R the 144,000 of Rev 7 the same as the 144,000 of Rev 14?

The amillennial interpretation of the 144,000 is that they represent all the saved people of all time, and not a remnant that comes about in the end time. This has been the Catholic position on the 144,000 and many of the traditional Calvinists also. Of course, the amillenial position does not see the 144,000 as being a remnant at the end of the age, right before Christ appears, nor does it see them as a remnant at all.

They have to be a remnant when they are sealed over some period in time. As a remnant, they, like earlier remnants used by God, began anew his work of redemption when the multitude has fallen away into false doctrines and practices. And here is where those in the false doctrines reject this teaching of a falling away and of a remnant that takes up anew the work of redemption for the Lord.

The remnant in Romans 11: 1-5 began again, the work of redemption in a more important way, than did the remnant which under Zerubbabel, Ezra and Nehemiah returned to Jerusalem to rebuild the wall and temple and restore the Old Covenant. In Haggai 2: 9, "The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the Lord of hosts..."

Since the 144,000 are sealed, come into existence, at a specific time, the end time, not long before the return of Christ, they must have a mission. And that mission involves the predicted falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 and the work of the False Prophets of Matthew 24 in what it called the tribulation.

There are some Old Testament prophecies in Zechariah 13: 8-9 and in Ezekiel 5: 1-12 that are relevant to the remnant, which would include the 144,000. I am not sure at this time whether that remnant mentioned in Revelation 12: 17, having the testimony of Christ, is the 144,000 or not, but they very well could be. This is because of the meaning of the metaphoric language in Revelation 12 about the dragon-serpent casting a flood (of lies) out of his mouth and going to make war with the remnant. This is the time when the False Prophets are at a high point in their work of diminishing the spiritual power of the truth of God's word.

"And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God." Zechariah 13: 8-9

The three parts in Zechariah 13: 8-9 do not have to be three exact one-thirds of some population. Its just three groups or parts, where only one part or one group is refined and tried and made a people of God. The one part refined and made a people of God could be a remnant, a few people.

"And thou, son of man, take thee a sharp knife, take thee a barber's rasor, and cause it to pass upon thine head and upon thy beard: then take thee balances to weight, and divide the hair.
2. Thou shalt burn with fire a third part in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are fulfilled: and thou shalt take a third part, and smite about it with a knife: and a third part thou shalt scatter in the wind; and I will draw out a sword after them. 3. Thou shalt also take thereof a few in number, and bind them in thy skirts..............A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them." Ezekiel 5: 1-3, 12

Here again, though in metaphoric language, we have three parts. But look there is another smaller group which is bound in Ezekiel's skirts, which is a remnant. Ezekiel 5 does not say what the Lord plans to do with these few in number bound in Ezekiel's skirts. Putting Ezekiel 5 together with Zechariah 13: 9, we can see that this group of few in Ezekiel's skirts become the people of God.

Hosea 14:9 says "Who is wise, and he shall understand these things? prudent, and he shall know them? for the ways of the LORD are right, and the just shall walk in them: but the transgressors shall fall therein. Who is wise? " Again, those who understand are contrasted in Hosea 14: 9 with the transgressors, the pasha, Strong's 6586, meaning not just those who commit sins, but meaning "to break away from just authority, trespass, apostatize, quarrel, offend rebel, revolt....." The opposition, the conflict, the separation, is between those who understand, now the remnant, and the pasha, whose who quarrel with the truth.

The point is that Revelation 7 and 14 on the 144,000 cannot be fully understood in total isolation from other scripture. Scripture must always be interpreted by other relevant scripture, but the other scriptures you use to interpret scripture have to be relevant as you are led by the Holy Spirit in selecting the right scriptures to use.

"For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:" Isaiah 28: 10

Isaiah 28: 10 is one authority for interpreting scripture by relevant scripture and not by a tradition of men (Matthew 15: 6, 9).

RevTestament said:

Doesn't this seem to tell us that the 144,000 of Rev 7 are sealed unto God before the plagues of the seventh seal?

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They are sealed before the trumpets which all occur before the 7th seal vials of wrath begin.

Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

LA

northwye said:

The amillennial interpretation of the 144,000 is that they represent all the saved people of all time, and not a remnant that comes about in the end time. This has been the Catholic position on the 144,000 and many of the traditional Calvinists also. Of course, the amillenial position does not see the 144,000 as being a remnant at the end of the age, right before Christ appears, nor does it see them as a remnant at all.

They have to be a remnant when they are sealed over some period in time. As a remnant, they, like earlier remnants used by God, began anew his work of redemption when the multitude has fallen away into false doctrines and practices. And here is where those in the false doctrines reject this teaching of a falling away and of a remnant that takes up anew the work of redemption for the Lord.

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Genealogy of Luke Correspondence to 144,000

(Groupings by Influential Stances)

Revelation Tribes (Mystery of First Heaven1, Mystery of Water2, Mystery of the Earth3)
REVELATION 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda3 [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben1 [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad2 [were] sealed twelve thousand.
Baptismal Tribes (Mystery of Angels1, Mystery of the Spirit2, Mystery of the Deep3)
REVELATION 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser2 [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim1 [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses3 [were] sealed twelve thousand.
High Priest Tribes (Mystery of Melchisedec1, Mystery of the Gospel2, Mystery of the Sons of God3)
REVELATION 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon2[were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi3 [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar1 [were] sealed twelve thousand.
Creation Tribes (Mystery before the 5 Months1, Mystery of 5 Months established2, Mystery of 5 Months Abolished3)
REVELATION 7:8Of the tribe of Zabulon1 [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph3 [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin2 [were] sealed twelve thousand.

God - Reuben (144,000 of Heaven, no Satan)
Adam - Issachar (Melchisedec the High Priest, Jesus as a High Priest) (establishes the gospel)
Seth - Zabulon (The Curse)
Enos - Nepthalim (Jesus as an Angel) (gives the gospel)
Cainan - Simeon (Wars against the Holy Spirit as a High Priest)
Maleleel - Gad (attributed to Holy Spirit)
Jared - Juda (tribe separated from the 144,000)
Enoch - Benjamin (Tribe connected to Heavenly Salvation)
Mathusala - Aser (attributed to the Holy Spirit)
Lamech - Manasses (The Curse Times Seventy)
Noe - Levi (Jesus speaking through Sons of God) (brings the Gospel)
Sem - Joseph (The Blessing)

(You must observe the intelligent design, as a prophecy revealed about the gospel. Gad and Aser replace Dan and Aaron from the transition in the tribes from Chronicles to Revelation, because the Holy Spirit is receiving the Blessing. In this judgment program, which is attributed to Benjamin as the Heavenly Salvation ... the Holy Spirit is restricted with a Curse ...)

Enoch Walked with God, and he was the Seventh From Adam. However, God created the Earth in Six Days, and this happened before Enoch (Establishing and completing the 144,000 of Heavenly Salvation in its completeness before the Events of Genesis):

6 Days of Creation according to Genesis:

1. Adam
2. Seth
3. Enos
4. Cainan
5. Mahalaleel
6. Jared (Heavenly Salvation Program of 66 Souls completed before Creation Began, when you take away, God/Jesus/Enoch/Joseph (Moses the Antichrist)
7. Enoch

Moses was saved as a "Fallen Angel" by God, or he was created as a perfect being. All that means is God did not complete Moses's Judgment with this Judgment Program, Moses's Judgment was completed in another of God's Judgments, and then God just introduced him as a perfect being. Where as all the other 66 Souls God had finished their judgment of Heavenly Salvation as apart of the basis of Creation of this Earth and Universe. God never judged them for Salvation at all, when he resurrected them to give the Gospel that is recorded in the Bible's 66 books.

God has the tremendous problem of reducing his "Foot Print", with the Holy Spirit, because God is not making slaves .......... God wants 100% of the Gospel's Account since Creation to be accredited to the Holy Spirit, the salvation program spoken of is simply Naphtali's 200,000,000 unless it is attributed to the Separatist Inheritors* at the end of time when Satan is united to the "Body of Christ". And the 144,000 reflects both the "Body of Benjamin" that was accounted for in full shortly before Creation, and the 144,000 of Satan that joins the "Body of Benjamin", and then they are together called the "Body of Christ".

After the end of the 153 days all the saved are taken up with the saints then the body of satan is divided accordingly in the new universe. ........................ When I said the Apostle Peter was counted as a Phoney in another discussion, and the Antichrist will be seen as a Phoney too ............. what I was trying to say was, Jesus declared with the Apostle Peter that no more Sons of God would be given, but at the end of days, another like unto the Son of God would come, that would be the Antichrist. It is just because God finished the judgment of the Antichrist outside of this judgment program altogether, that Jesus can make that claim. Nonetheless the Antichrist is the Law and the Prophets, and that is why God allows him to confirm the covenant. We are now less then 30 days until a portion of Dan and a portion of Aaron are terminated to announce both the "Sacrifice by Fire", and the "Marriage by Fire".

The 144,000 of Reuben is an isolated figure, God never began his Heavenly Salvation in the first place after creation started. However, the 144,000 of Benjamin has been counting like the Heavenly Salvation program has been established at creation ............ that is because God is gathering his Body or the "Body of Christ", which is completed when the 144,000 of the Saints and Satan are taken up together by God, and then God gives them both the blessing.

The 66 Souls, plus Moses in addition, God had resurrected to give the gospel were saving the 144,000 of Benjamin, yes that is a true statement. It was for Christ's sake that he sent his elect, and to save a great many that belong to his church. That is because the judgment program is immediately designed to give Satan the full potential the gospel affords. It is for these reasons, the people that are allowed to remain alive, are there only to reprove the believers, but when they do not reflect the gospel's program that are immediately put down and deceased. That is why certain groups of people that attempt to kill the antichrist, do so as their natural instinct. "No-Man the Son of Perdition", attempts to glorify himself in suicide when the Antichrist is prepared to reign for the 150 days. Right before that are euthanized, weather it is the war on terrorism, the lives don't matter campaigns, or the trophy killings.

When 9/11/2001 happen an a great deal of certain groups of people, were deceased, the authorities simply moved in the trucks and removed the evidences of these events, and claimed a much greater number of people were originally in the twin towers. Figures if you recall, were ultimately disputed, and later clarified. (We have a 10 hour walk on tuesday for public safety, the discovery of Flight 370, the truth will never reach the public, much like the truth that reached the International Space Station will never reach the public, unless you are prepared to do the full law of the "Marriage by Fire", by that time, do not do anything and make your peace with God instead.

(Zebulon is really the concealed Star Wormwood, where as Joseph is the revealed Star Wormwood ........... I've called it a curse only to illustrate transition. The "High Priest" is seen as a curse or as damned, because the "Body of Christ" must be measured, and that requires the resolution of the Curse or the unrevealed Star Wormwood, etc.) (Therefore, Zebulon escaped Heaven, and was Cursed, if so Manasseh is connected to the New Heaven, and has the Greater Curse, etc.) (Cain killed his brother and God spoke to his Blood, which all Blood must become Water to inherit Star Wormwood ............... therefore when God spoke to Abel, because God spoke to his Blood, God had viewed Abel as a curse, etc.)

I say they are the same. The best tip i have for reading Revelation is to cut it in half. Chapters 1-11 tell you the story, then chapters 12-22 basically restate the story in a symbolic way. If you try that, you'll see how much sense it makes. When that was pointed out to me, it made it easier to understand

Daniel1769 said:

I say they are the same. The best tip i have for reading Revelation is to cut it in half. Chapters 1-11 tell you the story, then chapters 12-22 basically restate the story in a symbolic way. If you try that, you'll see how much sense it makes. When that was pointed out to me, it made it easier to understand

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They are the same. Revelation is told about 3 times using different symbols.

The Woman of Rev 12, The 144,000 and the two witnesses all represent the same group of people.

Daniel1769 said:

I say they are the same. The best tip i have for reading Revelation is to cut it in half. Chapters 1-11 tell you the story, then chapters 12-22 basically restate the story in a symbolic way. If you try that, you'll see how much sense it makes. When that was pointed out to me, it made it easier to understand

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Revelation 4 - 144,000 under Reuben, SEALED by Melchisedec (Before Abraham the Homosapien, Christ as a High Priest making intercession with God for the Saved)

REVELATION 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
GENESIS 46:13 And the sons of Issachar; Tola, and Phuvah, and Job, and Shimron.

If Issachar can serve as another name for Melchisedek, then God had to SEAL 144,000 before Satan's judgment program began under the Gospel, Satan as a picture of Job (from the book of Job).

Revelation 7 - 144,000 under Benjamin, SEALED by the "Lamb Slain" (Christ as an Angel, relative to the "3 Days of Darkness")

REVELATION 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
NEHEMIAH 7:52 The children of Besai, the children of Meunim, the children of Nephishesim,

If Nepthalim (Rev. 7), is a description of Christ as an Angel, then it follows that Christ is serving as a High Priest. To measure the "Body of Benjamin". The 144,000 that Satan must parallel to complete the judgment program and to bring about the "3 Days of Darkness". The revealing of Star Wormwood, represents the fact that Christ has completed this task as the Lamb Slain (Christ as a High Priest in the form of an Angel, that is what Christ began to do after he was resurrected from the Tomb, and he revealed himself as an Angel). (This would naturally coincide with the Genealogy of Luke 3 in which Jesus represents the conclusion of God moving over the Spiritual Church, so that the switch could take place and Jesus's Church could move over the Spiritual Church instead (Benjamin takes Precedence as the form of measurement, no longer relating to Reuben).

Revelation 14 - 144,000 of Star Wormwood under Levi (Christ acting through the "Two Witnesses", or through the Antichrist, in order to SEAL the 144,000 of Star Wormwood)

REVELATION 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
PSALMS 135:20 Bless the LORD, O house of Levi: ye that fear the LORD, bless the LORD.
PSALMS 135:21 Blessed be the LORD out of Zion, which dwelleth at Jerusalem. Praise ye the LORD.

The Antichrist/Joseph is appointed to reign over Judah (the Lion of Judah, and the Root of David, since he represents the "Two Witnesses", Moses and Elias) ............. Judah's Separatist Inheritance* is called Zion/Sion, and for 153 days only Judah will exist, only the "Heart of Judah will Exist" for 153 Days. There are really 3, total divisions to the description of 144,000. As a system of Measurement.

(When God was satisfied in Heaven that 144,000 was obtained under Reuben and the Souls were all saved before the foundation of the Earth, 66 Souls Plus the God Head, making 70 Souls total ................ then God created the Earth, and brought in Satan after the 5 months of Noah's Flood .................... then the 144,000 of Benjamin began to be measured, and when God is satisfied that is when the "3 and 1/2 Days of Darkness" begins, by the time that is finished God is finished measure the 144,000 of Benjamin ................ then the 144,000 of Levi that is of Star Wormwood will be measured for 150 days .................. when that is completed God will reward the New Planets to the People as the Body of Satan's Judgment is completed, and Satan is rewarded in the New Universe.)

(The Paradox of Moses as the Fallen Angel, "Moses and Elias", Elias is another name for God, not another name for Jesus Christ. When Jesus was on the cross, he called to Elias, indicating a reference to the 144,000 of Reuben that was measured before Creation, before Adam and Eve, before the Stars, before the Creation of the Earth. ....................... Moses is portrayed as a fallen angel because he is a representation of Reuben's 144,000, not because he is an alien. ............................. the way God deals with multiverses, he has protrayed his salvation program as a separate universe, so popping out Moses, resembles how God allows fallen angels to pop out-and then into this universe to bare witness. Moses must confirm the covenant, and he has, there isn't much time left on the table, but we've done considerable good, leading to the conclusion, soon.)

The woman of Revelation 12 is the mother of the remnant seen in Revelation 12: 17. Revelation 12: 17 says the dragon goes to make war with the remnant of the woman's seed, meaning she is their mother metaphorically, just as Paul says in Galatians 4: 26 there is a Jerusalem which is above, is free, and is the mother of us all. The literalists reject this and claim there is only one Jerusalem, which is seen in Galatians 4: 25, the literal Jerusalem which now is and is in bondage with her children. Jerusalem is Israel, the Old Covenant in verse 25 and the New Covenant in verse 26, but it is also pointing to Revelation 21: 1-2, the New Jerusalem, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. The 144,000 are starting to build that new Jerusalem

Paul means the Jerusalem which is above and is free is the mother of all the elect of God. There is no other woman in scripture that fits here. Her seed, the remnant, are either the 144,000, or they are acting in a way like the 144,000 at a different point in the end time, but I suspect they might be the exact same 144,000.

If you are seeing the two witnesses of Revelation 11 as being that remnant in Revelation 12: 17 and are also the 144,000 then you have some part of the truth. In Revelation 11: 7-10 the Two Witnesses are spiritually killed by the beast out of the bottomless pit, but the Spirit of God brings them into spiritual life in Revelation 11: 11.

It is true that scripture often brings the same gist meanings to us in different surface wordings and by the use of different metaphors. This is why it is so important to understand and follow Isaiah 28: 10, "precept upon precept...line upon line, here a little and there a little," and not try to keep each text isolated in its own compartment. "For the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life." II Corinthians 3: 6

northwye said:

If you are seeing the two witnesses of Revelation 11 as being that remnant in Revelation 12: 17 and are also the 144,000 then you have some part of the truth. In Revelation 11: 7-10 the Two Witnesses are spiritually killed by the beast out of the bottomless pit, but the Spirit of God brings them into spiritual life in Revelation 11: 11.

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(The Humane and Gospel friendly way to put this. God stopped judging the 144,000 of Reuben when Creation began period, End of Story. At the same time God had the 144,000 of Reuben in view for his own purposes, until "Jesus came as a Fallen Angel", that is until Christ was Born. Then it was later revealed that Jesus took what portion of the 144,000 God had in view of Reuben with him, when he rose out of the tomb. .......................... Now Moses the Antichrist is a picture of the 144,000 of Reuben, so God once again places Reuben into view very briefly at the end of time. ................... the judgment of Reuben's 144,000 is completed, but God has Reuben in view for his own purposes once again, perhaps to save some by the diversity of his judgment, God does not simply make angels that simply just by viewing the Holy Spirit or this creation alone, thats an impossibility ........................ the 144,000 of Benjamin took precedence when Christ came as a Fallen Angel, when he was born. Now Jesus Christ made the claim that he was saving people, yes he was saving Separatist Inheritors* for the New Universe, that is 100% true, SATAN MUST GO TO GOD IN HEAVEN, to complete the judgment, what Jesus said was 100% true, and its true today. ................................ When the "Two Witnesses" are slain, when the "3 Days of Darkness" are begun, God is finished with the 144,000 of Benjamin. God must then place the final touches on his judgment program to finish it, for the 153 Days of Star Wormwood, technically that is the 144,000 of Levi, or simply of Star Wormwood, since revelation makes that statement) (comment enclosed in parenthesis).

northwye said:

The woman of Revelation 12 is the mother of the remnant seen in Revelation 12: 17. Revelation 12: 17 says the dragon goes to make war with the remnant of the woman's seed, meaning she is their mother metaphorically, just as Paul says in Galatians 4: 26 there is a Jerusalem which is above, is free, and is the mother of us all. The literalists reject this and claim there is only one Jerusalem, which is seen in Galatians 4: 25, the literal Jerusalem which now is and is in bondage with her children. Jerusalem is Israel, the Old Covenant in verse 25 and the New Covenant in verse 26, but it is also pointing to Revelation 21: 1-2, the New Jerusalem, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. The 144,000 are starting to build that new Jerusalem

Paul means the Jerusalem which is above and is free is the mother of all the elect of God. There is no other woman in scripture that fits here. Her seed, the remnant, are either the 144,000, or they are acting in a way like the 144,000 at a different point in the end time, but I suspect they might be the exact same 144,000.

If you are seeing the two witnesses of Revelation 11 as being that remnant in Revelation 12: 17 and are also the 144,000 then you have some part of the truth. In Revelation 11: 7-10 the Two Witnesses are spiritually killed by the beast out of the bottomless pit, but the Spirit of God brings them into spiritual life in Revelation 11: 11.

It is true that scripture often brings the same gist meanings to us in different surface wordings and by the use of different metaphors. This is why it is so important to understand and follow Isaiah 28: 10, "precept upon precept...line upon line, here a little and there a little," and not try to keep each text isolated in its own compartment. "For the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life." II Corinthians 3: 6

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They are all sealed and protected for time, times and a half, 42 months or 1260 days respectively. Rev 12:17 does not say remnant of her seed. It says offspring.

achduke said:

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

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The two witnesses are the two kingdoms of Israel, Judah and Joseph. Which comprises the 144,000. 12,000 from every tribe of Judah and Joseph.

achduke said:

Ezekiel 37:16 "As for you, son of man, take a stick for yourself and write on it: 'For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions.' Then take another stick and write on it, 'For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions.'

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The Textus Receptus for Revelation 12: 17 says "και ωργισθη ο δρακων επι τη γυναικι και απηλθεν ποιησαι πολεμον μετα των λοιπων του σπερματος αυτης των τηρουντων τας εντολας του θεου και εχοντων την μαρτυριαν του ιησου χριστου"

The Westcott-Hort Greek says "και ωργισθη ο δρακων επι τη γυναικι και απηλθεν ποιησαι πολεμον μετα των λοιπων του σπερματος αυτης των τηρουντων τας εντολας του θεου και εχοντων την μαρτυριαν ιησου"

For Revelation 12: 17 the two Greek texts agree, but that is not always the case. The Westcott-Hort has Jesus and not Jesus Christ.

λοιπων is Strong's number 3062, loipoy, remaining ones, which remain, remnant, residue, rest. The same Greek word, loipoy is used in Revelation 11: 13, and in Revelation 19: 21, and is translated as remnant in the three early English New Testaments.

In Revelation 11: 5 remnant is from Strong's 3005, leimma, a remainder, remnant.

And in Romans 9: 27 remnant is from Strong's 2640, kataleimma, which Strong's says means "a remainder, i.e, by implication, a few, remnant.

The 1526 Tyndale New Testament for Revelation 12: 17 says "And the dragon was wroth with the woman: and went and made war with the remnant of her seed which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Iesus Christ."

The 1599 Geneva Bible for Revelation 12: 17 has "Then the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went and made war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

The third early English Bible, the King James, has "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

The New Revised Standard has "Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus."

The New International says "Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus."

As reported here the New King James Version has for Revelation 12: 17: "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Young's Literal Translation says "and the dragon was angry against the woman, and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, those keeping the commands of God, and having the testimony of Jesus Christ."

All four of the recent English Bible translations shown above translate Strong's number 3062, loipoy, as rest, saying the rest of her seed, or the rest of her offspring.

Here are the Oxford Dictionaries on the meanings of remnant and the rest: Remnant: "Origin: Middle English: contraction of obsolete remenant, from Old French, from remenoir, remanoir 'remain'. "A small remaining quantity of something," "Christian Theology: A small minority of people who will remain faithful to God and so be saved (in allusion to biblical prophecies concerning Israel)." Rest: Origin: Late Middle English: from Old French reste (noun), rester (verb), from Latin restare 'remain," "The remaining part of something," "The remaining people or things; the others," "and (all) the rest (of it)."

Remnant and rest can overlap to some extent in their meanings, in the sense that a remnant is the rest of something which remains, while the larger part does not remain. But translating loipoy as the rest of something tends to lead the meaning away from the Biblical concept of a few people who remain faithful to God, to the doctrines of Christ, while the multitude goes off into false doctrines and practices.

So, there is a change of doctrine, though subtle or ambiguous, from the first three English New Testaments based upon the Textus Receptus, for Revelation 12: 17 on the meaning of loipoy, to the recent English translations, almost all from the Westcott-Hort Greek and not the Textus Receptus.

In his commentary on Revelation 12: 17 John Gill says "and went to make war with the remnant of her seed; which refers to the war the beast, to whom he gave his power, seat, and authority, is said to make with the saints; and which was entered into and carried on by his instigation, of which there is an account in the following chapter: the persons with whom he went to make war are described as "her seed"; the seed of the church, her spiritual offspring, the sons and daughters she brought forth to Christ; between which seed, and Satan and his seed, there always was an enmity: and these are "the remnant" of her seed, a few persons scattered up and down, a remnant according to the election of grace; who were not in bodies, or in church states, regularly formed, as heretofore, but in private families, and some here, and some there; and who were called out to bear a testimony for Christ in corrupt times: and these are further described as such."

Many or most of the churches in 2015 would not agree with what John Gill says above on Revelation 12: 17, that the remnant is called out to bear a testimony for Christ in corrupt times. For the churches there are no corrupt times, no falling away from sound doctrine (II Thessalonians 2: 3-4). The dominant tradition of men is dispensationalism. And if you look up on Google the guys on the committee that translated the New King James you will find that most of them were dispensationalists, with a few who were Calvinists. The dispensationalists see no remnant of the church. And in fact scripture never talks about a remnant of the ekklesia, the church, only a remnant of Israel.

This is all related to the mission of the 144,000 and to it being a remnant in the end times with the testimony of Christ when the multitude is off into false doctrines. The doctrine of the remnant in Revelation 12: 17 was changed in a subtle way from that of the earlier Tyndale, Geneva Bible and King James Version.

northwye said:

In his commentary on Revelation 12: 17 John Gill says "and went to make war with the remnant of her seed; which refers to the war the beast, to whom he gave his power, seat, and authority, is said to make with the saints; and which was entered into and carried on by his instigation, of which there is an account in the following chapter: the persons with whom he went to make war are described as "her seed"; the seed of the church, her spiritual offspring, the sons and daughters she brought forth to Christ; between which seed, and Satan and his seed, there always was an enmity: and these are "the remnant" of her seed, a few persons scattered up and down, a remnant according to the election of grace; who were not in bodies, or in church states, regularly formed, as heretofore, but in private families, and some here, and some there; and who were called out to bear a testimony for Christ in corrupt times: and these are further described as such."

Many or most of the churches in 2015 would not agree with what John Gill says above on Revelation 12: 17, that the remnant is called out to bear a testimony for Christ in corrupt times. For the churches there are no corrupt times, no falling away from sound doctrine (II Thessalonians 2: 3-4). The dominant tradition of men is dispensationalism. And if you look up on Google the guys on the committee that translated the New King James you will find that most of them were dispensationalists, with a few who were Calvinists. The dispensationalists see no remnant of the church. And in fact scripture never talks about a remnant of the ekklesia, the church, only a remnant of Israel.

This is all related to the mission of the 144,000 and to it being a remnant in the end times with the testimony of Christ when the multitude is off into false doctrines. The doctrine of the remnant in Revelation 12: 17 was changed in a subtle way from that of the earlier Tyndale, Geneva Bible and King James Version.

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My point is that the mission of the 144,000 of Rev 7 doesn't seem to be very related to "the end times" you speak about which are in the 7th seal and there after. Their work of bringing the law and the prophecies concerning the period are done, and was accomplished in the the first 6 seals since they are all sealed unto God before the 7th seal is opened by Christ.
You seem to disagree with "dispensationalists" but the 7 seals themselves seem to speak of "dispensations." The first being Adam's who received the covenant of the Sabbath, then the Noahic covenant which was clearly a new dispensation, then the Abrahamic, then the Davidic, then Christ's (and John who introduced the token of the new covenant) in the 5th seal, etc.

Transition of 144,000 for the Purposes of Heavenly Salvation - Coming Full Circle

(The 144,000 is attributed to different Tribes for the reason of Heavenly Salvation ... very simply ... we are given figures of Heavenly Salvation from the Book of Daniel that accounts the Souls going to Heaven as a result of these transitions of the 144,000 ... along with a declaration about Heavenly Salvation of 70 Souls, before the Creation of Earth in Luke 3's Genealogy ............ now we must attempt to tie these together more faithfully)

(Our Previous Conclusion: 6000 is a figure of Heavenly Salvation, which is 2300 + 1290 + 1335 + 1075 (Book of Daniel's Figures + Abraham's Age, and Rev. 17:10). The 66 Souls of Luke 3's Genealogy are already saved, and they are not judged for Salvation, (Isolating, God, Jesus, Enoch, and Moses under Special Circumstances, as being saved before the 66 Souls of the 144,000 of Reuben)

1. 66 Souls Saved for the 144,000 of Reuben (Luke 3)
2. 6000 Souls Saved for the 144,000 of Benjamin (Daniel + Rev.)
3. Satan Saved for the 144,000 of Joseph, which is of Star Wormwood

Invalidation of Daniel Figure of 2300

DANIEL 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain [saint] which spake, How long [shall be] the vision [concerning] the daily [sacrifice], and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
DANIEL 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
REVELATION 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

1. Saint = 144,000 of Reuben (Heavenly Salvation - Saved)
2. Saint = 144,000 of Benjamin (Three and Half Days, ends the Body of Benjamin) (Heavenly Salvation - Saved)
3. Saint = 144,000 of Joseph (Star Wormwood the Vision/New Temple Revealed) (New Universe - Satan)

Daniel 8:13 is not a Literal figure for the Heavenly Salvation Program under the "144,000 of Benjamin", it is just stating that the, "Three Days and a Half" is the completion of the "144,000 of Benjamin" in its own way. We will Correct the Heavenly Salvation attributed to the "144,000 of Benjamin" based on the figures of Daniel and Revelation, to denote 6000 as a figure of the "Body of Benjamin" ................ "Body of Christ" = 144,000 of Benjamin and 144,000 of Joseph when Revelation is completed:


1290 from the "Body of Benjamin" saved when 144,000 of Reuben was Completed before Time (Daniel 12:11)
1335 from the "Body of Benjamin" saved when the 144,000 of Reuben was placed into the Earth with Moses, when he saw the Burning Bush (a picture of Star Wormwood) (Daniel 12:12-13)
1600 from the "Body of Benjamin" saved when the 144,000 of Reuben was taken from the Earth, when Christ rose from the tomb, and an Angel popped out and returned to heaven (Rev. 14:20)
1775 from the "Body of Benjamin" saved when the 144,000 of Benjamin returns to Heaven, when the "Three and a Half" days are completed (Rev. 11:11)

175 of Abraham's Age, remember Jesus as a High Priest or Melchisedek, spoke to Abraham to announce the completeness of his covenant for Heavenly Salvation. When the "Two Witnesses", are finished their return to heaven, the Gospel completes the fulness of its Heavenly Salvation Program. 666 the Mark of the Beast. 66 Saved recounted in Luke 3's Genealogy, and 6000 recounted through Daniel and Revelation. Or 666, the Gospel is very specific about this, the literal figure is 6066. There is no evidence to support the figure of 600 as referring to the "Body of Benjamin", if we follow the Language of the Gospel.

Daniel 8:13-14 references the 144,000 of Joseph (but accounting all the transitions of the 144,000) so the figure of 2300 cannot apply to the Heavenly Salvation Program, so that is a big mistake. But it is very close to the truth. Because we can still identify the 175 of Abraham. There was a statement made about revelation:

achduke said:

They are all sealed and protected for time, times and a half, 42 months or 1260 days respectively. Rev 12:17 does not say remnant of her seed. It says offspring.

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(Moses was placed into the earth he did not die, and he rests in the earth, until he is resurrected as the Antichrist, the Gospel says there was no grave or tomb, for Moses, Deu. 34:6, he did not rest with the saints .......... that is Daniel 12:12-13 description. The only other individual that behaved this way was Jesus Christ, when he was placed into the earth, and like Moses rising as the Antichrist, Jesus arrives at the end of time as the "Lamb Slain" to conclude the 144,000 of Benjamin)

Lets invalidate the figure of 1260, revelation uses!

"About 30 of Reuben", dividing the 144,000 of Reuben from Satan (1290 from Daniel 12:11 - 1260 from Rev. 12:6)
"About 30 of Benjamin", dividing the 144,000 of Benjamin from Satan (Judges 20:31)
"About 30 of Joseph", dividing the 144,000 of Joseph from Judah as a picture of Satan (Luke 3:23)

1. 42 Generation of Matthew, Jesus Came (42 Months of Rev.), Jesus Came as the Messiah to Remove the "144,000 of Reuben"
2. 12,000 Days or "About 30 Years", of Moses Lifespan as a Human Being, God removes the "144,000 of Benjamin"
3. About 3.5 Days Star Wormwood takes all the Tribes, during the 153 Days in which God removes the "144,000 of Joseph" from the Earth, and completes the "Body of Christ" which is "144,000 of Benjamin and 144,000 of Joseph" .............. (God leaves the "Heart of Judah/USA", as the outsider for 153 days, so they can gather to the "Body of Joseph")


"About 30" or the "Month of the Healing of the Nations", this is simply a parable based on the fact that God really hasn't given the Saved, his new angels, the full inheritance of heaven until the curse is resolved, until all of these "12,000" or "About 30" bit sized portions are collectively unified ............. that is until the "Body of Christ" is unified and returns to God, so he can reward both the Saints and Satan at the same time. That is how the Judgment is completed.

The Antichrist reigning over Judah for 150 days is simply the last arm of the process (the uniting of Judah and Joseph according to Rev. 5:5 and Ezekiel 37:16. Right now we have less then 25 days until the 144,000 of Benjamin begins to be completed. (The Antichrist intends to save 100% of the people some resurrected, if he gets everything he wants from God, and all living ............. were just acting out the conclusion of the gospel faithfully, this completes the conviction for those not apart of the covenant ............. so the 153 days are the finishing touch ............. we have another 10 hour walk on Tuesday to keep these people tamed until they are removed as a public threat).

"But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away." II Corinthians 3: 14-16

Translating loipoy (remaining ones, which remain, remnant, residue, rest) as the dragon "went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" in a subtle way puts a vail over the understanding of this verse.

Remember that the dragon-serpent is, at this time, casting out of his mouth a flood. This may be too hard for the literalists to understand, but it is saying the same thing as is said in Matthew 24: 5, 11, 24 and in II Peter 2: 1-3 on the false prophets having to come to their full.

The dragon going to make war with the rest of the woman's seed implies that he is going against some part of her seed. If the woman has more than one group of seeds, then which group would the dragon more likely go after? It would be that part which best has the testimony of Jesus Christ, who are the "rest of her seed." This is the remnant, despite the sleight of hand of the modern Bible version translators in using the word "rest" instead of "remnant."

The new Bible version translators not only put a vail over their own understanding of Revelation 12: 17, but also over the understanding of their readers who rely upon these new Bible versions rather than the Tyndale, Geneva and King James Bibles.

northwye said:

Remember that the dragon-serpent is, at this time, casting out of his mouth a flood. This may be too hard for the literalists to understand, but it is saying the same thing as is said in Matthew 24: 5, 11, 24 and in II Peter 2: 1-3 on the false prophets having to come to their full.

The dragon going to make war with the rest of the woman's seed implies that he is going against some part of her seed. If the woman has more than one group of seeds, then which group would the dragon more likely go after? It would be that part which best has the testimony of Jesus Christ, who are the "rest of her seed." This is the remnant, despite the sleight of hand of the modern Bible version translators in using the word "rest" instead of "remnant."

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Just to be clear, I am not saying that none of the 144,000 of Rev 7 can be the remnant you speak of. I actually agree that at least some of the 144,000 are of this remnant when the church is brought forth from the wilderness. I believe that probably most, however lived before the remnant of the church when it was restored from apostasy in Rev 12, and even before the 6th seal. So it is just a description of the last of the 144,000 being sealed in the 6th seal.

The new Bible version translators not only put a vail over their own understanding of Revelation 12: 17, but also over the understanding of their readers who rely upon these new Bible versions rather than the Tyndale, Geneva and King James Bibles.

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No matter which version is relied upon, I still read Rev 7 & Rev 12 basically the same way. The 2 witnesses of Rev 11 are of the 144,000 of Rev 14, and not the 144,000 of Rev 7. And yes, they are also of the remnant you speak of.

northwye said:

"But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away." II Corinthians 3: 14-16

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(Daniel 12:11 says an Angels takes 1290 ........ Acts 7:8 says an Angel takes 1290 (Jacob the Nineth, like the Twelve) ........ Daniel 12:12 says an Angels takes 1335 ......... Acts 20:7-9 says an Angel takes 1335 (using like figures and paralleling the language) .......... Rev. 14:9-10 says an Angel takes 1600 ......... Acts 18:10-11 says also this 1600 are taken to God ......... Hebrews 7:1 says the 1775 of Abraham (his age 175 yrs) are taken to God ............ Acts 3:24-25 the years of Abraham are called the Resurrection of Saul) (6000 Total is the "144,000 of Benjamin")

II CORINTHIANS 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.
II CORINTHIANS 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

1. Blinded = 144,000 of Reuben were SEALED by Melchisedek = Luke 22:64 Jesus is revealed as Melchisedek
2. Vail Established = 144,000 of Reuben levied against the 144,000 of Benjamin when Moses was given the 10 Commandants = Exodus 2:12 Moses Killed a Man
3. Vail Abolished = 144,000 of Reuben was Removed with Christ's resurrection = Matthew 28:2 Jesus reverses the placement of Reuben by restoring the Angel, Moses had killed.
4. Mark of the Beast = 144,000 of Benjamin that is taken when "Moses and Elias" the "Two Witnesses" are slain to begin the "3 Days of Darkness" (SEALED by the Lamb Slain, which is to complete the "Body of Benjamin") (When God resurrects Moses for 12,000 days this is like a restoration of the 144,000 of Reuben ... in order to complete the 144,000 of Benjamin ... once Reuben and Benjamin are completed then the 144,000 of Joseph is Revealed as Star Wormwood .... God has the final task of uniting the "Body of Benjamin to the Body of Joseph", then God takes Satan a picture of Joseph or Star Wormwood, and blesses him in the New Universe).

ACTS 27:27 But when the fourteenth night was come, as we were driven up and down in Adria, about midnight the shipmen deemed that they drew near to some country;
ACTS 27:28 And sounded, and found [it] twenty fathoms: and when they had gone a little further, they sounded again, and found [it] fifteen fathoms.
ACTS 27:29 Then fearing lest we should have fallen upon rocks, they cast four anchors out of the stern, and wished for the day.

We need to view this simply as a parable, very briefly we will state the following:

1. 144,000 of Reuben
2. 144,000 of Benjamin
3. 144,000 of Joseph (Revealed as the "Temple Stones" for 12 Hours or Half a Day)
4. 200,000,000 Attributed to Judah for 153 Days (Revealed as the Final Trumpet when the Remnant of Judah must be joined to Joseph)

200,000,000 is simply a dimension relating to Star Wormwood, that is the revealed version of Joseph as the Blessing. ............ 200,000,000 can be treated as a literal figure of salvation with the Holy Spirit under Naphtali as a Separatist Inheritor* of a New Planet of their own (the souls that have fell short like Samuel/Saul's Parable of the Ghost being resurrected, or the "Familiar Spirit/Ishmael") .................. 144,000 is not a Literal Figure, it represents a unifying of the Body of Christ, 12000 for Each Tribe or 12 sets of "about 30 days".

The New Testament says at least once maybe more "about 3 Thousand were saved", in an instant, true, but remember the Gospel views Star Wormwood like the "Body of Benjamin", on several accounts.

(Acts 15:1 says Moses judges Judah after his is circumcised, that is after he is given a new resurrected body ........ similarly only the "Heart of Judah" will remain the USA left living out of the whole world. We don't know who the Antichrist is but the people of a lesser mind which hold to lesser degrees for themselves, would likely view this as a statement of castration, to somehow justify the gospel ............ the rest of 9/11/2001 is history, and the stench of death continues to the lives don't matter campaigns, that happen globally)

Angel4Truth said:

No, it cannot include gentiles, it says expressly that its 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.


Revelation 7:4
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were 1sealed;

of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;

6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;

7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;

8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;

of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.

Pretty clear what it says there.

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Don't leave out those of verse 9, the great multitude of all nations, kindreds, and people and tongues (Gentiles) who stand along with the 12 tribes of Israel who physically survived the tribulation. They will serve God day and night in His temple vs.15. Also they have 'washed' their robes (repented or their sins), the 144K Saints of Rev.14 are given white robes at their resurrection.

The 144K of Rev.14 will Rule as Kings and Priests with Christ not serve day and night in His temple.

Joseph was one of Jacob's biological twelve sons, Manasseh wasn't.

The list left out Dan.

northwye said:

A question is what is the mission or purpose of the 144,000? It is true that some knowledge on this question is implied in Revelation 14: 1-5 and in Revelation 7: 1-8. Revelation 7: 3 says "...Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees. till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

The same Greek word, sphragizo, sealed, is used in II Corinthians 21-22, "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22. Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."

Sphragizo is also used in Ephesians 1: 22, "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise."

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." Ephesians 4: 30

The 144,000 are sealed with the Holy Spirit, and with an anointing, since I Corinthians 1: 21-22 says those sealed with the Holy Spirit also were anointed by Christ. But sealed and anointed for what mission?

In metaphoric language Revelation 14: 1 says the 144,000 stand with Christ, having the Father's name on their foreheads, on mount Zion. They stand in a high place spiritually, meaning they have been raised up high to stand with Jesus Christ. They sing a new song which no one but the 144,000 can learn - which is also metaphoric for a being in a higher spiritual state in their anointing and sealing. They are not defiled with woman, again in metaphoric language, and this fits with their not having guile, meaning they are not deceptive in a world filled with deception. They follow the Lamb whithersoever he leads, and are the firstfruits to God and Christ.

They are a remnant, but this language in Revelation 14 raises them up above other remnants in scripture, such as in Romans 11: 5, the remnant in which God began again his plan of redemption as the New Covenant. However, the Apostles of Christ, who were among that remnant, had a greater anointing directly from Christ than did most of the others There is also the remnant in Revelation 12: 17, who, at the time the serpent-dragon is casting out a flood of lies out of his mouth and is making war with this remnant, are said to have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

But you have to go outside of the Book of Revelation to find out what the mission of the 144,000 is.

"And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 34. Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 35. And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed."................"And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever." Daniel 11: 33-35 and Daniel 12: 3.

The dispensationalists will insist that all the 144,000 are all male Jews and will say that Daniel 11: 33-35 is not about the 144,000 because the 144,000 are not mentioned there. And Daniel 11: 33-35 could be applied to the work of the Apostles of Christ in the First Century, a fulfillment which does not necessarily mean it does not apply to the 144,000.

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The same word sphragizo is used in Rev 20 to describe the sealing of Satan, therefore though the seal is certainly secure, sphragizo must be understood in context and not narrowly by simply the definition of the word:

Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

jamie said:

Joseph was one of Jacob's biological twelve sons, Manasseh wasn't.

The list left out Dan.

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Why Dan is not mentioned as being among the 12 tribes to survive the tribulation is not known but you will notice that Dan is to be in the Ezk.37 (the whole house of Israel) resurrection and is given his portion of land in Ezk.48

Why would they be different?