The Ever Present Problem of Atheism (HOF thread)

whisper · Jul 14, 2003

Originally posted by Curtsibling
If you live in a proper way with charity and righteousness,
you will feel it's glow and flame in your heart and know your are in this light.

Is this your idea of living proper and righteous? The following quote is from the www.churchofsatan discussion board:

"curtsibling
Registered User
Posts: 5
(10/28/02 4:57 pm)
Reply I dedicate this poem to "atheifinthenight"
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To atheifinthenight; Happy returns, christian!

Holy Target
By RAISE HELL

Shotgun blast from my pipe is ripping the war-filled air
With tanks by my side we grind their empty skulls
In my target I can see tears from their eyes
Let the bullets caress the holy race

I spit on the cross...holy holocaust
I piss on your priest...Jesus is the holy target

Taking their lives, Jesus will die
As I'm pulling the trigger

Missiles toward the house of god, the house which soon is gone
The cross above is crushed and your god he wept
No time for blessings, run for your lives
And we will hunt you down

To the cross you are stuck!

My sight was landscapes filled with crossed holy ones...fire!

I spit on the cross...holy holocaust
I piss on your priest...Jesus is the holy target

Taking their lives, Jesus will die
As I'm pulling the trigger

Hope this gets my point across... "

Are you a satan worshiper? May God have mercy on your soul.

Curtsibling · Jul 14, 2003

That was a quoted song by a rock band...Not my opinion!

Nope, whisper, I am not into satan stuff.

I just posted that song to get a shock reaction, no big deal.

Curtsibling · Jul 14, 2003

Please note that the Rock Band 'Raise Hell' are silly jokers who write such songs to take advantage of the shock value of the current music scene.

I have a sense of humour, and would just as likely post this to annoy the satanists:

I will post it now: Time- Helloween:

Time - Helloween

Feel it running off
So strong and clear
An age is over fast
And dissapears
Help him if you can
His hour will come soon
Push away his fear
He'll see Elysium
It's time
It's time

Guard him a little while
And calm his shiver
Wash and dry his tears
And cool his fever
Take the bibles words
Speak it pure his soul
Lay love in his mind
His close to the final goal
It's time
It's time

It's time to go
Time for the freedom
Time to face what we all believe in
Pray strong
Pray to the higher
Turn your back on the devil's fire
Time to go
Time for the freedom
Time to face what we all believe in
Time is passing by

When his mind was clear
He called you brother
Now his brain is dazed
It's resigning rather
Mother take his hand
Say a last Good-Bye
We're not gifted to
Turn water into wine
It's time
It's time

It's time to go
Time for the freedom
Time to face what we all believe in
Pray strong
Pray to the higher
Turn your back on the devil's fire
Time to go
Time for the freedom
Time to face what we all believe in
Time is passing by

Now would that make the satan posters annoyed?

Whisper, I am no man's foe, I just like to get a funny reaction sometimes...

whisper · Jul 14, 2003

What about this post?

curtsibling
Registered User
Posts: 2
(10/28/02 4:30 pm)
Reply Re: d
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In my opinion;
The only cross I recognise is the one made of Iron. And only because it corrupts the templar's cross...

Christians usually are too ill-educated and ignorant to even know the relevance of the symbols thier sick religion has stolen...

Curtsibling · Jul 14, 2003

OK, I admit I was a jackass.
Just to get I reaction I posted a outrageous song by a silly Swede rock band...and some stupid spam.

It was an experiment, I suppose I should have been more careful with people's feelings...

We all make stupid mistakes, and that was one of mine...

You wont see that kind of dumb 'humour' from me here...

whisper · Jul 14, 2003

We all make mistakes....so what DO you believe these days? Are you an atheist, agnostic, Christian, other?

Curtsibling · Jul 14, 2003

@Whisper:
You could say I am kind of a good-living neutral, with a habit for asking questions.
I have no problem with people who are with J Christ, and that goes for mostly all the religions.

I got bored with the war-games forums, and the endless politics.
These days I am looking for engaging posters, and there are many here in TOL.

I'm pretty glad I found this place.
Best posting experience I have had in a while!

LightSon · Jul 14, 2003

Curtsibling,
Thanks for "gaming" with me.

Originally posted by Curtsibling
Trying to form a stereotype?

I'll play your game, maybe!

It isn't that I'm trying to typecast you. I am simply trying to understand you and yes, to build a view in my head that represents you properly. I can't know you appart from what you tell me. Can I?

I am not without the tendency to gaming. As you have indicated you sometimes drop incendiary quotes :

I just posted that song to get a shock reaction, no big deal.

Okay, that's fine. But don't be surprised when folks draw inferences from that. Their conclusions may not be valid, but you should accept a measure of responsibility - which you seem to have done, thankfully.

I asked you about "your light"

This light is in your heart, if you really have it.

I am not going to make it easy and tell you, friend.

If you live in a proper way with charity and righteousness,
you will feel it's glow and flame in your heart and know your are in this light.

Thanks for sharing.

LS asked: Would you care to defend, clarify or recant your statement?
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Z Man claims to be part of a belief that expounds reason, humilty and charity, and tolerance.

He has shown little evidence of any of them, surely you can see this?

I can see why you are in contention with the Zman yes. Forgive me if I don't jump in a take sides just now.

Are you another christian who has invented his own set of values, opoosite from what Jesus recommended?

I sincerely hope not. In the end, you and others will have to form your own opinion about that. It'll do no good for me to pat myself on the back in the solitude of my own mind.

Originally posted by LightSon That reminds me of a poem [Invictus], which rather chills my soul.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are easily chilled!

Well yes there are some things that chill my soul; ignoring God is one of them.
Some view life as a game. I would admit there are gaming and testing aspects to life. Yet, my scriptures indicate there are things that should cause us to take pause and weigh our choices, and that some choices will put us in harms way, even eternal harm.

Mark 8:36

For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

That concept makes me stop and think.

Being a free man is not sad!

If you are scared to make your own waves in life, that is the most mournful thing.

A man terrified by a fate he refuses to control!

Think on this...

Being free is great. Being free to cause harm is not. How free was Hitler? How free was Ted Bundy?

Captains of their fate, yes?

I'm in no way pointing my finger at you; I don't know you well enough. I'm just trying to show that there are more important things than being free to do whatever ill comes to mind.

I have no problem with "seizing the day". But there is a proper way to do it, boundaries which must be observed.

John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Curtsibling · Jul 14, 2003

@LightSon,

I hope my posts on TOL are more indicative of my real nature than crazy spam on that another forum...

I am not a bad guy, I merely look a bit deeper into things...I'm nosey.

I can shake your hand and bow, because we can be reasonable and agree on many points!

Z Man, is a reasonable man too, I can feel it.
I think he will soon come around and realise we are really not at odds at all!

It is good to debate, as long as we remember there is no reason to get wound up.

And you speak true, we must all make sure we know the boundaries in life...

Thanks, LightSon!

With regards,
Curt

taxpayerslavery · Jul 14, 2003

Curtsibling

I didn't see anything hostile in what Z man posted. He was telling the truth about Jesus and hell though. I expect you were getting convicted in your spirit and this made his comments seem hostile when they were not. I always find this to be an interesting phenomena to watch.

The following post was so rich, I couldn't resist.

by Curtsibling
Didn't humans invent the christian god, like all the other gods?

I don't see the difference, save for a lot of people in favour of one version of a religion or another.

That does not amount to evidence in my view.

In all my online and real-world travels, I have never had anybody of any belief system give me any real evidence of their chosen deity.

And I have spoken to countless people of many beliefs.
They all seem to be clinging to their ideals, in the face of harsh reality.

But that is what faith is all about, eh?

Let's start with

Didn't humans invent the christian god, like all the other gods?

No, the Christian God revealed himself to Adam when he created him, and he kept revealing himself to us through prophets/prophecy. Ultimately the word of God, the Holy Bible, was complied by inspiration of God just as God wanted it to be.

I don't see the difference, save for a lot of people in favour of one version of a religion or another.

If I were to taste a wine that cost $6 a bottle and another wine that cost $200 a bottle, I wouldn't know which was which. I wouldn't be able to appreciate the difference because I am ignorant about wine. I wouldn't see a difference between the two.

Thanks for the heads up as to your knowledge about religions.

In all my online and real-world travels, I have never had anybody of any belief system give me any real evidence of their chosen deity.

This is because most deities are don't exist, except for the God of the Bible, and the Bible tells us that he requires faith thereby making evidence scarce on purpose.

And I have spoken to countless people of many beliefs.
They all seem to be clinging to their ideals, in the face of harsh reality.

This is the statement that intrigued me the most. What is this harsh reality which should cause need for me to cling to a presumably false ideal?

Erik

Z Man · Jul 14, 2003

Grow up Curt...

Grow up Curt...

Originally posted by Curtsibling
Goodness!
Z Man if you are going to keep this up, please, not so many typos!
I don't want to have to start correcting you...

Badly spelt posts have little impact on me!

Ummmm......you don't have a lot of room to talk:

You need saved sure enough.
(Your grammer sucks...)

You choose not to listen, and have eletced the hard way.
(eletced? Time to look into getting some Hooked-on-Phonics...)

You need saved sure enough.
Who makes you the judge of other people?

But you just judged me in saying that I need to be saved (in bad grammer, I might add)!!! Stop with the fake "I'm-a-good-model-citizen-making-a-fool-out-of-Christians" act because you suck at it. You're only making yourself look even more foolish...

Z Man, I am going to tell you something;

(And wipe the glaze from your eyes and READ THIS!)

I claim victory in this tete-a-tete!
You have continually produced inconsistent threats, claims and oaths like a man possessed.

You seem to miss the point that I am a person who is not at odds with your belief.
Still, you have went into some bizarre attempt to write me off as a heretic, then go into some heavy-handed attempt at evangelism!

What is with you, Z Man!?!

Covering your ears and screaming at me is not going to make me go away.

I stand here still, smiling unmoved one millimetre from my stance, while you have exhausted all ordnance in this doomed attempt to do what?

Educate me? Demoralise me? Convert me?

Don't make me laugh...

I have all those factors under check.

Seems I have more christian values than you, Z Man, you have acted in a very uncharitable way in your posts, with insults pride, anger and scorn.

I didn't provoke you, but it is obvious you have a giant chip on your shoulder about something.
I urge you to go and fix your life's problems, don't let them manifest as bad emotions on the forum.

I continually offer you a hand of peace, and you strike back with your frenzied words...
Well, you are a strange case, but I will not write you off just yet.

I am really here to experience different people, not to battle with them.

I tell you I am not your enemy, but like a child in a tantrum you continue to stamp your feet and cry...

I expect better!

I see this 'debate' as a fruitless effort, you have your own life to worry about, and you have no power to make me change me course.

Curt,
Grow up. You're a big cry baby who runs and hides behind his "good-life" and intellect when confronted about how you need salvation. Then you turn around and say we are judgemental and angry and such forth, when you're the one who says that I'm not a true Christian! How hypocritical!

I take no offense to your ramblings about how you think I'm angry, and judgemental. I only offer you love and peace through Jesus Christ. You reject it. And one day, you will pay the consequences, no matter how good you try to live your life...

My course is the best for me, you don't actually know who or what I am, do you?

Yeah, you're lost and you need salvation. Call on Jesus now and He will be merciful and save you. If only you'll believe!

You are quick to judge me, and that is the folly that makes me laugh!

No one is judging you Curt. I simply said that you need salvation, just like everyone else. Do you not think you do? Do you beleive you live a perfect life? Do you believe you are better than other people? Of course you don't. You're not that prideful. Or are you?

Z Man your attempts to attack me all come to naught...
Give it up, don't let this thread be your Stalingrad.

Curt,
Your attempts to justify your sins will all come to naught in the end. Give it up. Don't let your pride lead you to your Stalingrad.

Best Wishes,
Z Man

Z Man · Jul 14, 2003

Originally posted by shima
And there is no other factor involved? No "is he a good person"? No "how does he relate to others?" No "how social is he?".

So, if you awnser "no" to all those questions, then who God chooses would seem to us to be random since we cannot know Gods will. So, if you end up in heaven or hell is completely random to us.

Now, if that is true, then there is no sense of justice in heaven or hell. People are not rewarded or punished because of something they did, but because God likes[]/b] it that way.

How do you figure? God is Justice. People sin; all of us. No one is perfect. We all rebel against God. Therefore, His Justice is carried out when those whom He has not saved go to hell.

Well, how can He justify those whom He saves? He took care of that some 2,000 years ago by paying for our sins already! Now, those whom He has saved are justified by His Son's atonement work on the cross! How much more justice do you want?

Oh, how great and merciful God's saving grace truely is! How His Justice is perfect in every way! To Him be the Glory forever and ever!

taxpayerslavery · Jul 14, 2003

shima

by shima
And there is no other factor involved? No "is he a good person"? No "how does he relate to others?" No "how social is he?".

So, if you awnser "no" to all those questions, then who God chooses would seem to us to be random since we cannot know Gods will. So, if you end up in heaven or hell is completely random to us.

Now, if that is true, then there is no sense of justice in heaven or hell. People are not rewarded or punished because of something they did, but because God likes it that way.

Nice deity you have there. I'll stick to the deity I have now (ie none).

You make valid conclusions if we are saved solely by God's will and our free will has nothing to do with it. As close as I can tell, our free will has everything to do with whether or not we go to hell.

God's will is for everybody to make it to heaven. Since scripture tells us that people will go to hell, God must have given up some of his will in order to allow us to have ours.

2 Peter 3
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Jesus let us know that those who have eyes to see and ears to hear would understand what he was saying and be saved. He also said that those who don't have eyes to see have closed their own eyes when the disciples asked why Jesus spoke in parables, and Jesus told us that heaven wasn't going to be handed to every body on a silver platter.

Matthew 13
"15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."

The key to being elected for salvation is whether or not we seek after God. By seeking God we already demonstrate faith and God will reward us by strengthening our faith.

Matthew 7
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Anybody can be saved as per Jesus as he appeared to the disciples just before ascending into heaven..

Mark 16
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

This is why they call it saving faith.

So salvation is in each of our own hands. This is why hell will be a just punishment, it will be for those who did not care enough about God to seek after Him.

Curtsibling · Jul 15, 2003

Originally posted by taxpayerslavery
Curtsibling

I didn't see anything hostile in what Z man posted. He was telling the truth about Jesus and hell though. I expect you were getting convicted in your spirit and this made his comments seem hostile when they were not. I always find this to be an interesting phenomena to watch.

You see, I never said Z Man had no right to his faith.
That is where the stumbling block began though,
I think Z Man thought I was attacking his right to believe.

Not so.

It is his right as a free man to believe whatever he wants!
I would never be so arrogant as to deny him this right.
It is my right to ask some questions though, is it not?

I have met enough people to know we all need some ideal to focus on.
And I am not any different!

Originally posted by taxpayerslavery
No, the Christian God revealed himself to Adam when he created him, and he kept revealing himself to us through prophets/prophecy. Ultimately the word of God, the Holy Bible, was complied by inspiration of God just as God wanted it to be.

That is your right to hold to this idea.
To me the eden story is a mythical moral guide, but it is a good tale about human nature, I concede.
The bible was created by men, with the idea of god as their inspiration...

That I agree on, to deny it would be incorrect...

Originally posted by taxpayerslavery
If I were to taste a wine that cost $6 a bottle and another wine that cost $200 a bottle, I wouldn't know which was which. I wouldn't be able to appreciate the difference because I am ignorant about wine. I wouldn't see a difference between the two.

Strange allegory.
But that is your opinion, who is really right on this one?

Can you judge millions of people?

Originally posted by taxpayerslavery
This is because most deities are don't exist, except for the God of the Bible, and the Bible tells us that he requires faith thereby making evidence scarce on purpose.

Again your call.

Can you tell the other religions of the world they are all inferior?
How do you react to the fact that they may see you in this same light?

Originally posted by taxpayerslavery
This is the statement that intrigued me the most. What is this harsh reality which should cause need for me to cling to a presumably false ideal?
Erik

The reality of life and it's day-to-day drudgery.

Cheers, Erik.

Curt

shima · Jul 15, 2003

Z Man: Therefore, His Justice is carried out when those whom He has not saved go to hell.

So why should he save only some of us? He saves one person yet doesn't save another. That is not justice. That is randomness.

Oh, how great and merciful God's saving grace truely is! How His Justice is perfect in every way! To Him be the Glory forever and ever!

www.dictionary.com Justice:

The quality of being just; fairness.
The principle of moral rightness; equity.
Conformity to moral rightness in action or attitude; righteousness.

Now, justice would be: saving those people who deserve to be saved. Unfortunately, you yourself have stated that who he saves is purely up to him and has nothing to do with the properties of that person. Whether or not he's been a good man, social, charitable, friendly, lovable, etc has nothing to do with it. Since God doesn't look at these things, there is no fairness and thus no justice to Gods actions. Therefore, God is not just.

You have a warped sense of justice my friend.

shima · Jul 15, 2003

tax: You make valid conclusions if we are saved solely by God's will and our free will has nothing to do with it. As close as I can tell, our free will has everything to do with whether or not we go to hell.

That is just it. Z Man believes that our free will has nothing to do with that, which ofcourse leads to the conclusion that God is not just if the person cannot influence Gods decision to either save him or not. God wouldn't be justice, but rather randomness.

Curtsibling · Jul 15, 2003

Re: Grow up Curt...

Re: Grow up Curt...

Originally posted by Z Man
Ummmm......you don't have a lot of room to talk:

Ha ha!

Whatever, Z Man.
I think you'll find my spelling is impeccable.

Originally posted by Z Man But you just judged me in saying that I need to be saved (in bad grammer, I might add)!!! Stop with the fake "I'm-a-good-model-citizen-making-a-fool-out-of-Christians" act because you suck at it. You're only making yourself look even more foolish...

Foolish?
In your eyes, perhaps.
You are the one keeping this pointless discussion going!

I am merely having a laugh, you are having a stroke. (almost)

Who is the fool?

You know, Z Man.
I think we have lost sight of what our exchange is about!
What is it you really want to tell me, dude?

Originally posted by Z Man
Curt,
Grow up. You're a big cry baby who runs and hides behind his "good-life" and intellect when confronted about how you need salvation. Then you turn around and say we are judgemental and angry and such forth, when you're the one who says that I'm not a true Christian! How hypocritical!

I am not going to apologise for my intellect.

If you can't keep up, then give up!

Originally posted by Z Man
I take no offense to your ramblings about how you think I'm angry, and judgemental. I only offer you love and peace through Jesus Christ. You reject it. And one day, you will pay the consequences, no matter how good you try to live your life...

I think not!

You are the one who is mired in his self-made prison.

The cell door is easily opened...

Originally posted by Z Man
Yeah, you're lost and you need salvation. Call on Jesus now and He will be merciful and save you. If only you'll believe!

Sure thing, brother!

So I can't be a righteous man unless I submit to your version of following Jesus...?

Z Man, you have lost it!

Jesus is there for me to recognise as an individual! I don't need your recruitment office, chum!

Do you even understand the faith you claim to follow!?!

What a character! :nono:

Originally posted by Z Man
No one is judging you Curt. I simply said that you need salvation, just like everyone else. Do you not think you do? Do you beleive you live a perfect life? Do you believe you are better than other people? Of course you don't. You're not that prideful. Or are you?

It's not pride, champ.

It's the truth, I mind my own business, I do volunteer work. I harm no-one...

So are you going to call me a bad guy?

Are you going to make a claim?

Originally posted by Z Man
Curt,
Your attempts to justify your sins will all come to naught in the end. Give it up. Don't let your pride lead you to your Stalingrad.

Hey! Come up with your own analogies!

Originally posted by Z Man
Best Wishes,
Z Man

At last, a goodbye compliment!

Well thanks, big guy!
Yours, in friendship,
Curt!

LightSon · Jul 15, 2003

Shima,

Originally posted by shima
So why should he save only some of us? He saves one person yet doesn't save another. That is not justice. That is randomness.

God is just; that is one of His fundamental attributes. Just because He acts in ways that appear random to you does not impugn God's justice. In fact, what appears random to you is simply God acting sovereignly - doing as He sees fit. This is His universe; He created it. Should not one have the right to deal with His property as He sees fit?

Originally posted by shima
Now, justice would be: saving those people who deserve to be saved. Unfortunately, you yourself have stated that who he saves is purely up to him and has nothing to do with the properties of that person. Whether or not he's been a good man, social, charitable, friendly, lovable, etc has nothing to do with it. Since God doesn't look at these things, there is no fairness and thus no justice to Gods actions. Therefore, God is not just.

It is convenient when you can superimpose your definitions and sensibilities over this situation. The Christian paradigm stands nevertheless.

God is just. Whatever God does He has morally sufficient reason for doing. Man is sinful and has no expectation of anything from God. The fact that God chooses to have mercy on any of us, bespeaks His goodness. It is presumptuous of you to question God or challenge Him just because His mercy shows itself in ways which you do not approve.

taxpayerslavery · Jul 15, 2003

shima

That is just it. Z Man believes that our free will has nothing to do with that, which ofcourse leads to the conclusion that God is not just if the person cannot influence Gods decision to either save him or not. God wouldn't be justice, but rather randomness.

There are many Christians who believe that from the begining a person is either hell bound or heaven bound and there is nothing a person can do to change this predestined fact.

If this were true, then there would be no point in caring about or seeking God. Judgement day would be a joke.

The Bible refutes the idea that we have no say in our destiny, time and time again. Adam had the choice not to eat from the forbidden tree, the Isrealites had the choice to go into the promise land or wander in the desert for 40 years and as I put in my previous post, Jesus told us that if we seek - we shall find.

Since God knows the future, he alreadys knows what we will choose, but he did not choose it for us.

shima · Jul 16, 2003

Z Man: God is just; In fact, what appears random to you is simply God acting sovereignly - doing as He sees fit.

Excuse me, but justice and doing as He sees fit are NOT the same thing. When a person gets sent to hell for no other reason than Gods whim, then that is not justice.

It is convenient when you can superimpose your definitions and sensibilities over this situation. The Christian paradigm stands nevertheless.

Oh, its not my definition, but the definition our society has agreed on. God doesn't adhere to it, and hence isn't just.

God is just. Whatever God does He has morally sufficient reason for doing.

I disagree, since God somehow doesn't produce the moral reason for doing something.

Man is sinful and has no expectation of anything from God. The fact that God chooses to have mercy on any of us, bespeaks His goodness.

It bespeaks of His whim, no more, no less.

It is presumptuous of you to question God or challenge Him just because His mercy shows itself in ways which you do not approve.

It is presumptuous of you to think that you know God better than someone else. Are you God? If not, then you cannot know His mind or nature.

The Ever Present Problem of Atheism (HOF thread)

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