I consider myself a....

Noble Knight, I do not set a standard.
I am but a single man, I seek not to condemn anyone.

I am not trying to speak for social standards, perhaps I should clarify that.
Murderers, rapists, child abusers, they should be condemned.

I am merely speaking of the people you see at work or in daily life.
I do not assume to be their judge, would you?

Originally posted by Curtsibling
I am not trying to speak for social standards, perhaps I should clarify that.
Murderers, rapists, child abusers, they should be condemned.

Click to expand...

Says who?

I say that I am not speaking for social standards.

Society says that murderers, rapists, child abusers, they should be condemned.

The law is the law, right?

Just ask Z Man.

Originally posted by Curtsibling
I say that I am not speaking for social standards.

Society says that murderers, rapists, child abusers, they should be condemned.

The law is the law, right?

Just ask Z Man.

Click to expand...

So you are saying that if you lived in a land where those behaviors (murderers, rapists, child abusers) were not criminal you would be "OK" with that?

Can you think of societies throughout history that decriminalized behaviors that you think were wrong?

Did you read what I said, Sir Knight?
Where did you draw this criminal element from?
I am talking about let normal people being allowed to get on with their lives.

With due respect, Let me ask someting;

Why are you and Z Man trying to apply some wildly different concept onto a fairly uncontroversial statement by myself?

This is the context I meant:
If you lived or worked next to a pagan, for instance, would you let them go about their lives, or would you be affronted by what they are?

(feel free to answer)

This what I meant, nothing less nothing more.

Also:
One thing about me gentlemen, I call a spoon a spoon.
I don't go in for cryptics, I tell it like I see it. Straight talk.
If I wanted to add something about law inforcement into my statement I would have.

My statement had nothing to do with law, only we, as normal, law-abiding people.
It was yourselves that went off in a different direction with this social standards idea...

All the best,
Curt

Curt, you said:

Originally posted by Curtsibling
In my view, there are many ways to live on this Earth.
If you restrict yourself, in time you will be crushed, by your own self-made walls.

Live your life and leave others to theirs, best way to be.

Click to expand...

Do not the laws of society restrict people? There is only one way to live your life here on this Earth, and that's by the law. I can't be a murderer, or enjoy canabalism, or enjoy having sex with animals, or young boys, or girls, or enjoy a life of writing bad checks, or stealing, and so forth, because of the laws restrictions.

But you insist that we should live our lives the way we want to and let others live theirs. Do you not accept that other's have desires to live their life in a way that may be restricted by the law? And if not, who has that authority to declare them "criminals", or "not normal", because of their different taste in lifestyles?

You claim that Christians judge people, yet I believe we only uphold the Truth; the real Laws. People like you are the ones who really condemn and judge. For a person to live their lives and let be, they must adhere to your standards. For a person to live and let be in a Christians perspective, they must live in accordance to God's standards.

Forcing people to live to your standards is a little egotistical and judgemental, don't you think? You're such a hypocrite....

Originally posted by Curtsibling
Did you read what I said, Sir Knight?
Where did you draw this criminal element from?
I am talking about let normal people being allowed to get on with their lives.

With due respect, Let me ask someting;

Why are you and Z Man trying to apply some wildly different concept onto a fairly uncontroversial statement by myself?

This is the context I meant:
If you lived or worked next to a pagan, for instance, would you let them go about their lives, or would you be affronted by what they are?

(feel free to answer)

This what I meant, nothing less nothing more.

Also:
One thing about me gentlemen, I call a spoon a spoon.
I don't go in for cryptics, I tell it like I see it. Straight talk.
If I wanted to add something about law inforcement into my statement I would have.

My statement had nothing to do with law, only we, as normal, law-abiding people.
It was yourselves that went off in a different direction with this social standards idea...

All the best,
Curt

Click to expand...

I think you aroused our curiosity.

We get the point about the level of your comment but now we are taking your reasoning a step further - after all, thats what forums are for!

So now we are moving past statements of general civility and prodding your thoughts about deeper topics. Fair enough?

That is indeed fair.
Thank you, good Knight,

Excuse me if I came off as defensive there, I thought I was being misinterpreted.

Tell you what;
If ask me some questions, and I will do my best to answer and be informative.

Ummmm.....do you have me on ignore or something? I have posted already, and you've yet to reply....

Originally posted by Z Man
Ummmm.....do you have me on ignore or something? I have posted already, and you've yet to reply....

Click to expand...

I don't insult people by using ignore.
I am man enough to face a post on a forum!

Read my answer to Knight, I think I made myself clear, Z Man. :thumb:

Originally posted by Tye Porter
Curt:
Take it in two perspectives.
If I am the Christian I claim to be, Then I Love you.
If I love you, I do not want to see you lost.
It would be my goal to teach you the Truth of God.
If I were simply a man of my convictions, not theological,
then it would be imperative that i inflict their import upon you.
To simply leave you be, with your differing, and detrimental
philosophies, would make me a man, weak in my own
convictions, theological or not.

Am i way off, in answering your question, Curt?

Click to expand...

You understood and answered it, Tye.

But are other, normal, everyday people really your problem?

What if they are satisfied with their beliefs, who makes you the judge?

Is it not that you seek power over these folk, to make yourself feel in some way superior to them?

I'm curious to this...

Originally posted by Z Man
Curt, you said:

Do not the laws of society restrict people? There is only one way to live your life here on this Earth, and that's by the law. I can't be a murderer, or enjoy canabalism, or enjoy having sex with animals, or young boys, or girls, or enjoy a life of writing bad checks, or stealing, and so forth, because of the laws restrictions.

But you insist that we should live our lives the way we want to and let others live theirs. Do you not accept that other's have desires to live their life in a way that may be restricted by the law? And if not, who has that authority to declare them "criminals", or "not normal", because of their different taste in lifestyles?

You claim that Christians judge people, yet I believe we only uphold the Truth; the real Laws. People like you are the ones who really condemn and judge. For a person to live their lives and let be, they must adhere to your standards. For a person to live and let be in a Christians perspective, they must live in accordance to God's standards.

Forcing people to live to your standards is a little egotistical and judgemental, don't you think? You're such a hypocrite....

Click to expand...

You are reading into in a totally incorrect viewpoint.

I won't even entertain this silliness you try and attribute to me, Z Man. I know your game.

I was speaking in terms of your next door neighbour or friends, not Charles Manson or Hitler.

Get with the programme, lad!

So answer my question, I'll issue a new 'easy to comprehend' version:

Do you think normal law-abiding people should be allowed to follow whatever way of life they wish to lead...?
Like Athiests, Pagans, Gnostics, Muslisms, Orthodox Jews, Hindus, Buddhists and all the others?

Or merely Mr Jones next door? Would you let him be?

Would you let your friends get on with their busy lives?

(can you understand this, Z Man?) :thumb:

(Tye, you have answered, but feel free to comment!)

Originally posted by Tye Porter
Not at all.
For me to assume power over anyone, would be for me to assume
a type of dieistic complex.
I am but a creation, not a creator.
As we are all created, we must have faith in that Creator.
If a man is satisfied in his false beliefs, then he needs to be
made aware of his misunderstanding.
Fortunately, we are given the freedom to practice our faith,
and my faith is such, that i am impressed to spread that Good News
of my faith.
I cannot feel superior, or better than any one.
I am not better, just better off.
Not of my own accord, either.
I am not the Judge, our Creator is.
Again, if i left a man to be satisfied with his ill-gotten, and
detrimental false beliefs, what would be my conviction?

Click to expand...

These people are only wrong through your eyes!
You are ready to put yourself of the throne of judgement, because this what you are doing!
You say this is through the creator, but you are speaking, not he.
So what do you do if they use the same mindset in regards to you, Tye?

Imagine an athiest man who for talkings sake, saved your family from drowing in a river, by risking his own life, is he a sinner and not worthy?

How would you deal with that?

Originally posted by Tye Porter
If i am satisfied in my belief, and mine is the correct one,
who are you to judge that i am wrong?
Who are you, to say to me, i am wrong, in showing you the truth?

Click to expand...

I could say that same phrase to you, who is really wrong or right?

Originally posted by Tye Porter
Is my attempt, to show a man his shortcomings, in the eyes of
the Creator, in some way making him feel inferior, that he
wrongly feels that i am superior?

Click to expand...

I depends on the way you phrase things, and your motivations?

Do you really care about these people you want to save?
Or have you been told to? Who is your leader?

What is in it for you, Tye?

Originally posted by Curtsibling
I was speaking in terms of your next door neighbour or friends, not Charles Manson or Hitler.

Click to expand...

What's the difference?

Do you think normal law-abiding people should be allowed to follow whatever way of life they wish to lead...?
Like Athiests, Pagans, Gnostics, Muslisms, Orthodox Jews, Hindus, Buddhists and all the others?

Or merely Mr Jones next door? Would you let him be?

Would you let your friends get on with their busy lives?

Click to expand...

The problem is normal, law-abiding citizens still makes mistakes every now and then. Christians call this sin....

Therefore, everyone is guilty of it; no one is perfect. Not even me. My only intentions in speaking with others about Christ is to show them the only way to be saved before it's too late for them. It's an act of love; nothing more or less.

Why does it irritate you that Christians spread the good news of the gospel? What will hurt to tell people that Christ loves them so much that He died for them?

Originally posted by Z Man
What's the difference?

Click to expand...

Gosh!
What kind of neighbours do you have, Z Man? :noway:

Originally posted by Z Man The problem is normal, law-abiding citizens still makes mistakes every now and then. Christians call this sin....

Click to expand...

Oh, come on, Z man!
There is a 'slight' difference between not returning a neighbour's shovel, and the calculated murder of 6.5 million Jews in Eastern Europe!

Originally posted by Z Man Therefore, everyone is guilty of it; no one is perfect. Not even me. My only intentions in speaking with others about Christ is to show them the only way to be saved before it's too late for them. It's an act of love; nothing more or less.

Click to expand...

Everyone has flaws, yes, we can agree on that.
What is it you are trying to tell me here, Z Man?

Spit it out!

Originally posted by Z Man Why does it irritate you that Christians spread the good news of the gospel? What will hurt to tell people that Christ loves them so much that He died for them?

Click to expand...

Whoa there!
Z Man, I fear you are seeing only what you want to see!
This claim is you made is false, now you are chasing phantoms.
This is evidence that you have had your ears closed during the whole debate! :noway:

Read this, my good Z Man! Perhaps you missed it the 200 previous times;

Where did I say that your faith irritates me?
I said that I am not at odds with your views!
I have said this repeatedly!

Ho ho! Surely that hit home!

Now for your test! Tell me where I denied your right to recognise Christ in any of my posts to you?

I wouldn't presume such a thing!

This argument is pointless.
Can't you see we are not at odds?
I am not at odds with you, are you with me?
Surely not?

Originally posted by Curtsibling
Oh, come on, Z man!
There is a 'slight' difference between not returning a neighbour's shovel, and the calculated murder of 6.5 million Jews in Eastern Europe!

Everyone has flaws, yes, we can agree on that.
What is it you are trying to tell me here, Z Man?

Spit it out!

Click to expand...

Ok. Here you go;

You, nor I, nor anyone else on this planet is no better than Hitler.

(Does that hurt your pride? I'm expecting a barrage of egotistical remarks about how you live a "good life".... )

Originally posted by Z Man
Ok. Here you go;

You, nor I, nor anyone else on this planet is no better than Hitler.

(Does that hurt your pride? I'm expecting a barrage of egotistical remarks about how you live a "good life".... )

Click to expand...

Well, you can keep expecting.
Because I know your statement is loaded.

If you mean that Hitler was a mere human being, yes.
We are no better than each other.

But if you think Hitler's actions are as acceptable as a normal person, then you are a few Panzers short of a Blitzkrieg...

:kookoo:

Re: Ok!

Re: Ok!

Originally posted by Tye Porter
I am using the word of the Creator.
The Creator judged us all, found us all guilty, and all living in sin.
He gave us an "out", with His Son.
My message to the other gentleman, who has not taken
advantage of this "out", is the word of the "Lord".
That word would "Judge" him, not me, directly.

Click to expand...

Hmmm...
A bit of a 'capture clause'...
Don't you think this is a machination for earthly churches to make you follow them...?

"You are bad! Only WE can sve you?"

Who introduced you to God? Humans, right?
Someone taught you the ideal, right?

Why can't you reconcile god to yourself?
Why follow dubious authority from others?

And why must everyone be a sinner? (I have always contested this idea.)

If you are loyal to a good code of laws, like god's for talking sake, how can you go wrong?

A person like Mother Teresa is not a sinner, surely, spending her live to help others...

How can you judge her?
Have any of you done even a micro-fraction of her good work?

I'd be honoured to hear your reactions....

Originally posted by Tye Porter
If an atheist saved my family, from drowning?
You answered your own question.
He is an atheist, he is lost, unsaved, in denial.
Is he now judging me, because i am saved?
That atheist is still alive, because he feels that he
has a goal in life, and he does.
His goal is to learn about, stop denying, Jesus, and
become saved.
None of us are worthy, that is why we need salvation.

Click to expand...

But you wouldn't be grateful?

Originally posted by Tye Porter
I want to have tons of friends, relatives, and friends,
in Heaven, loving the Lord, and celebrating our salvation.
That's what is in it for me.
What is it in for the people I want to save, is their
salvation.They want to be saved too, they just have yet to
admit it out loud.
The Lord tells us, in His Word, that He is right.
They are wrong.

Click to expand...

How can you say they are wrong with such authority?
What if you are wrong?
Have you really thought about it?

Originally posted by Tye Porter
Why do you feel, that we should be left to our beliefs?
If, as you insist, you are not in oposition to the Christian Faith,
Then why would you leave an atheistic religionist,
or a hedonist, or any other lost soul, to be content in his
false beliefs?
How could you live with your convictions, your Faith,
your own heart? Do you not care for these people?
Would you rather your family, loved ones, friends, etc,
be lost and damned for eternity?
:curious:

Click to expand...

You see, I do not think they will be damned, that is where we differ.

I don't think we even know what happens after death, we can only hope or guess.

If someone is righteous, be they a pagan, athiest, muslim or christian, I think they are doing the right thing.

I know non-christians who spend most of their lives helping others, and for me to reckon they are going to some sort of
hades for their helping of youngsters and the elderly is not feasible, to me at least.

Saying that good people are damned unless they join your version of faith, no matter what , to me that smacks of tribalism and self-exaltation.

Let me get this straight:


Case 1:
An athiest doctor who spends his life saving children with neuro-surgery,
bringing hope and joy to countless parents, when he dies he is going to hell?

Case 2:
Adolf Hitler, pagan nazi dictator and killer of countless millions, hater of christianity
and arch-warmonger, suddenly finds god before his death, and gets to heaven and salvation...?

Is this what you are trying to sell me?


Sorry, but I do not accept this, no way. :nono:

Originally posted by Curtsibling
If you mean that Hitler was a mere human being, yes.
We are no better than each other.

But if you think Hitler's actions are as acceptable as a normal person, then you are a few Panzers short of a Blitzkrieg...

:kookoo:

Click to expand...

All I'm saying is that you, nor I, nor anyone else is better than Hitler.

Re: Re: Ok!

Re: Re: Ok!

Originally posted by Curtsibling
Let me get this straight:


Case 1:
An athiest doctor who spends his life saving children with neuro-surgery,
bringing hope and joy to countless parents, when he dies he is going to hell?

Case 2:
Adolf Hitler, pagan nazi dictator and killer of countless millions, hater of christianity
and arch-warmonger, suddenly finds god before his death, and gets to heaven and salvation...?

Is this what you are trying to sell me?


Sorry, but I do not accept this, no way. :nono:

Click to expand...

No one is saying that Hitler was right; I'm merely trying to say that no one is right.

God can save anyone, no matter what they've done. That would include Hitler.