Science for a pre-sin world

G

Greg Jennings

New member
Many of the creationists here at TOL adamantly voice their opinions that science is in clear unity with the scriptures. That would include scientific support for a world before the advent of sin. My question is simple: if creationism is truly what the scientific evidence points to, where and what is the evidence for a pre-sin, pre-death world where every creature got along, ate plants, and never died?


Side question: if nothing ever died, were new baby animals still born? Did the population keep increasing indefinitely? And if so, how about some science for that, too?
 
TracerBullet

TracerBullet

New member
Greg Jennings said:
Many of the creationists here at TOL adamantly voice their opinions that science is in clear unity with the scriptures. That would include scientific support for a world before the advent of sin. My question is simple: if creationism is truly what the scientific evidence points to, where and what is the evidence for a pre-sin, pre-death world where every creature got along, ate plants, and never died?


Side question: if nothing ever died, were new baby animals still born? Did the population keep increasing indefinitely? And if so, how about some science for that, too?
Click to expand...

I hope you aren't holding your breath waiting for a creationist to actually answer your question
 
R

RBBI

New member
chrysostom said:
can you think of a reasonable explanation that would include everyone?
Click to expand...

I can. We were lowered into this bondage of vanity (a type of death)not willingly. We are here to learn to be willing to lay down our life for Him. No greater love hath any man than he lay down his life for his friends. Peace
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
I doubt if there would have been enough time for the function of the innocent world to operate to leave much of a physical indication. The question is interlocked with the amount of time between Satan's rebellion with other angels and the creation of man.

The oldest Biblical reference to Satan in Job is that he was roaming back and forth through the earth, which is a verb having to do with predation. (Not trouble with his mobile phone, lol). Ie, I don't see where he has ever let up. We are not told of any other significant events between the creation of the first human couple and their temptation and failure.

That would make the amount of time in question (creation to failure) very short, it seems.

Even if you answer that there was the Bible's own longest allowed amount of time (a day is like a thousand years, Ps 90:4), in which the days of creation were a thousand years, you have perhaps a few thousand in which there indications (the date of Lake Morse in Olympic National Park, the amount of time Niagara has been undercutting). Some day 3 species would have existed on those "days" following (up to 4000 years before the sin of mankind; about 6000 before the deluge) and there are fossils of giant creatures (because of a warm, oxygen-rich climate until the deluge) which are now diminished.
 
Jamie Gigliotti

Jamie Gigliotti

New member
Greg Jennings said:
Many of the creationists here at TOL adamantly voice their opinions that science is in clear unity with the scriptures. That would include scientific support for a world before the advent of sin. My question is simple: if creationism is truly what the scientific evidence points to, where and what is the evidence for a pre-sin, pre-death world where every creature got along, ate plants, and never died?


Side question: if nothing ever died, were new baby animals still born? Did the population keep increasing indefinitely? And if so, how about some science for that, too?
Click to expand...

The answer would be based on the power of God. There is nothing an omni-potent God can not do. The world before the fall had no death. The world was changed at the sound of His voice to incorporate death. This became the natural world we live in, before then it was supernatural, And beyond our ability to detect.

Think of the immense power in every atom. How much power it takes to create everything. What we create we can manipulate, why wouldn't God be able to as well?
 
Jamie Gigliotti

Jamie Gigliotti

New member
Interplanner said:
I doubt if there would have been enough time for the function of the innocent world to operate to leave much of a physical indication. The question is interlocked with the amount of time between Satan's rebellion with other angels and the creation of man.

The oldest Biblical reference to Satan in Job is that he was roaming back and forth through the earth, which is a verb having to do with predation. (Not trouble with his mobile phone, lol). Ie, I don't see where he has ever let up. We are not told of any other significant events between the creation of the first human couple and their temptation and failure.

That would make the amount of time in question (creation to failure) very short, it seems.

Even if you answer that there was the Bible's own longest allowed amount of time (a day is like a thousand years, Ps 90:4), in which the days of creation were a thousand years, you have perhaps a few thousand in which there indications (the date of Lake Morse in Olympic National Park, the amount of time Niagara has been undercutting). Some day 3 species would have existed on those "days" following (up to 4000 years before the sin of mankind; about 6000 before the deluge) and there are fossils of giant creatures (because of a warm, oxygen-rich climate until the deluge) which are now diminished.
Click to expand...

I do think it was very brief. Which makes Greg's question about animals moot as far as I'm concerned.
 
6days

6days

New member
Interplanner said:
I doubt if there would have been enough time for the function of the innocent world to operate to leave much of a physical indication.
Click to expand...
Of course.*

Interplanner said:
The question is interlocked with the amount of time between Satan's rebellion with other angels and the creation of man.
Click to expand...
That amount of time appears to be about 144 hours since 'in six days God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them'.*
 
I

Interplanner

Well-known member
6days said:
Of course.*


That amount of time appears to be about 144 hours since 'in six days God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them'.*
Click to expand...



Of course on certain things, but we don't know that every expression is about every topic. For ex., you can read in the prophets that a certain city will never exist again. That's true for a very long period, but then you find it back again.

That's why you don't proof-text the age of the earth with Ex. 20, because the topic of the passage is the law and the credentials of the Lawgiver. It is nowhere close to Gen 1 or Ps 104 as far as a complete statement. Other passages are needed to understand 'formless and void'.

The lengths of times of various stages are not answered by lines that are summary statements, which Moses used all through Genesis. cp 4:3. It is a range, not an exact moment.

The question at hand is not the length of formless and void but of the created/formed earth after being made (roughly) what it is today. The length of the stage of formless and void has no bearing on evidence of life because there wasn't any. But that does not mean it was a mere moment.
 
6days

6days

New member
Interplanner said:
Of course on certain things, but we don't know that every expression is about every topic. For ex., you can read in the prophets that a certain city will never exist again. That's true for a very long period, but then you find it back again.
That's why you don't proof-text the age of the earth with Ex. 20, because the topic of the passage is the law and the credentials of the Lawgiver. It is nowhere close to Gen 1 or Ps 104 as far as a complete statement. Other passages are needed to understand 'formless and void'.
Click to expand...
That type of compromise is why young people are rejecting the gospel. They start applying that reasoning to all scripture. An extreme example is one fellow who wrote that people don't need to believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus, because the story is only meant to convey some truths (Such as being happy in adverse situations)

Interplanner said:
The lengths of times of various stages are not answered by lines that are summary statements, which Moses used all through Genesis. cp 4:3. It is a range, not an exact moment.
Click to expand...
Context provides the meaning. The Hebrew is clear

Interplanner said:
The question at hand is not the length of formless and void
Click to expand...
The earth was formless for the first day...it was all water. The earth was void of life but God finished creating and filling on the 6th day
 
Last edited:
GuySmiley

GuySmiley

Well-known member
Greg Jennings said:
Many of the creationists here at TOL adamantly voice their opinions that science is in clear unity with the scriptures. That would include scientific support for a world before the advent of sin. My question is simple: if creationism is truly what the scientific evidence points to, where and what is the evidence for a pre-sin, pre-death world where every creature got along, ate plants, and never died?
Click to expand...
This is like fish turning into people in some ways. We can't ever observe it, so no, there's no scientific evidence for it. But unlike fish turning into people, we do have historical evidence for it.

Side question: if nothing ever died, were new baby animals still born? Did the population keep increasing indefinitely? And if so, how about some science for that, too?
Click to expand...
Don't know.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top