The Terrible God of Calvinism

glorydaz · Oct 16, 2015

NickCharles said:
First John 2:2. Where He's a propitiation for the whole world. In other words, according to your theology, God's wrath is satisfied against the whole world (propitiation). Yet in John 3:36, it remains on unbelievers.

So how can it remain and be satisfied at the same time?

I guess you don't understand that it take two to tango. :chuckle:

The enmity from God's side has been appeased by our Lord's death on the cross. But there is more.....much more....we shall be saved by His life when we believe. It's why we are told to BE RECONCILED.

Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

This is the part B57 refuses to see. Will you refuse, too? Think of it like Hatfield and McCoy. Mr. McCoy offers his hand in friendship. He puts aside all the past enmity. Now each of us is like Mr. Hatfield. We can be reconciled and shake hands, or we can turn our back and refuse the peace that has been offered.

NickCharles · Oct 16, 2015

glorydaz said:
I guess you don't understand that it take two to tango. :chuckle:

The enmity from God's side has been appeased by our Lord's death on the cross. But there is more.....much more....we shall be saved by His life when we believe. It's why we are told to BE RECONCILED.

Romans 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

2 Corinthians 5:20

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

This is the part B57 refuses to see. Will you refuse, too? Think of it like Hatfield and McCoy. Mr. McCoy offers his hand in friendship. He puts aside all the past enmity. Now each of us is like Mr. Hatfield. We can be reconciled and shake hands, or we can turn our back and refuse the peace that has been offered.

Here's the problem. First John says nothing about God's wrath only being propitious for those who believe, or will believe. It says that His wrath is satisfied. However, John 3 says it remains on unbelievers. It doesn't say it returned. It says it remains.

It does take two to tango or God's wrath to be satisfied. It takes the Father and the Son. When Jesus said it is finished, it was finished.

So it can't be finished and not finished at the same time. All your fancy dancin' won't change that.

glorydaz · Oct 16, 2015

NickCharles said:
Here's the problem. First John says nothing about God's wrath only being propitious for those who believe, or will believe. It says that His wrath is satisfied. However, John 3 says it remains on unbelievers. It doesn't say it returned. It says it remains.

It does take two to tango or God's wrath to be satisfied. It takes the Father and the Son. When Jesus said it is finished, it was finished.

So it can't be finished and not finished at the same time. All your fancy dancin' won't change that.

I'm not the one doing the fancy dancing. Your refusal to address my post shows you don't want to understand reconciliation. I call that willful ignorance. :think:

NickCharles · Oct 16, 2015

glorydaz said:
I'm not the one doing the fancy dancing. Your refusal to address my post shows you don't want to understand reconciliation. I call that willful ignorance. :think:

My question has to do with wrath. The fact is that you changed it to something else.

glorydaz · Oct 16, 2015

NickCharles said:
My question has to do with wrath. The fact is that you changed it to something else.

No, God's wrath comes upon His enemies. His enmity against mankind was dealt with by Christ's death on the cross. Sin has been dealt with. Now each man must deal with his own personal enmity against God. He does that by believing (ie justified by faith.) Reconciled by His death....saved by His LIFE.

Romans 5:1-2
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

This is really very simple. Say you and I are enemies. I have forgiven you, but in order for there to be peace between us, you must accept my forgiveness. I'm willing to shake hands but you are not. A one sided peace is no peace at all.

NickCharles · Oct 16, 2015

glorydaz said:
No, God's wrath comes upon His enemies. His enmity against mankind was dealt with by Christ's death on the cross. Sin has been dealt with. Now each man must deal with his own personal enmity against God. He does that by believing (ie justified by faith.) Reconciled by His death....saved by His LIFE.

Romans 5:1-2

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

This is really very simple. Say you and I are enemies. I have forgiven you, but in order for there to be peace between us, you must accept my forgiveness. I'm willing to shake hands but you are not. A one sided peace is no peace at all.

Let's try this. In 1 John 2:2, has God's wrath been satisfied against all sin for all people for all time (in your theology)?

glorydaz · Oct 16, 2015

NickCharles said:
Let's try this. In 1 John 2:2, has God's wrath been satisfied against all sin for all people for all time (in your theology)?

Yes, "against all sin". But what good will that do if you have no LIFE? You get LIFE by believing...which is what I told you the MUCH MORE was. Reconciled by His death (sin taken care of), MUCH MORE saved by His LIFE. In Him is LIFE.

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

God's wrath abides on those with no life. They refuse to be reconciled. They turn away from the hand that is offered. They have no life because they believe not....not because the price has not been paid for their sins, but because they refuse it.

serpentdove · Oct 17, 2015

Brother Ducky said:
OK. Not sure what you are trying to do here.

All must receive the Holy Spirit (Ac 2:38). Men who reject Christ will be forever separated from God (Mt 8:12).

NickCharles · Oct 17, 2015

glorydaz said:
Yes, "against all sin". But what good will that do if you have no LIFE? You get LIFE by believing...which is what I told you the MUCH MORE was. Reconciled by His death (sin taken care of), MUCH MORE saved by His LIFE. In Him is LIFE.

John 3:36

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

God's wrath abides on those with no life. They refuse to be reconciled. They turn away from the hand that is offered. They have no life because they believe not....not because the price has not been paid for their sins, but because they refuse it.

We aren't talking about life right now. We are talking about God's wrath. So let's not get off the subject. Having God not mad at your sin does not mean you have life. That's a separate issue.

If God's wrath is satisfied, does that mean He's not longer angry at sinners?

Robert Pate · Oct 17, 2015

NickCharles said:
We aren't talking about life right now. We are talking about God's wrath. So let's not get off the subject. Having God not mad at your sin does not mean you have life. That's a separate issue.

If God's wrath is satisfied, does that mean He's not longer angry at sinners?

Only those who are outside of Christ will experience God's wrath.

NickCharles · Oct 17, 2015

Robert Pate said:
Only those who are outside of Christ will experience God's wrath.

So then you agree that 1 John 2:2 cannot be talking about every person who ever lived. And that He cannot have reconciled the whole world to Himself, as you understand the word "world".

He cannot have wrath against those He's reconciled with.

Brother Ducky · Oct 17, 2015

serpentdove said:
All must receive the Holy Spirit (Ac 2:38). Men who reject Christ will be forever separated from God (Mt 8:12).

Still not sure if you agree or disagree with my post, or if you just want to imply that I, either as an individual or as a member of the Reformed folk category of people.

I will agree that those who do not have the Holy Spirit at the time of death are indeed damned. I think we would have the monergist/synergist disagreement, though.

Robert Pate · Oct 17, 2015

NickCharles said:
So then you agree that 1 John 2:2 cannot be talking about every person who ever lived. And that He cannot have reconciled the whole world to Himself, as you understand the word "world".

He cannot have wrath against those He's reconciled with.

How many times do I have to say it?

The Bible says that Jesus has reconciled the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

In 1 John 2:2 John is talking to Christians that are believers and have received God's offer to be reconciled to him.

If you don't receive God's offer of reconciliation its not yours.

NickCharles · Oct 17, 2015

Robert Pate said:
How many times do I have to say it?

The Bible says that Jesus has reconciled the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

In 1 John 2:2 John is talking to Christians that are believers and have received God's offer to be reconciled to him.

If you don't receive God's offer of reconciliation its not yours.

So in 2:2, what does he mean by whole world if he's only talking to those who have been reconciled?

serpentdove · Oct 17, 2015

Brother Ducky said:
Still not sure if you agree or disagree with my post, or if you just want to imply that I, either as an individual or as a member of the Reformed folk category of people.

:dizzy: Eph 4:14

Robert Pate · Oct 17, 2015

NickCharles said:
So in 2:2, what does he mean by whole world if he's only talking to those who have been reconciled?

You have a serious problem with the Bible. You don't believe it.

It is no wonder because Calvinism is anti-Bible.

You don't seem to have a problem believing Calvinist writings which are false, but you fret over the Bible which is God's word.

NickCharles · Oct 17, 2015

Robert Pate said:
You have a serious problem with the Bible. You don't believe it.

It is no wonder because Calvinism is anti-Bible.

You don't seem to have a problem believing Calvinist writings which are false, but you fret over the Bible which is God's word.

I've noticed a pattern. Every time you can't answer a question that shows the weakness of your position, you launch into a personal attack. Either I'm not a Christian or I don't believe the bible.

So how about you stop the personal stuff and either answer the question, or admit that you cannot without doing serious harm to your theology.

Robert Pate · Oct 17, 2015

NickCharles said:
I've noticed a pattern. Every time you can't answer a question that shows the weakness of your position, you launch into a personal attack. Either I'm not a Christian or I don't believe the bible.

So how about you stop the personal stuff and either answer the question, or admit that you cannot without doing serious harm to your theology.

I have answered all of your questions with scripture.

You don't believe what the bible says.

Ask Mr. Religion · Oct 17, 2015

Robert Pate said:
I have answered all of your questions with scripture.

That response, absent clear explication of what you actually think nakedly quoted Scripture means is relegating Scripture to a mere cudgel, Robert. You can do better.

AMR

glorydaz · Oct 17, 2015

NickCharles said:
I've noticed a pattern. Every time you can't answer a question that shows the weakness of your position, you launch into a personal attack. Either I'm not a Christian or I don't believe the bible.

So how about you stop the personal stuff and either answer the question, or admit that you cannot without doing serious harm to your theology.

What would you have him do? Lie and say you do know the Bible?

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