ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 2

CabinetMaker · Sep 12, 2007

godrulz said:
Chapter? Verse?

Revelation 17:8
The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

This means God knew who's name should be recorded in the book of life. That would imply that either God knew from predestining those who are in the book or had foreknowledge of who would accept His offer of salvation. I believe it is the second. Jesus came to redeem all men. Not all men will accept the offer of salvation. And God knows who will accept and who wont.

When I read the NT it reads like it was written to people who have a real choice to make. A real and meaningful choice that will effect them through eternity.

godrulz said:
How does He know the future? He knows it as possible, not actual, unless He predetermines to settle somethings in advance by His ability.

Simple foreknowledge is an assumption, but indefensible.

Exhaustive definite foreknowledge would be possible if God predetermined and brought to pass everything (omnicausal). Since this would make God responsible for heinous evil, we must jettison EDF (i.e. Open Theism is able to affirm free will, predestination/foreknowledge of some vs all things, and omniscience, knowing all that is logically possible to know).

As I said before, I do not believe God is bound by our concept of time. Predestination and God knowing only that which is knowable are two sides of the same coin. Both positions assume that God is bound by our concept of time. If that were true EDF would require predestination and preordination of all (as in each and every) things. In this case, God is responsible, directly first order cause responsible, for every evil act. As God is not responsible for evil, this is not the case.

Time was created by God. God is the uncaused for cause meaning He is without beginning and without end. Time was created as God as part of His act of creation. As such, God has a perspective of time that we no way to even begin to comprehend. God can have EDF of the future because future only has meaning from our perspective within time. God knows what we will do and He allows us to do it even if it is evil.

Consider Jesus. Do you think He saw sinners as He walked through life? Did He stop them? No. Did Jesus confront the Pharisees? Yes. Did He stop them from sinning? No. Is Jesus responsible for their continuing sin? No.

RobE · Sep 12, 2007

Aimey said:
Robe,

am I understanding you correctly in that you beleive that

1.God DOES know the future.

Yes, God knows the future as is supported by various scriptures including the story of Jesus, Peter, Judas Iscariot, Cyrus, etc.....

2.He did not predestine certain men for damnation.

When God created He foreknew that some men would be damned, but He created man anyway for His own good purposes(i.e. the benefit of those who would NOT be damned).

3.Men have freewill to pursue submission to Him vs rebellion.
and possibly..........

Men do have free will, but are unable to redeem themselves through their own works. Only God, in His application of Grace is able to save. The question that the hypercalvinist would ask now is - "If grace is sufficient for all and God wants all men to be saved, then how do some men end up damned?"

My reply to them would be that the application of grace stops when it becomes an overriding coercive force(therefore destroying the man's free will). The subject of grace isn't an easy one and I will stop here before I spend the next week discussing thoughts and ultimately boring you.

The simple answer is 'that men have freewill'(a gift of grace) 'to pursue submission to Him'(with the help of grace) 'and possibly'.......(with saving grace).

4.God is able to participate in time with men.

God has always participated in time with men. What are the Holy Scriptures if not participation with men. He ate with Abraham, walked with Enoch, spoke to Solomon, etc.... And those are the one written in the Bible, how much has happened that hasn't been written.

Does God run around cleaning up messes from His failed attempt of creation as the o.v. would have us believe? Absolutely not. God is in control of the universe and His perfect plans endure forever. Is there anything in existence which is able to thwart God himself? The o.v. would have you believe that any puny man can with the use of free will, but I say no.

:thumb: thanks for the questions,

Rob

godrulz · Sep 12, 2007

OT does not believe man can thwart God's plans and purposes overall, but can do so in some ways as to their individual salvation. We can receive or reject Christ. He does not coerce some into heaven or arbitrarily damn others.

Lk. 7:30 is an example of the Pharisees rejecting God's purposes for them. Matthew 23:37 is an example of God's desires and man's rejection in conflict. God has sovereignly chosen to not always have his way in individual lives in order to have the higher good of love, relationship, and freedom.

It comes down to a risk free vs risk model of providence explained by John Sanders in

"The God who risks: A theology of Providence" The evidence supports a warfare vs blueprint model of sovereignty (see Gregory Boyd's "Satan and the problem of evil: constructing a trinitarian warfare theodicy")

Clete · Sep 12, 2007

CabinetMaker said:
In this case, no. The Bible does say that God knows the future. It does not say how He knows it. My attempts to explain His foreknowledge results in an apparent contradiction.

What do you mean? Do you mean, "No, I cannot tell the difference in this case."?

That sounds like what you must have meant and so since what you are calling an apparent contradiction might, by your own admission, be a real contradiction, we are back to the previous question...

If you are willing to live with contradiction, how do you know what to trust? You say that you can only trust what He says but how do you know what He says if you ignore contradiction? Someone says that the Bible teaches one thing, someone else say it teaches the opposite. How are we to tell who is right and who isn't if contradiction doesn't falsify a truth claim? In fact, if contradiction doesn't falsify a truth claim, what does?

Also, where does the Bible say that God has exhaustive foreknowledge?

Resting in Him,
Clete

CabinetMaker · Sep 12, 2007

Clete said:
If the "appearance" of contradiction is due to a systemic failure in your ability to understand then how can you tell the difference between an apparent contradiction and a real one? Don't they both appear the same?

Resting in Him,
Clete

CabinetMaker said:
In this case, no. The Bible does say that God knows the future. It does not say how He knows it. My attempts to explain His foreknowledge results in an apparent contradiction.

Clete said:
What do you mean? Do you mean, "No, I cannot tell the difference in this case."?

That sounds like what you must have meant and so since what you are calling an apparent contradiction might, by your own admission, be a real contradiction, we are back to the previous question...

That is not what I meant. Your original question asked how I could tell the difference between a real and an apparent contradiction. Do they appear the same. My response was that in this specific case, they do not appear the same. The Bible talks of God's foreknowledge in such a way that it appears complete. I accept that as truth.

Clete said:
If you are willing to live with contradiction, how do you know what to trust? You say that you can only trust what He says but how do you know what He says if you ignore contradiction? Someone says that the Bible teaches one thing, someone else say it teaches the opposite. How are we to tell who is right and who isn't if contradiction doesn't falsify a truth claim? In fact, if contradiction doesn't falsify a truth claim, what does?

I honestly do not see a contradiction that needs to be resolved. It is more mystery than anything else. God knows the future to what ever degree He needs to know it. God is the only being capable of know the future without preordaining it. It all goes back to my belief about God and time. I do not believe God is bound by time the same way we are. Because of that belief, there is no contradiction in God knowing the future without having to first set the future.

Clete said:
Also, where does the Bible say that God has exhaustive foreknowledge?

See post 3541 at the top of this page.

Clete · Sep 12, 2007

CabinetMaker said:
That is not what I meant.

Oh! Okay - Sorry.

Your original question asked how I could tell the difference between a real and an apparent contradiction. Do they appear the same. My response was that in this specific case, they do not appear the same.

How does this so called "apparent contradiction" look different from a real contradiction?

The Bible talks of God's foreknowledge in such a way that it appears complete. I accept that as truth.

While I have no doubt that you believe this, I submit that you are reading your theology into the text and seeing something that is not there. Please show me where the Bible teaches that God's knowledge of the future is complete.

If you like, I can show you were it directly says that it is not complete.

I honestly do not see a contradiction that needs to be resolved.

Huh?

Then how did we get to this point in the conversation?

Remember the syllogism I posted?

Basic Argument for Theological Fatalism

(1) Yesterday God infallibly believed T. [Supposition of infallible foreknowledge]
(2) If E occurred in the past, it is now-necessary that E occurred then. [Principle of the Necessity of the Past]
(3) It is now-necessary that yesterday God believed T. [1, 2]
(4) Necessarily, if yesterday God believed T, then T. [Definition of "infallibility"]
(5) If p is now-necessary, and necessarily (p → q), then q is now-necessary. [Transfer of Necessity Principle]
(6) So it is now-necessary that T. [3,4,5]
(7) If it is now-necessary that T, then you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [Definition of "necessary"]
(8) Therefore, you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [6, 7]
(9) If you cannot do otherwise when you do an act, you do not act freely. [Principle of Alternate Possibilities]
(10) Therefore, when you answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am, you will not do it freely. [8, 9]
source

If you see no contradiction then perhaps you can show me where the flaw is in the above line reasoning?

It is more mystery than anything else. God knows the future to what ever degree He needs to know it.

I don't really know what you mean by 'mystery' here but I would agree that God knows the future to whatever degree He needs to know it. That is, however, a far cry from saying that He knows it exhaustively.

God is the only being capable of know the future without preordaining it.

On the contrary. The syllogism above proves otherwise. If the future is known, it is settled.

It all goes back to my belief about God and time. I do not believe God is bound by time the same way we are. Because of that belief, there is no contradiction in God knowing the future without having to first set the future.

How about the contradiction implicit in the notion that God exists outside of time?

Time is duration and/or sequence. Existence implies duration (and usually sequence as well) and thus existence implies time. Therefore, to say that anything, including God, exists outside of time is to contradict yourself.

See post 3541 at the top of this page.

Revelation 17:8 is an excellent example of what I meant earlier when I said you were reading your theology into the text. The passage isn't saying that their names had to have been there the whole time since the foundation of the world, its simply saying that the people who marvel at the beast have never had their names put in the book. "From the foundation of the world" is an idiomatic expression. If something hasn't been done "from the foundation of the world" that simply means it has never yet been done. It isn't implying that the issue has been settled since the beginning of the world; it doesn't have predestination or foreknowledge implicit within it. It just means that it has never happened yet. The people who marvel at the beast never, from the beginning of the world to the present, had their names written in the book. In effect, the passage is telling us that there are people on the Earth at that time who do not marvel at the beast and that it is those folks who have had their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life. So the author is saying that all the unsaved people on the Earth marveled at the Beast and nothing more than that.

Resting in Him,
Clete

CabinetMaker · Sep 12, 2007

Clete said:
How does this so called "apparent contradiction" look different from a real contradiction?

Let my try this. The Westminster Confession contains the statement that God unchangeably ordained whatsoever comes to pass. The very next clause contains the statement that this does not mean that God is responsible for evil. That is a direct contradiction. If God unchangeably ordained everything, and everything means everything, then God ordained evil directly. If God did not ordain evil, then He did not ordain everything. I find it contradictory to basic human logic yet many people are willing to accept that contradiction on faith and live with it.

The case of not knowing how God can know the future without defining the future violates the same human logic. However, I have resolved that contradiction in my own mind be understanding that God is not bound by time as we are. For some, the contradiction remains. For me, it is unsatisfactorily resolved. I may well be wrong.

Clete said:
If you like, I can show you were it directly says that it is not complete.

Please

Clete said:
Huh?

Then how did we get to this point in the conversation?

Remember the syllogism I posted?

Basic Argument for Theological Fatalism

(1) Yesterday God infallibly believed T. [Supposition of infallible foreknowledge]
(2) If E occurred in the past, it is now-necessary that E occurred then. [Principle of the Necessity of the Past]
(3) It is now-necessary that yesterday God believed T. [1, 2]
(4) Necessarily, if yesterday God believed T, then T. [Definition of "infallibility"]
(5) If p is now-necessary, and necessarily (p → q), then q is now-necessary. [Transfer of Necessity Principle]
(6) So it is now-necessary that T. [3,4,5]
(7) If it is now-necessary that T, then you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [Definition of "necessary"]
(8) Therefore, you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [6, 7]
(9) If you cannot do otherwise when you do an act, you do not act freely. [Principle of Alternate Possibilities]
(10) Therefore, when you answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am, you will not do it freely. [8, 9]
source
If you see no contradiction then perhaps you can show me where the flaw is in the above line reasoning?

When this was originally posted I said that it was a vain attempt to fit God into our understanding of the universe. I never agreed that this was an accurate description of God and how God must have settled it.

Clete said:
I don't really know what you mean by 'mystery' here but I would agree that God knows the future to whatever degree He needs to know it. That is, however, a far cry from saying that He knows it exhaustively.

I would have to agree. I was raised Catholic and some of the Catholic teachings have stuck. One of the many down falls of being human.

Clete said:
How about the contradiction implicit in the notion that God exists outside of time?

God is the uncreated first cause. The answer to this question hinges on the answer to a second question. Did time exist before God's act of creation or not? My answer is no. Time is a created thing. I know there was a thread about this very topic.

Clete said:
Time is duration and/or sequence. Existence implies duration (and usually sequence as well) and thus existence implies time. Therefore, to say that anything, including God, exists outside of time is to contradict yourself.

You should have prefaced your statement with "Our understanding of time is..." We are trapped in time, if you will. We can neither move forward no backward through it. It allows us to measure things and plan things. I do not believe that God faces those same limits. God is aware of time as a created thing and uses it to interact with us. But I don believe He is bound by it.

Clete said:
Revelation 17:8 is an excellent example of what I meant earlier when I said you were reading your theology into the text. The passage isn't saying that their names had to have been there the whole time since the foundation of the world, its simply saying that the people who marvel at the beast have never had their names put in the book. "From the foundation of the world" is an idiomatic expression. If something hasn't been done "from the foundation of the world" that simply means it has never yet been done. It isn't implying that the issue has been settled since the beginning of the world; it doesn't have predestination or foreknowledge implicit within it. It just means that it has never happened yet. The people who marvel at the beast never, from the beginning of the world to the present, had their names written in the book. In effect, the passage is telling us that there are people on the Earth at that time who do not marvel at the beast and that it is those folks who have had their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life. So the author is saying that all the unsaved people on the Earth marveled at the Beast and nothing more than that.

As noted earlier, sometimes my Catholic upbringing shows through. As it stands, my understanding of this passage is that the names in the book of life were written since the creation of earth. I offer this as support of that understanding.

Philippians 4:3
Yes, and I ask you, loyal yokefellow, help these women who have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

This verse notes that the names are already in the book of life. A little inconclusive by itself but it does support a preexisting book of life.

Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

This verse is stronger. It says Jesus will not blot out a name instead of saying He will add a name. Again, a book exists with names already in it. Your name will be added, but it can be blotted out.

That is why I believe the way I do. I am open to new understanding.

Clete · Sep 12, 2007

CabinetMaker said:
Let my try this. The Westminster Confession contains the statement that God unchangeably ordained whatsoever comes to pass. The very next clause contains the statement that this does not mean that God is responsible for evil. That is a direct contradiction. If God unchangeably ordained everything, and everything means everything, then God ordained evil directly. If God did not ordain evil, then He did not ordain everything. I find it contradictory to basic human logic yet many people are willing to accept that contradiction on faith and live with it.

The case of not knowing how God can know the future without defining the future violates the same human logic. However, I have resolved that contradiction in my own mind be understanding that God is not bound by time as we are. For some, the contradiction remains. For me, it is unsatisfactorily resolved. I may well be wrong.

I just love your honesty! How refreshing!

I submit that you have only replaced one contradiction with another, more hidden one. As I have already pointed out, existence outside of time is an oximoron. It actually commits what is known as a Stolen Concept Fallacy. You implicitly accept duration while rejecting time which is only a concept used to communicate duration.

Please

Check your PM's

When this was originally posted I said that it was a vain attempt to fit God into our understanding of the universe. I never agreed that this was an accurate description of God and how God must have settled it.

The syllogism doesn't have anything to do with God per se. It has merely to do with the logical implications of having an event foreknown. Who does the foreknowing is irrelevant to the line of reasoning.

I would have to agree. I was raised Catholic and some of the Catholic teachings have stuck. One of the many down falls of being human.

Everyone who thinks the future is settled has Augustine to thank for it.

God is the uncreated first cause. The answer to this question hinges on the answer to a second question. Did time exist before God's act of creation or not? My answer is no. Time is a created thing. I know there was a thread about this very topic.

There is no way you can prove this Biblically. There is no mention of the creation of time in Genesis and no one denies that God existed BEFORE creation. In fact, it is impossible to discuss God's existence outside of time without using terms like "before", "after", "until" "when", etc, which illustrates the stolen concept fallacy I mentioned a moment ago.

You should have prefaced your statement with "Our understanding of time is..."

While I agree that words have a range of meaning and that the specific definition is determined by the context of its use, I specifically chose NOT to preface the statement at all because for the purposes of this conversation time can only have one meaning that makes any sense. Time is not an ontological, created thing, it is an idea. When we discuss time, we are talking about duration and/or sequence. That's what the term means - period; no preface necessary. Now if we were talking about Relativity then we would have to modify our definition to say something about the functionality of clocks and how those clocks are effected by motion and gravity but we aren't talking about clocks or physics, we are talking about time as in the duration of the universe and of God Himself.

We are trapped in time, if you will. We can neither move forward no backward through it. It allows us to measure things and plan things. I do not believe that God faces those same limits. God is aware of time as a created thing and uses it to interact with us. But I don believe He is bound by it.

This is definitely left over from your Catholic (i.e. Augustinian) up bringing. The Calvinists believe that same thing for the same reason you do.

As noted earlier, sometimes my Catholic upbringing shows through. As it stands, my understanding of this passage is that the names in the book of life were written since the creation of earth. I offer this as support of that understanding.

Philippians 4:3
Yes, and I ask you, loyal yokefellow, help these women who have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life.

This verse notes that the names are already in the book of life. A little inconclusive by itself but it does support a preexisting book of life.

Already in the book of life as of the writing of Philippians. There is no indication here that their names were so written before those people ever existed or even before they first believed.

Revelation 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

This verse is stronger. It says Jesus will not blot out a name instead of saying He will add a name. Again, a book exists with names already in it. Your name will be added, but it can be blotted out.

This is an argument from silence. There is no evidence here that the names existed in the book prior to the people who's names are there written believed.

That is why I believe the way I do. I am open to new understanding.

GREAT!

Check out what I sent you via PM.

(I would post it here but it would just cause more head-ache than its worth.)

Resting in Him,
Clete

RobE · Sep 13, 2007

godrulz said:
It comes down to a risk free vs risk model of providence explained by John Sanders in

"The God who risks: A theology of Providence" The evidence supports a warfare vs blueprint model of sovereignty (see Gregory Boyd's "Satan and the problem of evil: constructing a trinitarian warfare theodicy")

War with who? Is it "finished" or not?

lain:

godrulz · Sep 13, 2007

RobE said:
War with who? Is it "finished" or not? lain:

Satan, world, flesh, demons.

Ephesians 6:10-20 talks about our spiritual warfare and armor. Satan is not in the lake of fire until after the millennium.

2 Cor. 10:4 warfare

Revelation warfare

A helpful analogy is WW II and D-Day and VE-Day.

The victory was assured on D-Day. The enemy was defeated. The victory was fully achieved later on VE-Day with the enemies' surrender about one year later. During the mopping up period, there were still battles even though the war was one. There were still casualties.

Satan was defeated on the cross. Sin and death were defeated yet Satan, sin, and death still reign in individual lives between the first and second coming of Christ. Satan was not locked up after the cross though he is a defeated enemy. His power is broken in individual lives as they trust Christ's victory and are transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light. Many still remain in the kingdom of darkness, blinded by Satan, the 'god' of this world, the prince of the air.

Spiritual warfare should not just be for crazy charismatics. We are still in battle, soldiers and ambassadors for Christ, between victory assured and achieved.

Philetus · Sep 14, 2007

Jesus: It is finished!

Is it "finished" or not?

Bill Clinton: What is 'it'?

Paul: Fight the good fight, you crazy charismatics.

Man, this thread is cooking now.

1Co 9:26 Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air.

2Co 10:4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. (You mean I still gotta fight?)

1Ti 1:18 Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, (I still gotta follow?)

1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses. (But, I thought I already took hold of it in confession. Wasn't my confession good enough?)

2Ti 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. (Cue the Rooster?)

While some may be beating the air, you ARE fighting the GOOD fight, GR.

RobE · Sep 14, 2007

godrulz said:
Satan, world, flesh, demons.

Ephesians 6:10-20 talks about our spiritual warfare and armor. Satan is not in the lake of fire until after the millennium.

2 Cor. 10:4 warfare

Revelation warfare

A helpful analogy is WW II and D-Day and VE-Day.

The victory was assured on D-Day. The enemy was defeated. The victory was fully achieved later on VE-Day with the enemies' surrender about one year later. During the mopping up period, there were still battles even though the war was one. There were still casualties.

Satan was defeated on the cross. Sin and death were defeated yet Satan, sin, and death still reign in individual lives between the first and second coming of Christ. Satan was not locked up after the cross though he is a defeated enemy. His power is broken in individual lives as they trust Christ's victory and are transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light. Many still remain in the kingdom of darkness, blinded by Satan, the 'god' of this world, the prince of the air.

Spiritual warfare should not just be for crazy charismatics. We are still in battle, soldiers and ambassadors for Christ, between victory assured and achieved.

7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
"Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
12Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short."

Does Satan exist in the world because God is warring him or does he exist in the world because God is forestalling judgement upon him?

A couple of good questions for the o.v. would be --- Why doesn't God imprison Satan and his minions unless it is part of a different plan with a known outcome? What is the purpose of Satan according to the o.v.? Is God helpless against the devil?

:think:

Philetus · Sep 14, 2007

God is not helpless. :yawn:

God exercises self-control and is patient and His patience is meant to lead us to repentance; a change of heart, mind and action. Open Theism isn’t so much about knowledge (what God knew and when He knew it) it is about absolute power and how God uses it. It isn’t over as long as God restrains His wrath and exercises patience in hope.

17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory. 18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23 Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

A good question for anyone is: Does God hope? Must God have patience if He is guaranteed of the outcome in meticulous detail? Or having provided every thing we have need of for salvation and true religion (that part is 'finished'), does God exercise patience in hope that all will come to repentance? I believe it is the latter; hence the future is still somewhat open ('unfinished'). If it is a matter of timelessness and God can actually see (know in detail) next Thursday, then He can plainly see that I am not yet there, though today I hope to be. I exist only in time and have only the present in which to live. Where I will be next Thursday (in this life or for some in the life to come) remains contingent on things yet undecided. The past can only be remembered and God’s memory is perfect, yet, He chooses to forget our sins that are washed away by the blood of Christ. The present can be known and God’s knowledge of it is perfect and exhaustive. The future is filled with hope “and hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us." (Ro 5:5)

Philetus

godrulz · Sep 14, 2007

RobE said:
Does Satan exist in the world because God is warring him or does he exist in the world because God is forestalling judgement upon him?

A couple of good questions for the o.v. would be --- Why doesn't God imprison Satan and his minions unless it is part of a different plan with a known outcome? What is the purpose of Satan according to the o.v.? Is God helpless against the devil?

:think:

There must be issues of justice and freedom for our defeated foe to still have a reign of terror in progress. God could snuff out him and evil, but most of the planet would go down with him. His final judgment is delayed. He is a defeated foe, but still has limited ability to oppose God and His people (warfare).

Satan and evil do not have a good purpose, but it is part of the cosmic warfare that is not finalized yet.

Issues of freedom must be factored in. God is omnipotent and Satan is finite. Just because man rejects God's will (even Christians do) in certain ways does not make God helpless.

A model of raw power and meticulous control is flawed, so your questions really are not 'good' questions for any view.

See my next post for more profound insights :idea:

godrulz · Sep 14, 2007

"Satan and the Problem of Evil: Constructing a trinitarian warfare theodicy" Dr. Gregory Boyd IVP p. 153

"...both Scripture and the world suggest that the 'game' is all about balancing control and freedom. God is in control precisely because he can and does limit creaturely freedom, and agents have freedom precisely because God does not exercise exhaustive unilateral control....
God's providence does not need to be meticulously controlling on the level of free agents to ensure that His sovereign plan for the world will be accomplished."

This is supported by Scripture and quantum mechanics, chaos/complexity theory, and thermodynamics.

John Polkinghorne in 'The Quantum World' "We are presented with a picture of the world that is neither mechanical nor chaotic, but at once both open and orderly in its character."

Philetus will grasp these self-evident principles and cheer me on.:sam:

Rob will dance around it and agree while disagreeing.:think:

AMR will jeer me for making assertions without a book length proof. These issues could be established with detailed research into science, philosophy, and theology. I will now embark on this journey of detailed proof, IF AMR will hold his breath while I do so (no cheating).:kookoo:

Philetus · Sep 14, 2007

John Polkinghorne in 'The Quantum World' ... "We are presented with a picture of the world that is neither mechanical nor chaotic, but at once both open and orderly in its character."

Philetus will grasp these self-evident principles and cheer me on.

:bow: :the_wave: :BRAVO:
NOW! ONWARD!

There I've done my part.

I will now embark on this journey of detailed proof, IF AMR will hold his breath while I do so.

:crackup:
Now if we can just get AMR to do his part.

God has created a universe that works incredibly well. It reflects His glory and sustains our existence while we ponder weighty matters like what we shall eat, what we shall put on and where we shall spend eternity. Philetus

godrulz · Sep 14, 2007

Is your last quote about eating your words? Give yourself or someone else credit.

How about this thought that popped into my head: God can be 'in control' without controlling every moral and mundane choice....or as my new T-shirt is going to say: God is omnicompetent, not omnicausal.

Bro, we are on a roll.:sheep: :banana:

Philetus · Sep 14, 2007

I don't know how the ""s got in there ... must have been meticulous control.

I think I"l make a tea shirt that says

GRASP IT
dance
or just
hold your breath

Rolling on the floor, maybe.

Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water ....

Has the concept of Hope become such a nebulous and empty thing that nobody will consider it as part of God's make up? Why are we so unwilling to explore outside our own little boxes?

Philetus · Sep 14, 2007

there now, I fixed it.

ominsosocompetent

Philetus · Sep 14, 2007

IF God is love and God hopes then His hope is no more misdirected than His love. God loves the lost and hopes they come to repentance. Hope doesn't disappoint. Lovelessness, faithlessness and hopelessness disappoint.

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