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Thread: Convince Me!

  1. #16
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by allsmiles
    Knight, evidence contrary to your beliefs is posted here on TOL every day and I know you see a great deal of it. Can you honestly say that your attitude is any different than the one you've described here?
    Yes.

    You will never hear me say... "I don't expect to be changed in my thinking." or "no matter what evidence you present I will not change my mind." or "I don't care what you say it wont make any difference."

    Therefore, my attitude is indeed "different".
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    Over 1000 post club allsmiles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Yes.

    You will never hear me say... "I don't expect to be changed in my thinking." or "no matter what evidence you present I will not change my mind." or "I don't care what you say it wont make any difference."

    Therefore, my attitude is indeed "different".
    Your incapability to perceive the nuance of my question is rivalled only by your abject failure to present evidence to support the existence of your god's alleged son.

    I didn't ask about what you would say Knight, either you didn't notice because you weren't paying attention or you did and you're being dishonest.

    Neither would surprise me.
    The most important thing anyone can learn from 1st century greco-roman mystery cults is that complex religious systems can arise and develop without an historical founder.

  3. #18
    Old Timer Cracked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chair
    Take the Chair challenge! Convince me that Christianity is true. Many of you have been trying to do this in various threads, so here is a chance to go at it in a straightforward way, instead of hijacking other threads.
    Have you ever tried to come to Christ humbly, as His servant, in love? Until you do that, I don't think anyone is going to be able to convince you.
    "Haven't seen the back of us yet..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    TRANSLATION: When you share your pearls with me, I am going to mock you.

    Any post that ends with a "I don't expect to be changed in my thinking." or a "no matter what evidence you present I will not change my mind." or "I don't care what you say it wont make any difference." should be a warning that the poster's only intention is to waste your time.
    The alternative was to lie, and pretend that I was on the verge of converting. I chose to be honest.

  5. #20
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chair
    The alternative was to lie, and pretend that I was on the verge of converting. I chose to be honest.
    I never stated you weren't being honest.

    Forgive me for being able to predict how a thread will develop.

    I have doing this for a long time. It's my curse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cracked
    Have you ever tried to come to Christ humbly, as His servant, in love? Until you do that, I don't think anyone is going to be able to convince you.
    But why should I? I woudl have to have faith first before I do that.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by chair
    Take the Chair challenge! Convince me that Christianity is true. Many of you have been trying to do this in various threads, so here is a chance to go at it in a straightforward way, instead of hijacking other threads.

    There are some rules:

    1. Please define, BRIEFLY, what you mean by Christianity before you start. There are differing views about this, so I would like to know what exactly you are trying to convince me of.
    2. Give some evidence or reasoning for your statements.
    3. Avoid circular reasoning. If you want to prove something from the Bible, you will have to convince me that the Bible is true first.
    4. Please be brief. I get lost in long-winded lengthy posts.
    5. Personal experience ( I feel God) won't work with me, so don't bother.
    6. Don't assume that I agree with you on anything before I have actually said so. Some ideas that you think are held by everybody but be completely foreign to me.

    Honestly - I view this as an intellectual exercise. I don't expect to be changed in my thinking. But you never know...
    some friendly advice from a former christian - some here may try to convince you that you should become a christians because christianity (in their opinion) makes more sense any other religious option currently on the market.

    it goes without saying that that in and of itself doesn't mean that christianity is true - christianity may just be the most credible selection in an un-credible lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigbang123
    this, like all analogies, is flawed but bear with me a moment.
    imagine i've placed in front of you 10 cups of kool-aid, each containing different amounts of arsenic.

    the cup of kool-aid with the least amount of arsenic, i suppose, would be the least objectionable but in reality none of them would be acceptable.

    likewise, this book* is john's explanation as to why christianity, although in many respects the best of the available selections, is still not acceptable as a world view which he can still embrace.

    as your apologetics assignment, should you choose to accept it, chapter by chapter how would you respond to john (theme music
    from MISSION IMPOSSIBLE quietly playing in the background)?

    some of the arsenic like elements in christianity

    Matthew 25:41 (Jesus speaking to people at final judgment), ...Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

    Revelation 14:11, And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night...

    Revelation 20:12, 15, And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life...And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Matthew 10:28, And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Luke 12:5, But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

    Matthew 18:8, 9 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

    Matthew 25:46, And these shall go away into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    II Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.

    Isaiah 66:24, And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be abhorring unto all flesh.

    Mark 9:44 (speaking of hell), Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

    Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrha...are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    Matthew 22:13, ...Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Matthew 13:41-42, The Son of man (Jesus) shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

    Revelation 21:8, But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    Psalm 9:17, The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

    Daniel 12:2, And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and EVERLASTING contempt.
    *Why I Rejected Christianity: A Former Apologist Explains
    by John W. Loftus

    http://www.amazon.com/Why-Rejected-...9983034?ie=UTF8

    http://www.trafford.com/4dcgi/view-...145338-31415aaa

  8. #23
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    Chair,

    We can't convince you that Christianity is true. This is a Spiritual experience between the seeker and their God.

    Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart.


    If you truly want to know if Christianity is true ask Him with a sincere heart, He'll let you know.

  9. #24
    Over 1000 post club allsmiles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chair
    But why should I? I woudl have to have faith first before I do that.
    Let's not forget the obvious Chair, that being the fact that Jesus, whether he existed or not, did not fit the bill of the Jewish messiah. He just wasn't it
    The most important thing anyone can learn from 1st century greco-roman mystery cults is that complex religious systems can arise and develop without an historical founder.

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    Over 500 post club Mustard Seed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chair
    5. Personal experience ( I feel God) won't work with me, so don't bother.
    If what I proposed had YOU experiencing something personally would you discount that? Or is the "personal experience" thing universal in your rejection criteria?
    "For a man to be great, he must not dwell on small things, though he may enjoy them."

    Thy mind, O Man, if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation must stretch as high as the utmost heaven, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss. Thou must commune with God.

    --Joseph Smith Jr.

  11. #26
    Old Timer Cracked's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chair
    But why should I? I woudl have to have faith first before I do that.
    Because God loves you, and His hand is extended to you - all you need do is reach for it.

    Luke 11:
    9 "So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 11 If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"
    "Haven't seen the back of us yet..."

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    Journeyman eisenreich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Yes.

    You will never hear me say... "I don't expect to be changed in my thinking." or "no matter what evidence you present I will not change my mind." or "I don't care what you say it wont make any difference."

    Therefore, my attitude is indeed "different".
    As AS has already deftly pointed out, you were less than welcoming to an honest discussion on the historicity of Jesus. Considering Jesus' existence as the son of God is the prerequisite for all of your theological arguments and the basis of your life, there is "no evidence [we could] present that would change your mind".

    Tell me I'm wrong. Either I'm wrong or you're a hypocrite for your statement directed towards chair, which is it? If my name is red by morning, we'll know who was right..
    "The great use of life is to spend it for something that will outlast it." - William James

  13. #28
    Over 1000 post club allsmiles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eisenreich
    As AS has already deftly pointed out, you were less than welcoming to an honest discussion on the historicity of Jesus. Considering Jesus' existence as the son of God is the prerequisite for all of your theological arguments and the basis of your life, there is "no evidence [we could] present that would change your mind".

    Tell me I'm wrong. Either I'm wrong or you're a hypocrite for your statement directed towards chair, which is it? If my name is red by morning, we'll know who was right..


    If Knight even responds to this he'll have a host of half-baked excuses for not engaging anyone on the subject of Jesus' alleged historicity. In the end I didn't even ask him to engage me, I asked him to present his evidence and nothing more. He wouldn't/couldn't even do that.

    There's no reason to despair however. In KimberlyAnn's thread, something like A Question for nonbelievers, there were around three or four of us who flat out said that we don't believe Jesus existed in the first place The word is getting around, they're going to have to confront it sooner or later and when they do it's going to be a beautiful catastrophe
    The most important thing anyone can learn from 1st century greco-roman mystery cults is that complex religious systems can arise and develop without an historical founder.

  14. #29
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    If Knight even responds to this he'll have a host of half-baked excuses for not engaging anyone on the subject of Jesus' alleged historicity. In the end I didn't even ask him to engage me, I asked him to present his evidence and nothing more. He wouldn't/couldn't even do that.

    There's no reason to despair however. In KimberlyAnn's thread, something like A Question for nonbelievers, there were around three or four of us who flat out said that we don't believe Jesus existed in the first place The word is getting around, they're going to have to confront it sooner or later and when they do it's going to be a beautiful catastrophe
    The doublethink some christians engage in is quite amazing,I don't know how they do it.
    I am an aristocrat. I love liberty; I hate equality.

    -John Randolph

    What is Whiggery? A leveling, rancorous, rational sort of mind, that never looked out of the eye of a saint , or out of a drunkard's eye. All's Whiggery now, but we old men are massed against the world.
    W.B Yeats

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    Over 1000 post club allsmiles's Avatar
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    What's important at this point is that we don't fall into the trap of hypocrisy, disunity, dishonesty and cowardice that they do. We need to bide our time, collect our thoughts, prepare our arguments, come together as a group and strike when the time is right.

    By "we" I mean the heathens of TOL, whether that means atheist, agnostic, buddhist (I see you down there Balder), pagan, satanist, etc.

    Skepticism has developed far beyond Christian apologetics in general sophistication and our group here should reflect that.
    The most important thing anyone can learn from 1st century greco-roman mystery cults is that complex religious systems can arise and develop without an historical founder.

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