ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

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Lon

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I think Mr. Religion is trying to squirm out of this.

Are we talking a formal debate, with limited rounds and such?

Exactly what proposal are we going to use, and who has the affirmative?


Muz

No, I don't think he is 'squirming.' Is this baiting tactic? There has been an offer on the table, rejected. The second offer is on the table for Godrulz. He seems to be saying it would be a great opportunity but has given indication he doesn't feel up to the task and is offering to pass the baton to you.

This is fine, but it is an invitation, so it'd be like handing your birthday party invite to an individual who was not invited to the party with limited seating (not that you wouldn't be considered).

So, I don't see it as squirming, I see it as negotiating and waiting for a sound response. I see GR as in consideration mode at this point and AMR waiting for a solid response before moving on (one offer on the table at a time).

That you are biting at the hook is clear.
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
Mr. Religion is trying to use something from another forum two years ago to say that I wouldn't be good enough for him.

Muz
 

Lon

Well-known member
Mr. Religion is trying to use something from another forum two years ago to say that I wouldn't be good enough for him.

Muz

Yes, I saw that. I'd only be able to guess.
Also, I believe he is looking for representative view and there hasn't been much from you on this particular thread.

I looked over the thread in question, but you'd have to ask as to what leads him to the assessment, I'd only be guessing, but it is jumping the gun.

It is invitation only, so there are formalities. At present GR's invitation is still on the table.
 

SOTK

New member
I welcome intelligent dialogue. Truth does not run from error. We can learn from one another........... I would probably just reaffirm principles and hope to clarify misunderstandings on both sides. I do not have a big axe to grind nor do I just want to win or lose a debate. I want to learn and see light, not heat.

I appreciate this attitude from you, godrulz. This attitude is one of the things I've always liked about you. Thank you.

SOTK
 

SOTK

New member
Would you like to take a stab at my question?

No. It has already been answered, Lighthouse. The fact that you keep asking leads me to the belief that your mind is already made up on the issue. Anymore effort put into this question would be a waste of my time. Sorry, but that's how I see it.

SOTK
 

Clete

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Silver Subscriber
Hello??? Mr. Religion?

Please respond to my posts #1013 and #1020.

Thanks!

It is not unusual for AMR to go quite some lengthy period of time between posts. I wouldn't read too much into it. Two or three days wait time is not unusual for him.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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I had a feeling it was beyond your ability. Too bad, simplicity is often evidence of accuracy.
Utter poppycock!
What am I to make of you, Knight? You start this discussion belying a sincere interest, yet your intentions were mockery. Is there not an open theist within TOL, other that perhaps godrulz, that seeks honest discourse versus the fun and games at the expense of others or self-puffery?
Do you believe God is still free?
Yes, I do. To deny otherwise is to deny that God cannot intervene in His temporal creation. God can always do better than what God does--there will always be a gap between God and any participation in the goodness of God. Thus God cannot be required to do the better, only something which is good. God can make each of His creations better. Of course, if God makes a human being, God makes a human being, not an angel; but God could have made people more virtuous and wise than the ones God has made, and God can make things better than human beings or angels or whatever God may in fact have made.

Can God create something new right now? (assuming He wanted to?)
Yes, I do. God sees events in time and can and does act in time. God created time and rules over time, using it for his own purposes and glory. But God’s experience of time nothing like mankind experiences time. God’s does not experience a patient endurance through eons of endless duration, instead God has a vastly qualitatively different experience of time than we do.


Finite creation through its whole range exists as a medium through which God manifests His glory. Time is a property of the finite creation and is objective to God. God is above time and sees time, but God is not conditioned by time. He is also independent of space, which is another property of the finite creation. God was ontologically prior to time. No temporal continuum existed when God created the universe; hence it was not necessary for God to choose a moment in time in which to create. Rather from all eternity, God chose to create the temporal continuum itself, which had a beginning.
Can God, write a new song?
Asked and answered above.

So you believe that Christ is still suffering on the cross?
No I do not. The correct question is how does God perceive temporal events. You misunderstand God’s transcendent nature, especially regarding time. There are no ‘befores’ and ‘afters’ with eternal God. He exists outside of time. Nevertheless, God created time and can/does act within time. You are trying to map God into this time box, applying terms and concepts that we understand about time, but God’s atemporality is transcendent of these concepts. God sees everything that we know as “time” equally vividly and He has done so for eternity. From God’s perspective, any extremely long period of time is as if it just happened. Moreover any very short period of time, e.g., one day, seems to God to last forever: it never ceases to be “present” in his consciousness.


Let me try an analogy. Have you ever re-read a book that you enjoy? As soon as you start to read suddenly your mind is flooded with all the imagery, context, and plot of the entire book. A poor analogy, since “suddenly” is a succession of moments, albeit quantum moments, yet I think you can make the connection to what I mean about God’s experiencing everything equally vividly.
And when Christ said.... "it is finished" you believe it isn't really finished?
No, I do not. But again, it is how God sees temporality that is the topic, no? We humans are bound by time existing within times continuum and subject to its flow. From God’s perspective, any extremely long period of time, such as the crucifixion, is as if it just happened. Moreover any very short period of time, e.g., one day, seems to God to last forever: it never ceases to be “present” in his consciousness.

And completely unbiblical to boot. The Bible is filled cover to cover with examples of God living sequentially. From Gen 1 to Revelation 22:21 you cannot escape God's rational, sequentially character.

It's all so silly! God says He created and then He rested. According to Calvinism God is still creating! According to Calvinism God can't rest on the 7th day.
God’s special revelation (the scriptures) is revealed to His temporal creation. The Scriptures have many historical accounts of time based events. You must, however, when studying the bible, look to the didactic verses, those that teach us about God’s attributes, especially those of God’s eternity. I cited many of them in my original reply, which you have ignored.
God being out of time is a Calvinist invention.
You need more study of the doctrine and resist resorting to polemics. It is not an invention of Calvinism, it is a biblical truth believed by most Protestants.

You can't have it both ways AMR. God either determined that man would sin or He didn't, it can't be both ways.
So, the topic shifts from time to foreknowledge? OK. We must not confuse foreknowledge with foreordination. Foreknowledge presupposes foreordination, but foreknowledge is not itself foreordination. The actions of free agents do not take place because they are foreseen, they are foreseen because they are certain to take place. When I say, 'I know what I will do,' it is evident that I have determined already, and that my knowledge does not precede my determination, my knowledge follows my determination and is based upon my determination.


A list of over 4,000 predictive prophecies from the Scriptures can be obtained here. Of these, over 2,300 are predictive prophecies concerning future free human decisions or events that involve such free decisions. When these quantities are examined they clearly form a strong position for God’s foreknowledge of free human decisions.
In the end I think it's safe to say you need to alter your list. It should go more like this
You are just being silly now.


I think your biggest issue, and the problem with most Arminians and open theists, is that you need to understand that God can do as He pleases. He neither needs nor requires our permission to as He wishes to do. The Potter remains free. See Ps. 135:6; Is. 14:27; Is. 46:9-10; Ps. 33:8-11; Is. 41:21-23; Prov. 21:1; Dan. 4:34-35.


As Spurgeon once preached:
“There is no attribute of God more comforting to his children than the doctrine of Divine Sovereignty. Under the most adverse circumstances, in the most severe troubles, they believe that Sovereignty has ordained their afflictions, that Sovereignty overrules them, and that Sovereignty will sanctify them all.
There is nothing for which the children of God ought more earnestly to contend than the dominion of their Master over all creation—the kingship of God over all the works of his own hands—the throne of God, and his right to sit upon that throne.
On the other hand, there is no doctrine more hated by worldlings, no truth of which they have made such a football, as the great, stupendous, but yet most certain doctrine of the Sovereignty of the infinite Jehovah. Men will allow God to be everywhere except on his throne.
They will allow him to be in his workshop to fashion worlds and to make stars. They will allow him to be in his almonry to dispense his alms and bestow his bounties. They will allow him to sustain the earth and bear up the pillars thereof, or light the lamps of heaven, or rule the waves of the ever-moving ocean;
but when God ascends his throne, his creatures then gnash their teeth; and when we proclaim an enthroned God, and his right to do as he wills with his own, to dispose of his creatures as he thinks well, without consulting them in the matter, then it is that we are hissed and execrated, and then it is that men turn a deaf ear to us, for God on his throne is not the God they love.
They love him anywhere better than they do when he sits with his sceptre in his hand and his crown upon his head.”
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Why are we trying to move to another forum?

TOL is the best forum on the internet and we are all already here.

AMR, we have a strict policy against such requests.
No one is trying to move anywhere. Clete opined that he would like to have a two way conversation with so-called honest persons. I gave him a chance to post his arguments proving his claim that he can "demolish" anyone in a debate, on an email mailing list comprised of working (and some unemployed) theologians and others with advanced training. The email list is moderated (by me) and, as such, the usual vitriolic words like "liar", "fool", "fat head", "idiot", "screw" can be edited out before appearing on the list. In short, this was an invitation for one person to join the email list (it is not a vBulletin forum) and engage civilly with others.
 

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Hmm...

Intelligent dialogue...
Calvinist rhetoric...
Intelligent dialogue...
Calvinist rhetoric...

Gee, that sounds like the pattern of most of this thread.

Muz

This is why I say things would not work out as well as they would with godrulz. I suspect that you would have the same objections as did Clete in my being able to edit your posts if they contained harsh words. I am not implying the above is harsh, only that you have posted much worse.

Also as I noted elsewhere, your posts on another forum were not strongly supported, in fact you were being smothered by another with little significant retorts from your end. Perhaps in the many months since then you have become more well versed, yet I have not seen much evidence of that on TOL from you. No matter, my offer is now in front of godrulz so let's see how that pans out.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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It is not unusual for AMR to go quite some lengthy period of time between posts. I wouldn't read too much into it. Two or three days wait time is not unusual for him.
Thanks for this note. I do have some ongoing personal issues that interrupt things. I also spend quite a bit of time crafting my responses as I recognize that there are folks who will carefully scrutinize every word I use, e.g., Knight's pinging my use of the word, "made". So I have to spend lots of time running my words through several "Calvinism filters" for consistency before releasing them into the wild.:)
 

Clete

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What am I to make of you, Knight? You start this discussion belying a sincere interest, yet your intentions were mockery. Is there not an open theist within TOL, other that perhaps godrulz, that seeks honest discourse versus the fun and games at the expense of others or self-puffery?

AMR,

You have really got to chill out. This is not an academic debate forum. While some here are more formally educated than others, none of us are what some might call egg headed theologian professor types. We do not run in your circles and most of us would not want too. The things we say simply must not be read by you as if they are coming from one of your professorial colleges.

If "poppycock" were said by John Sanders or Gregory Boyd within the context of a formal debate which was being held at Knox Theological Seminary or some other prestigious organization then even I would be taken aback by such brazen disrespect to both you and to the debate itself. But this is the internet and this is supposed to be (by design) a VERY informal forum where people who are interested can come and hammer these ideas out in pretty much whatever way they see fit.

Now some of us take this more seriously than others and that's fine but even as much as I appreciate and even long for serious, adult conversations about these issues, there is no way that I would consider harmless banter like "poppycock" sufficient to question someone's intellectual honesty as long as they have made serious effort to actually respond in a substantive way to the point being addressed, which Knight has done in spades. Attitude on the internet should come as no surprise to you. It's what makes this website interesting to read and the absence of which that makes theological treatises (and most other theological websites) glaze everyone's eyes over.

Just take a chill pill and everyone is going to get along a whole lot better. Simply focus on being substantive and not being a hypocrite and add in some attitude for good measure and you'll be on your way to being among the most respected and favored posters on TOL.

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

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Perhaps AMR would consider pitting one of his "numerous published professional theologians", with which he apparently has some considerable pull, against Bob Enyart instead of someone like me whom he knows would never be taken seriously regardless of how polite the conversation.

What say ye, AMR? Instead of simply attempting to humiliate a hack like me, how about you put your boys up against another professional with some real debating skills?
Trust me, it is not for my lack of trying...:(

From: Bruce A. Ware
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 7:44 PM
Subject: Invitation to Open Theism Discussion

Thanks for your kind invitation, but I feel I must decline. Just too time consuming. Again, thanks and hope it provides for profitable discussion that serves the truth and advances the kingdom.


Blessings in Christ,

Bruce Ware

***************************************************
Bruce A. Ware
Professor of Christian Theology
Senior Associate Dean, School of Theology
Advanced MDiv Program Director
The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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I asked....

Can God, write a new song?

To which Mr. Religion answered....
If you stand by your answer then you affirm that the future must be open (at least open enough for God to create something new i.e., a new song).

Welcome to open theism AMR! :up:

Who's next?
If you read my post carefully, you will have noted that God does and can act in the time continuum He created. That God is not bound by time does not mean that God is not conscious of the succession of points in time. God knows what is now occurring in human experience. God is aware that events occur in a particular order. God is equally aware of all points of that order simultaneously. God is aware of what is happening, has happened, and what will happen at each point in time. Yet at any given point in time God is also conscious of the distinction between what is now occurring, what has been, and what will be.

There is a successive order to the acts of God and there is a logical order to his decisions, yet there is no temporal order to Gods willing. Gods deliberation and willing take no time. God has from eternity determined what He is now doing in our temporality, including making new songs for us. Therefore Gods actions are not in any way reactions to developments. God does not get taken by surprise or have to create contingency plans.
 

themuzicman

Well-known member
This is why I say things would not work out as well as they would with godrulz. I suspect that you would have the same objections as did Clete in my being able to edit your posts if they contained harsh words. I am not implying the above is harsh, only that you have posted much worse.

Now yer going to have to back that up.

Also as I noted elsewhere, your posts on another forum were not strongly supported, in fact you were being smothered by another with little significant retorts from your end. Perhaps in the many months since then you have become more well versed, yet I have not seen much evidence of that on TOL from you. No matter, my offer is now in front of godrulz so let's see how that pans out.


LOL!

I gave you a post in your own open view thread that was STRONGLY supported with SOLID exegesis from scripture, and you never answered it (at least last I checked). From that point, I just figured you weren't worth the effort.

Muz
 

Philetus

New member
(Green emphasis mine)
If you read my post carefully, you will have noted that God does and can act in the time continuum He created. That God is not bound by time does not mean that God is not conscious of the succession of points in time. God knows what is now occurring in human experience. God is aware that events occur in a particular order. God is equally aware of all points of that order simultaneously. God is aware of what is happening, has happened, and what will happen at each point in time. Yet at any given point in time God is also conscious of the distinction between what is now occurring, what has been, and what will be.

There is a successive order to the acts of God and there is a logical order to his decisions, yet there is no temporal order to Gods willing. Gods deliberation and willing take no time. God has from eternity determined what He is now doing in our temporality, including making new songs for us. Therefore Gods actions are not in any way reactions to developments. God does not get taken by surprise or have to create contingency plans.



Good answer. Wrong, but creative. What you describe seems to be a logical absurdity as well as a distortion of scripture. What you describe is not a new song but a timed release of a pre-conceived and pre-written song … written and copy-written before the foundation of Capital Records. So, whether you admit it or not your answer is NO. God cannot write a new song ... never could ... we only hear it as new. To God its the same ol' same ol. In fact it isn't even a song ... it is only skip in the old 45rpm. It isn't a new song it's the old song God wrote FOR US.

Can we write new songs? If we can then in our temporality God has given to us a measure of creativity and freedom that is capable of producing New Songs! Can a timeless God act in particular order and sequence of events in a way that preserves this creativity and freedom? Even if (as you suggest) God is timeless yet still perceives the order of events as temporal … how could He not be ‘surprised’ by the top 40? In fact, if God as you describe Him experiences the temporal as timeless while still distinguishing the past, present and future, God is always and eternally in a state of ‘surprise’.
 
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