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Thread: Battle Talk ~ BR XI

  1. #151
    Journeyman Sharri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by novice
    Forgiveness is forgiveness. If you lock someone in a cage as punishment for a crime you have not forgiven them


    I guess that's it. I never forgave Micheal Ross for what he did, for killing Robin (my friend). I don't know if I would be for the DP if this never happen. Is that wrong? I will never know how God sees this no matter how many times I ask.
    I wonder if this is my ticket to hell. I know this may not make any sense, the man did kill 8 woman, he is deceased now but how do you actually know he got what he deserved is that what God calls justice?

    I think I better read Turbos debate over again

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by novice
    Forgiveness is forgiveness. If you lock someone in a cage as punishment for a crime you have not forgiven them
    That is not true. If your 16-year-old son stole money from you, you would forgive him. But you would still make him give the money back and possibly take away his license for a week or make him clean the house or something, but you have still forgiven him for his wrong.

    I do not believe people should be given the death penalty; I believe they should be forgiven and punished--but not executed. I am not sure why that is so difficult to understand.

  3. #153
    Who is the stooge now? novice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primghar
    That is not true. If your 16-year-old son stole money from you, you would forgive him. But you would still make him give the money back and possibly take away his license for a week or make him clean the house or something, but you have still forgiven him for his wrong.
    I think it's rather obvious you do not understand what forgiveness means.

    What you have described above is my son "paying the price" for his disobedience.

    You have confused restitution with forgiveness.

    It seems to me you and Theo are attempting to redefine forgiveness. Let ask you something... do you believe that you need to add anything to the forgiveness that Jesus offers on the cross? Do you need to "give the money back", "clean the house" or have your license "taken away" (to borrow from your analogy above)?

    Do you believe that to attain forgiveness you need to not only repent but to pay restitution?


    I do not believe people should be given the death penalty; I believe they should be forgiven and punished--but not executed. I am not sure why that is so difficult to understand.
    It's difficult for you to explain because you are forced to alter the meaning of the word forgiveness to make your point.

    What you describe as forgiveness... is actually restitution.
    Oh, wise guy eh?

  4. #154
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharri
    I guess that's it. I never forgave Micheal Ross for what he did, for killing Robin (my friend). I don't know if I would be for the DP if this never happen. Is that wrong? I will never know how God sees this no matter how many times I ask.
    I wonder if this is my ticket to hell. I know this may not make any sense, the man did kill 8 woman, he is deceased now but how do you actually know he got what he deserved is that what God calls justice?

    I think I better read Turbos debate over again


    Sharri, I don't get what you are saying in this post. Can you explain a bit more?
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  5. #155
    Journeyman Sharri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight


    Sharri, I don't get what you are saying in this post. Can you explain a bit more?

    Micheal Ross,killed 8 New England woman, one of the women he killed was my friend. (Robin Stavinsky).
    I never let up on Ross or forgave him for what he did. is that wrong?
    How does God see this? Did Ross get the justice he deserved, how do you determine justice?

    not sure if this makes sense, I am not good at explaining (in typing) what I mean.

  6. #156
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharri
    I never let up on Ross or forgave him for what he did. is that wrong?
    Short answer... no.

    You cannot forgive someone else's debt. If my neighbor steals my friends lawnmower I have no right to forgive him of the debt he owes my friend.

    How does God see this? Did Ross get the justice he deserved, how do you determine justice?
    We (as a people) profaned God by not executing this murderer painfully and swiftly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by novice
    I think it's rather obvious you do not understand what forgiveness means.

    What you have described above is my son "paying the price" for his disobedience.

    You have confused restitution with forgiveness.

    It seems to me you and Theo are attempting to redefine forgiveness. Let ask you something... do you believe that you need to add anything to the forgiveness that Jesus offers on the cross? Do you need to "give the money back", "clean the house" or have your license "taken away" (to borrow from your analogy above)?

    Do you believe that to attain forgiveness you need to not only repent but to pay restitution?


    It's difficult for you to explain because you are forced to alter the meaning of the word forgiveness to make your point.

    What you describe as forgiveness... is actually restitution.
    You are right; I did not explain myself well at all and the point I was trying to make is lost. To answer your question though: no, I don't believe I need to add anything to the forgiveness that Jesus offers on the cross.

    Your question: "Do you believe that to attain forgiveness you need to not only repent but to pay restitution?" I was not talking about God's forgiveness; I was talking about humans forgiving other humans (and I think it makes a difference whose forgiveness we are talking about)....so, I guess my answer to that is yes--sometimes. But rather than "pay restitution," I am thinking more along the lines of "fixing the problem," which is why I say criminals should be imprisoned and in a different post I said they should get counselling or therapy or some such thing. Does that make any sense? Maybe not. I am not very good at explaining myself, but it makes sense in my head.

  8. #158
    Who is the stooge now? novice's Avatar
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    Theo neg repped me and stated....
    Yeah but Turbo lost his argument to Hebrews 8. We are no longer under the law. We are under the new commandment which is love.
    Theo, if we are under the commandment of "love" why are you neg repping me? Shouldn't you have forgiven me????

    Furthermore... what makes you think it is "loving" to throw God's criminal justice system out the window? How "loving" is it to throw people you have "forgiven" in a cage for the rest of their life?

    Theo, Primghar, I think it's time one of you responded to Romans 13

    Romans 13:2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is Godís minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is Godís minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

    Romans 13 completely obliterates your argument beyond any doubt. What is your response to it?
    Oh, wise guy eh?

  9. #159
    Who is the stooge now? novice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primghar
    You are right; I did not explain myself well at all and the point I was trying to make is lost. To answer your question though: no, I don't believe I need to add anything to the forgiveness that Jesus offers on the cross.

    Your question: "Do you believe that to attain forgiveness you need to not only repent but to pay restitution?" I was not talking about God's forgiveness; I was talking about humans forgiving other humans (and I think it makes a difference whose forgiveness we are talking about)....so, I guess my answer to that is yes--sometimes. But rather than "pay restitution," I am thinking more along the lines of "fixing the problem," which is why I say criminals should be imprisoned and in a different post I said they should get counselling or therapy or some such thing. Does that make any sense? Maybe not. I am not very good at explaining myself, but it makes sense in my head.
    In light of that wouldn't you agree that what you and Theo are arguing for is actually restitution and NOT forgiveness?

    By the way... thanks for admitting that.
    Oh, wise guy eh?

  10. #160
    Who is the stooge now? novice's Avatar
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    Hey Theo in your neg rep comment to me why would you admit that you lost the debate?
    Oh, wise guy eh?

  11. #161
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    I just want to note that I think anyone using the word "restitution" needs to be careful. Restitution is defined as: giving back something that was lost; restoration; reimbursement. Some of you (not all!) have been using it when referring to the death penalty and seemingly implying that the execution of someone is restitution. That is crazy because restitution is restoring the lost property! So the death penalty is not restitution to the victim's family unless the victim is resurrected when the murderer is executed.
    However, I have never really heard people use the word "restitution," so please correct me if I am wrong.

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    Journeyman theo_victis's Avatar
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    Theo, if we are under the commandment of "love" why are you neg repping me? Shouldn't you have forgiven me????
    Its funny that you say "if" we are under the commandment of love.

    I only negg repped you Novice because you are telling me that I undermine my own arguments. I disaproved of your comment. Isnt that what the little button is for?

    To quote a famous song, "What's love got to do with it?"

    Anyways, I dont want to make it a habit of interacting here yet since there is a lot to be said in the debate still.

    btw, I forgive your ignorance : )

    You cannot forgive someone else's debt. If my neighbor steals my friends lawnmower I have no right to forgive him of the debt he owes my friend.
    Knight, I am going to address this in my next round. You have a peculiar understanding of forgiveness. If what you are saying is true, then any time a family has its own member murdered in cold blood they do not reserve the right to feel angry about it because the offense is not against them?

    Forgiveness, in part = letting go of wrath/anger. being appeased, closure.


    I am trying not to make it a habit of responding here until after the debate is over. So.... I am out!

  13. #163
    Journeyman theo_victis's Avatar
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    Hey Theo in your neg rep comment to me why would you admit that you lost the debate?
    um... I didnt?!?! Even if you can somehow semantically twist my words, I am not admitting to losing. The debate isnt even over. You dont always have to act this way.

  14. #164
    Over 1000 post club JoyfulRook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primghar
    That is not true. If your 16-year-old son stole money from you, you would forgive him. But you would still make him give the money back and possibly take away his license for a week or make him clean the house or something, but you have still forgiven him for his wrong.

    I do not believe people should be given the death penalty; I believe they should be forgiven and punished--but not executed. I am not sure why that is so difficult to understand.
    What punishments are Governments authorized by God to use?
    "I maintain my pride in the face of men, but I abandon it before God, who drew me out of nothingness to make me what I am." - The Count of Monte Cristo

  15. #165
    Over 1000 post club JoyfulRook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primghar
    I just want to note that I think anyone using the word "restitution" needs to be careful. Restitution is defined as: giving back something that was lost; restoration; reimbursement. Some of you (not all!) have been using it when referring to the death penalty and seemingly implying that the execution of someone is restitution. That is crazy because restitution is restoring the lost property! So the death penalty is not restitution to the victim's family unless the victim is resurrected when the murderer is executed.
    However, I have never really heard people use the word "restitution," so please correct me if I am wrong.
    No one is saying that restitution is execution. Restitution is one of the punishments God authorized Governments to meat out on criminals for certain crimes (such as stealing). It is the practice of returning what was stolen x2 or another multiple.

    Another is flogging (for things such as drunkeness) and the last is execution (murder, rape, etc.).
    I think you got confused as to what I was saying.
    "I maintain my pride in the face of men, but I abandon it before God, who drew me out of nothingness to make me what I am." - The Count of Monte Cristo

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