User Tag List

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 45

Thread: Is the Great Tribulation Past or Future? - Battle Royale III - Dee Dee vs. Jerry

  1. #1
    Your powers are weak, old man. Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    26,574
    Thanks
    211
    Thanked 1,313 Times in 690 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Mentioned
    63 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    985994

    Exclamation Battle Royale III - Dee Dee vs. Jerry

    Battle Royale III - Dee Dee Warren vs. Jerry Shugart

    TOPIC:
    Is the Great Tribulation Past or Future??

    Have both combatants read, understand and agree to the battle Royale Rules?

    I need a post from each combatant stating "YES" regarding the rules.

    This will be a 10 round battle and will be refereed by me and by Becky.
    Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
    TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

    Download the new TOL app for iPhone, iPad, and Android...


  2. #2
    Your powers are weak, old man. Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    26,574
    Thanks
    211
    Thanked 1,313 Times in 690 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Mentioned
    63 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    985994
    ANY AND ALL POSTS ON THIS THREAD WILL BE DELETED UNLESS THEY ARE POSTED BY: Me (Knight), Becky, Dee Dee or Jerry. You may discuss Battle Royale III here.
    Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
    TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

    Download the new TOL app for iPhone, iPad, and Android...


  3. #3
    Your powers are weak, old man. Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    26,574
    Thanks
    211
    Thanked 1,313 Times in 690 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Mentioned
    63 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    985994
    After I receive a "yes" affirming that each combatant understands the rules I will flip a coin to determine who posts first, then that chosen combatant will have 48 hours to make his/her opening statement. Each combatant will then have 48 hours to make subsequent posts after the other combatant makes their post. You need NOT wait for me to officially end a round before making your next response.

    This will be a 10 round battle (20 post total - 10 posts each).
    Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
    TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

    Download the new TOL app for iPhone, iPad, and Android...


  4. #4
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    9,528
    Thanks
    1,029
    Thanked 5,841 Times in 3,933 Posts

    Mentioned
    78 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1850812
    Yes,I have read the rules and I understand the rules.I am ready to go.

    In His grace,--Jerry

  5. #5
    Your powers are weak, old man. Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    26,574
    Thanks
    211
    Thanked 1,313 Times in 690 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Mentioned
    63 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    985994
    Jerry I added the following two rule additions to the official rules....

    RULE ADDITION #6
    All rules already in existence for TheologyOnLine also apply to the Battles. Please refer to the TOL Commandments if you have questions.

    RULE ADDITION #7
    Do not attempt to make your entire argument in your FIRST post! Please keep the post length to no longer than 6 short to medium sized paragraphs. These debates should be POINT vs. COUNTER POINT style... in other words make a point and then let the other combatant respond and make his point, don't restate your original argument over and over for the length of the battle. A good example of post lengths can be found in Battle Royale II both Knight AND Zakath did good job of keeping their posts to reasonable lengths.

    Let me know if you have any questions about these additions.
    Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
    TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

    Download the new TOL app for iPhone, iPad, and Android...


  6. #6
    Dee Dee Warren
    Guest
    Okay, I have read the rules (even though everyone who knows me knows that I cannot even begin an introduction in such a short post ) but okay, I understand and agree.

    And just for funnies and a bit of trash talking.... (this is not part of the debate... here is a jab at both us preterists and futurists)



    Tommy Ice on "This Generation"

    Let's go ~!~!~!

  7. #7
    Your powers are weak, old man. Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    26,574
    Thanks
    211
    Thanked 1,313 Times in 690 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Mentioned
    63 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    985994

    Exclamation Lets get ready to ruummmmmble!

    Battle Royale III - Dee Dee Warren vs. Jerry Shugart

    TOPIC:
    Is the Great Tribulation Past or Future??

    OK... here's the coin toss.... heads is Dee Dee and tails is Jerry.....

    Heads it is!

    Dee Dee goes first and she is on the clock. Dee Dee has 48 hours to make her first post and then Jerry will have 48 hours to make his first post AFTER Dee Dee's first post has been posted.

    Let the battle begin!

    ANY AND ALL POSTS ON THIS THREAD WILL BE DELETED UNLESS THEY ARE POSTED BY: Me (Knight), Becky, Dee Dee or Jerry. You may discuss Battle Royale III here.
    Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
    TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

    Download the new TOL app for iPhone, iPad, and Android...


  8. #8
    Dee Dee Warren
    Guest

    Smile The Pepsi Challenge to Futurism

    When I make the statement that the Great Tribulation spoken of in Matthew 24 is over, futurists are inevitably drawn like a magnet to Daniel 9. Now this is understandable since Jesus mentions the phrase “the abomination of desolation” which finds its place in either Daniel 9:27 or Daniel 12:11 or both. However, the futurist then inserts a handy-dandy gap in between the 69th and the 70th week of Daniel’s prophecy (which is illegitimate and has blasphemous implications for other reasons) and through somewhat circular reasoning uses this to “prove” that the Great Tribulation is future.

    This makes absolutely no sense and does great violence to the text. When Daniel receives this prophecy, Jerusalem and the Temple are in ruins. He is told that the city will be rebuilt (and by implication the Temple will be rebuilt also). Within the same prophecy he is told that Jerusalem and the Temple will be destroyed. Gabriel also exhorts Daniel in verse 25 to know and understand this vision. Is there any chance in a billion years that Daniel knew and understood that it was not the city and Temple that he was just told would be rebuilt that are also spoken about as being destroyed?? Would he have any idea without any textual clue whatsoever that the destruction of THAT city and Temple would be skipped over and omitted… the city and Temple would be rebuilt again (without any mention of this event in the text), and it is THAT future city and Temple that are referenced as being destroyed?? This is simply unbelievable. Only one city and Temple are in view in this prophecy.

    However, further to the demise of futurism, Jesus makes it clear what Temple and city are in view beyond any shadow of a doubt in the Olivet Discourse, which futurists believe is speaking of the 70th week of Daniel (preterists don’t believe that it has anything to do with the 70th week of Daniel, but does have to do with events spoken of in Daniel 9, such as the abomination of desolation, which happen “outside” of the 70 weeks). In the Olivet Discourse the disciples ask Jesus certain questions, and these were not asked in a vacuum. The questions were prompted as follows (my commentary is in black – God’s Word is in red and italics):

    First using Mark as a source: Then as He went out of the temple (the Temple that existed back then), one of His disciples said to Him, “Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!” ( they are asking about the Temple that existed back then) And Jesus answered and said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down.” (referring to the Temple that existed back then!)

    Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, (that existed back then) Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, “Tell us, when will these things be?….” (it matters not that they asked Him more questions, obviously one of the things that they wanted to know was when the Temple that existed back then would be destroyed)

    Next using Luke as a source: Then, as some spoke of the temple, (the Temple that existed back then) how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, “These things which you see— (the Temple that was before their very eyes right then) the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.” So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? (again, part of “these things” MUST include the destruction that He just prophesied that prompted their questions to begin with)

    Lastly using Matthew as a source: Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. (the Temple that existed back then) And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? (the Temple that existed back then) Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here ( notice the word “here” it is referring to those actual stones, the ones that existed then) upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

    All these of the Synoptics of the Olivet Discourse contain the very solemn declaration by Jesus, “Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.” (Matthew 24:34, Luke 21:32, Mark 13:31)

    Now we know when the city and Temple were destroyed. It was in 70AD. If that is “one” of “all these things,” then ALL of the rest of that passage, at least up to Matthew 24:33, Luke 21:31, and Mark 13:31 happened in the first century as well. It is inescapable. The destruction the then existing Temple is a completely unique, datable, and nonrepeatable event. If the prophecy was not primarily fulfilled in the first century, it can never be. This also ties in with the “abomination of desolation” and Daniel 9. Jesus in identifying what Temple He was referring to totally destroys any notion that the Temple being referred to in Daniel 9 is any other Temple than the one that existed when Christ gave His Discourse. There is NO way around this. THIS IS WHERE I LAY DOWN THE GAUNTLET. It is an intractable problem for futurism.

  9. #9
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    9,528
    Thanks
    1,029
    Thanked 5,841 Times in 3,933 Posts

    Mentioned
    78 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1850812
    When I started studying the prophetic time when the "man of sin" would sit "in the Temple of God,showing himself that he is God",I kept asking myself the same question--"How would it be possible for this anti-christ to deceive the world,especially considering the fact that there are many prophecies that say that an imposter would sit in the Temple of God?"

    But after studying the teaching of the church at Rome and of the preterists,I have found the answer--all these events have already come to pass!At least that is what they teach.

    No need to worry about the "anti-christ" because he has already come and gone.No need to worry about Satan,because he is at this time bound and has been cast into the bottomless pit.

    How convenient for Satan!

    But those of us who are guided by the Scriptures know that all this is not true.We know that the "great tribulation" has not yet come to pass.

    Dee Dee is unable to distinguish between two different events that involve Jerusalem.However,Scripture does distinguish between an assault on Jerusalem when there will be no relief for the people,and another event when the Lord Jesus will deliver His people.

    The Apostles asked the Lord in regard to the destruction of the Temple then standing,"Master,but when shall these things be?"(Lk.21:7).

    In answer,the Lord described an assault on Jerusalem where there will be no relief or deliverence:

    "And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies,then know that the desolation is near...and they shall fall by the edge of the sword,and shall be led away captive into all nations"(Lk.21:20,24).

    And this is exactly what happened in A.D 70.

    The apostles also asked the Lord,"And what shall be the sign of Thy coming,and of the end of the age?"

    The Lord´s answer to this question involves another assault on Jerusalem,and this assault is tied to the prophecies contained in the book of Daniel (Mt.24:15).

    Here we can see that these events concern a "king" who "shall exalt himself,and magnify himself above every god...and he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain;yet he shall come to his end,and none shall help him"(Dan.11:36,45).

    The verses that immediately follow reveal that at this assault on Jerusalem the people of Daniel,the children of Israel,will "be delivered":

    "And at that time shall Michael stand up,the great prince that standeth for the children of thy people,and there shall be a time of trouble,SUCH AS NEVER WAS SINCE THERE WAS A NATION EVEN TO THAT SAME TIME; and at that time THY PEOPLE SHALL BE DELIVERED,every one that shall be found written in the book"(Dan.12:1).

    So here we see a completely different assault on Jerusalem,and this attack is described in the same terms as the "great tribulation"--"such as never was since there was a nation even to the same time"(compare with Mt.24:21)--but in this instance the people of God will be delivered.

    And since we know that the time has not yet arrived when the people of God in Jerusalem will be delivered,we also know that the event described as the "great tribulation" has not come to pass either.

    Next,I will deal with Dee Dee´s words in regard to the 70 Weeks and the Lord´s words that "This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled"(Mt.24:34).

    And perhaps Dee Dee will tell us when the following events happened:

    "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,and the moon shall not give its light,and the stars shall fall from heaven,and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken"(Mt.24:29).

  10. #10
    Your powers are weak, old man. Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    26,574
    Thanks
    211
    Thanked 1,313 Times in 690 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Mentioned
    63 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    985994

    DING DING DING....

    Thats it for round #1. Its now time for round #2 and Dee Dee is on the clock!
    Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
    TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

    Download the new TOL app for iPhone, iPad, and Android...


  11. #11
    Your powers are weak, old man. Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    26,574
    Thanks
    211
    Thanked 1,313 Times in 690 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Mentioned
    63 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    985994

    Exclamation

    ANY AND ALL POSTS ON THIS THREAD WILL BE DELETED UNLESS THEY ARE POSTED BY: Me (Knight), Becky, Dee Dee or Jerry. You may discuss Battle Royale III here.
    Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
    TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

    Download the new TOL app for iPhone, iPad, and Android...


  12. #12
    Your powers are weak, old man. Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    26,574
    Thanks
    211
    Thanked 1,313 Times in 690 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Mentioned
    63 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    985994

    Exclamation Commemorative Battle Royale III shirts now available!

    Commemorative Battle Royale III shirts now available!

    GET YOURS HERE!!!!!
    Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
    TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

    Download the new TOL app for iPhone, iPad, and Android...


  13. #13
    Dee Dee Warren
    Guest

    Exclamation Smack Down!!!

    I find it ironic that some people are so emotionally attached to the “antichrist” and Cobra helicopters and microchip implants that the thought that such things are not going to happen is just devastating. Personally, I find the idea that the G.T. is past a good thing, but hey, who am I to judge? I am, after all, in league not only with satan but also the Pope if you believe Jerry’s spin-doctoring. Why just slam preterists when you can get a free jab in at the Catholics too??

    Jerry pretends to have answered the [color=blue]intractable conundrum[/blue] I posited in my opening post. I am going to stick to that point like a piranha on a corndog because IF it is true, then nothing else can be said. It is a mouth-shutter. Here it is again in simple form: Jesus beginning in Mt 24:1; Mk 13:1; Lk 21:5 prophesied many things, including the destruction of the Temple that then existed. The destruction of the Temple that then existed is, by definition, an absolutely unique, datable, and nonrepeatable event. Each of these passages is capped off with the very solemn declaration, “Most assuredly I say to you this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.”(Mt 24:34; Mk 13:30; Lk 21:32). Since the destruction of the Temple that then existed is one of ALL these things, AND is a nonrepeatable event, that unequivocally thrusts the whole passage into the first century. I am sorry my futurist friend but there is no way around it. You can ignore the elephant in the room but that won’t stop him from squashing ya. You must deal with this point, and “yeah buts” don’t cut the mustard.

    Now let me show you where Jerry becomes quite painfully disjunctive and anticontextual. He admits that Lk 21:20-24 is about 70AD. Well my friends in so doing, he has sold the farm. If that “part” was fulfilled in the first century, since Jesus says in Lk 21:32 that ALL these things will happen within “this generation,” then ALL of the rest of the Lukan passage from Lk 21:5-21:31HAS to have happened as well including the “coming” in verse 27, or Jesus was a false prophet. And, Lk 21:20-24 is NOT speaking about a different event from Mt 24:15-18. Take a look for yourself and see.

    Jerry also engages in a classic case of begging the question in his claims that the Great Tribulation is a time when “Israel” is delivered so this cannot be the event in spoken of in Lk 21:20-24 which are described as the days of vengeance. No dice. Mark 13, Matthew 24, and Luke 21 are about the same events… there is no around that, no way to cut out just that one portion of Luke (not even the handy dandy magic dispie gap can help here). And Matthew certainly does not forecast any deliverance for those being judged either… it is just as much a prophesy of divine vengeance as in Luke (see Mt 23:31:39). All this being said, the elect (true Israel) WERE delivered. History records that not one Christian died in the siege of Jerusalem. Jerry will object that we are not true Israel. Really?? Paul says otherwise in Romans 11:17 and Phil 3:3 to name a few. Even in the OT, “Israel” transcended ethnic boundaries to mean the community of faith of belief in YHWH.

    And watch Jerry gore himself even further on his own horn – ouch!!

    And since we know that the time has not yet arrived when the people of God in Jerusalem will be delivered, we also know that the event described as the "great tribulation" has not come to pass either.
    Nonsense… since we know when the unique and nonrepeatable event of the destruction of the Temple that then existed happened, then we know that ALL those things (of which the Temple was “one”) prophesied to happen within “this generation” did in fact come to pass. Jesus did not say all of these things except ONE will happen within “this generation,” He said ALL of them would. Jerry has ignored this intractable dilemma, of course because he has no choice.

    Jerry also tried to distract the diligent reader’s attention from his obfuscation on my fatal challenge with:

    And perhaps Dee Dee will tell us when the following events happened:"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,and the moon shall not give its light,and the stars shall fall from heaven,and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken"(Mt.24:29).
    Sure I will, when Jerry tells me when YHWH saddled up ole Gabriel and rode into Dodge on a cloud to save David (2 Samuel 22:11-13) and then later did Part Two by popping a wheelie on a cumulous into Egypt and started kicking over idols (Is 19:1). Oh I see. Aren’t quite so literal there are we??

    Next,I will deal with Dee Dee´s words in regard to the 70 Weeks……..
    You sure you want to go there? Remember the last time you asked me what my Greek qualifications were to even be discussing Daniel.

  14. #14
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    9,528
    Thanks
    1,029
    Thanked 5,841 Times in 3,933 Posts

    Mentioned
    78 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1850812
    Dee Dee´s complete argument is based on the idea that the word "generation" can ONLY mean a "the whole multitude of men living at the same time".

    But according to Greek experts,it can also mean "men of the same stock,a family" ("Thayer´s Greek English Lexicon").

    We can see that the Lord Himself used that same word another time earlier in the same day,and by His use of the word we can see that it cannot possibly mean "the whole multitude of men living at the same time."

    He said,"Verily I say unto you,All these things shall come upon this generation"(Mt.23:36).

    And the Lord makes it plain as to whom He is referring,saying,"That upon YOU may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth from the blood of righteous Abel unto the BLOOD OF ZECHARIAH,son of Barachiah,WHOM YE SLEW between the temple and the altar"(Mt.23:35).

    That group of men whom the Lord was addressing DID NOT KILL ZECHARIAH.He died hundreds of years earlier.So when the Lord says,"Whom YE slew",He means the whole wicked race of Jews.Just two verses earlier He calls them "ye generation of vipers"!

    So we can see that the Lord is saying that the blood of Zechariah will come upon this generation,this race of vipers that have killed the prophets of God since the beginning of Israel.

    Next,in regard to my points that Scripture reveals that God´s people will be delivered when the Lord comes in His glory,Dee Dee writes that "History records that not one Christian died in the seige of Jerusalem." But Dee Dee fails to give any source for her statement.Perhaps she will tell us which historian said such a thing.

    However,Dee Dee fails to realize that Scripture reveals not only that the Lord will deliver His people when He comes,it also also reveals that the Lord will DESTROY those who come against His people:

    "And it shall come to pass,in that day,that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem"(Zech.12:9).

    According to all the accounts that I have read on AD 70,there was no defeat of the Roman armies.Perhaps Dee Dee can quote some unnamed historian to say that the armies of Rome were defeated in Jerusalem in AD 70.

    Next,we see that "immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,and the moon shall not give its light,and the stars shall fall from heaven."

    But Dee Dee says that the words of the Lord cannot be taken in a literal sense at all.First of all,since we see that ALL of the Lord´s previous words are not "symbolic" in any sense,it seems rather strange strange that He would all of a sudden start speaking in "symbolic" way.Especially considering the fact that He was telling them what to be LOOKING for in regard to His return.

    And if His words do not mean that there will be actual signs in the heavens,His words must have another meaning.Perhaps Dee Dee will tell us what His words mean.

  15. #15
    Your powers are weak, old man. Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    26,574
    Thanks
    211
    Thanked 1,313 Times in 690 Posts

    Blog Entries
    6
    Mentioned
    63 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    985994

    DING DING DING

    That's the end of round two.

    Dee Dee your back on the clock.
    Also be sure to.... Join TOL on Facebook | Follow TOL on Twitter
    TOL Newbies CLICK HERE or....upgrade your TOL today!

    Download the new TOL app for iPhone, iPad, and Android...


Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us