the person and work of the Spirit:
Acts 4:29-31 "Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus. After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the Word of God boldly."
Ps. 68:28 "Summon your power, O God; show us your strength, O God, as you have done before."
Be glorified O Supernatural God.