User Tag List

Page 51 of 51 FirstFirst ... 4148495051
Results 751 to 759 of 759

Thread: Battle Talk ~ BR XI

  1. #751
    Journeyman Sharri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    CT
    Posts
    182
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2121
    bump

  2. #752
    Friendly Neighborhood Admin Turbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    5,316
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 13 Times in 13 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1036
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharri View Post
    Turbo,

    If Campbell admits killing these women, why is it so difficult for our government to make a decison on death penalty or life in prison?
    Because our criminal justice system is broken.

    Does our government have to go through all the steps in convicting someone that is admitting in murdering these women, why even get a jury, why not cut to the chase like God says?
    Good point!

    either way you look at it, there are many steps in convicting someone with the death penalty, if Campbell is convicted he will end up on death row for 16-20 yrs, like Ross did.
    Horrible, isn't it?



    Ecclesiastes 8:11 - Because the sentence against an evil deed is not executed quickly, therefore the hearts of the sons of men among them are given fully to do evil.

    Is this what God tells us what happens to those that commit captial crimes when execution is not done quickly?
    Yes! Without the threat of appropriate punishments carried out quickly, many more people are emboldened to commit crimes.


    It's like, people know that smoking cigarettes will likely kill you some day, but that isn't a very powerful deterrent; many people smoke despite the risk. If smoking a cigarette would almost surely kill you within a few hours or days, almost no one would ever smoke a cigarette.
    Last edited by Turbo; April 17th, 2007 at 03:40 PM.

  3. #753
    Friendly Neighborhood Admin Turbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    5,316
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 13 Times in 13 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1036
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharri View Post
    I agree death is just and equitable for murder, this also brings up other crimes or certain degrees of murder, manslaughter, what is equitable and just for those crimes, should they be considered to be life or death?
    Consider these passages:

    “He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death. However, if he did not lie in wait, but God delivered him into his hand, then I will appoint for you a place where he may flee.
    “But if a man acts with premeditation against his neighbor, to kill him by treachery, you shall take him from My altar, that he may die. Exodus 21:12-14


    “If an ox gores a man or a woman to death, then the ox shall surely be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be acquitted. But if the ox tended to thrust with its horn in times past, and it has been made known to his owner, and he has not kept it confined, so that it has killed a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned and its owner also shall be put to death. Exodus 21:28-29
    There are other passages like these and we can discuss them too if you want. The principle is this: If a someone injures or kills another man by accident and through no fault of his own, he is not guilty.

    However, if a someone injures or kills another person through gross negligence, then he is guilty as though it were intentional.

    If a kid darts out between parked cars after a ball and is killing by a passing car, the driver is not guilty. But if the driver is drunk and blows through a stop sign, killing a pedestrian crossing the street, then the driver is as guilty and should be executed.

    If a dog attacks and kills someone but had never shown signs of aggression before, the dog should be put down but the owner is not guilty. But if the dog had a history of aggression but the owner did not have the dog killed, then the owner is responsible for the dog's actions and should also be put to death.

    Make sense?




    Our governing authorities determine the outcome for these crimes; do they always determine it is just; are they Christians?
    Generally, no. And even the ones that are Christians tend to be more beholden to following the process that to God's enduring commandments.

    Perhaps Christians should take a stronger stance, or maybe the Christian Church needs to be more active in Social Justice!
    Yes, and Christians should find out what God thinks about these matters. Too many don't bother.


    Why can’t the government cut some of the in betweens and make it more swiftly?
    Our government is primarily made up of committees of lawyers who love to complicate everything and multiply laws. I suppose that ensures their job security.

    But you make a good point. There is no reason that it should take 20 years to carry out a death sentence. Those who argue against the death penalty on the basis of it being more costly to execute a criminal than to imprison him for life never want to consider that (because they aren't really motivated by a desire to minimize costs).



    Yes they should punish criminals, isn’t this part of God handing down authority to the government to [prosecute] those that break laws, and committing crimes.
    Yes.
    When God removed Cain from the land that was an example of His showing us as that those with evil hearts and those that commit murder should be removed from society?
    In a sense, but it also shows that allowing murderers to live emboldens people to commit murder. After ~1600 years of letting people be guided only by their consciences and not punishing criminals, mankind became so wicked that God decided to bring about the Flood and start anew with Noah and his family. And when they got off the ark, God commanded them (mankind) to put murderers to death from that point forward.


    What about Pilate, when Jesus was sentenced to be crucified he was under Roman law, Pilate believed who Jesus was, what exactly was Jesus crime for being crucified, was it the power of the people that overcame Pilate in his decision?
    Yes. Pilate recognized that Jesus was innocent, but he deferred to the democratic decision of the mob that demanded His death.

    Does that make Pilate a murderer, or was he a ruler of his land obeying the laws?
    When a governing official knowingly sentences an innocent person to death, that is murder.

    Does it make him just with God?
    No, Jesus even told Pilate he was sinning:

    "Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"

    Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin." John 20:10-11

  4. #754
    Friendly Neighborhood Admin Turbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    5,316
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 13 Times in 13 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1036
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharri View Post
    I agree in doing things God's way. Referring to "Just" You mention the criminal on the cross that asked Jesus to remember him when He is in His Kingdom. The criminal was he just in his knowing for what he did and accepts the punishment,
    No, accepting his punishment isn't why he was saved, but his humble and repentant heart allowed him to recognize that he and the other criminal were receiving their just punishment, while Christ was innocent.

  5. #755
    Journeyman Sharri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    CT
    Posts
    182
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2121
    Quote Originally Posted by Turbo View Post
    Because our criminal justice system is broken.

    Good point!

    Horrible, isn't it?
    Yeah it is. I don’t’ know much more on this case except they are waiting on the judge. (not to much info is given on this case??)


    Yes! Without the threat of appropriate punishments carried out quickly, many more people are emboldened to commit crimes.


    It's like, people know that smoking cigarettes will likely kill you some day, but that isn't a very powerful deterrent; many people smoke despite the risk. If smoking a cigarette would almost surely kill you within a few hours or days, almost no one would ever smoke a cigarette.
    That’s true, just like those that say the death penalty isn't a powerful deterrent, it's about forgiveness (more on forgiveness later).
    My question is, is putting someone to death our responsibility (as Christians) for their salvation? God gave us our own free will to chose to follow Him or go on our own path.
    So why is it so different when a serial killer or murder is on trial we need to forgive them, what about the alcoholic neighbor we see in the bar all the time or the married couple that is having marital problems, are we not responsible for their salavation like the criminals that commit capital crimes? Where is the powerful deterrent in not supporting the death penatly?



    What gets me is in the case with Ross, he wrote in one of his letters how after he is executed how he hopes his actions on death row might help those with their grieving and heal the wounds he created. He also mentioned how if this does happen it will “justify” his actions and make the last years worth while.

    Him trying to make restitution with the ones that grieve, what about being justly in his actions on what he did to the women he killed? Why not make restitution with God, where is He in all of this? I don’t get it. After Ross being treated for mental illness he now knows he is wrong on what he did and hopes to help heal those that grieve… ???? I just don’t get it.

    Is being “just” with God the same has having “restitution” with God? What does God say about Restitution?

    Exodus 22:6 (kjv)
    6. If fire break out, and catch in thorns, so that the stacks of corn, or the standing corn, or the field, be consumed therewith; he that kindled the fire shall surely make restitution.

    Exodus 22:12 (kjv)
    12. And if it be stolen from him, he shall make restitution unto the owner thereof.

    Act 3:21 (kjv)
    Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.


    Maybe it’s more like paying off a debt to those you’ve hurt or taken from.
    Last edited by Turbo; May 15th, 2007 at 08:13 PM.

  6. #756
    Journeyman Sharri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    CT
    Posts
    182
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2121
    Quote Originally Posted by Turbo View Post
    Yes. Pilate recognized that Jesus was innocent, but he deferred to the democratic decision of the mob that demanded His death.

    When a governing official knowingly sentences an innocent person to death, that is murder.

    No, Jesus even told Pilate he was sinning:

    "Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"

    Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin." John 20:10-11

    Pilates decision in crucifying Jesus was more on the role of the people of Rome or for Rome's sake, he questions the crowd on what to do with Jesus. He was taking a poll on whom the crowd was more in favor for Jesus or himself.

    Was Pilate governing Rome like he was suppose to? Does this make Pilate a murderer for crucifying a wannabe king in Rome (even though Pilate knew whom he was)? He didn't have to crucify Jesus, was Pilate fufilling God's plan on His son's crucifiction? Is Pilate in eternal hell for crucifying Jesus, did God forgive Pilate for doing his duty in governing and administering to Rome and the people?
    Last edited by Turbo; May 15th, 2007 at 08:15 PM.

  7. #757
    TOL Legend drbrumley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    9,939
    Thanks
    601
    Thanked 3,304 Times in 2,096 Posts

    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    619468
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharri View Post
    Pilates decision in crucifying Jesus was more on the role of the people of Rome or for Rome's sake, he questions the crowd on what to do with Jesus. He was taking a poll on whom the crowd was more in favor for Jesus or himself.
    Huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharri View Post
    Was Pilate governing Rome like he was suppose to?
    No being Pilate did not govern Rome

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharri View Post
    Does this make Pilate a murderer for crucifying a wannabe king in Rome (even though Pilate knew whom he was)?
    You mean wannabe King of Isreal? You betcha!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharri View Post
    He didn't have to crucify Jesus, was Pilate fufilling God's plan on His son's crucifiction?
    Could Pilate have said no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharri View Post
    Is Pilate in eternal hell for crucifying Jesus
    Yes

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharri View Post
    did God forgive Pilate for doing his duty in governing and administering to Rome and the people?
    Did he ask for forgiveness?
    The state — whatever its particular forms — always expresses itself as a collective form of property ownership. All political systems are socialistic, in that they are premised upon the subservience of individual interests to collective authority. Communism, fascism, lesser forms of state socialism, and welfarism, are all premised upon the state’s usurpation of privately-owned property. Whether one chooses to be aligned with the political "Left," "Right," or "Middle," comes down to nothing more than a preference for a particular franchise of state socialism.

  8. #758
    Journeyman Sharri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    CT
    Posts
    182
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2121
    Was Pilate fufilling God's plan in His son's crucificition? If so, does this makes him a muderer for fufilling God's plan? Is Pilate in eternal hell for ordering Jesus to be crucified?

    What about the Jews, are they not guilty of wanting Jesus to be crucified? What about the Romans for crucifying Jesus? Are they considered murderers? Are they in eternal hell for fufillig God's plan?

  9. #759
    TOL Legend drbrumley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    9,939
    Thanks
    601
    Thanked 3,304 Times in 2,096 Posts

    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    619468
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharri View Post
    Was Pilate fufilling God's plan in His son's crucificition?
    Define God's Plan. Did God make Pilate do that deed? Of course not! I have asked you if Pilate had a choice? I didn't see an answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharri View Post
    If so, does this makes him a murderer for fulfilling God's plan?
    If God orchestrated the whole event, then we have no business convicting Pilate of murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharri View Post
    Is Pilate in eternal hell for ordering Jesus to be crucified?
    If God orchestrated the whole event, then we have no business convicting Pilate of murder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharri View Post
    What about the Jews, are they not guilty of wanting Jesus to be crucified?
    Well, thank God he left us His word on what their punishment was. He set them aside.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharri View Post
    What about the Romans for crucifying Jesus?
    Did all Romans murder Jesus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharri View Post
    Are they considered murderers?
    Did all Romans murder Jesus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharri View Post
    Are they in eternal hell for fulfilling God's plan?
    What do you think? Seriously!
    The state — whatever its particular forms — always expresses itself as a collective form of property ownership. All political systems are socialistic, in that they are premised upon the subservience of individual interests to collective authority. Communism, fascism, lesser forms of state socialism, and welfarism, are all premised upon the state’s usurpation of privately-owned property. Whether one chooses to be aligned with the political "Left," "Right," or "Middle," comes down to nothing more than a preference for a particular franchise of state socialism.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us