The Ever Present Problem of Atheism (HOF thread)

We don't have to work out our own salvation in order to survive or to benefit mankind. It may be true that we have to work out our own salvation in order to go to heaven, but some of us aren't interested in receiving the pleasure of heaven. The question is, who is of more worth, an unsaved altruist or a relatively impotent Christian?

God does not see like we do. He sees all men as equal. He is no respecter of persons. The meek shall one day inherit this earth, and it is because God sees us as worthy, because of the application of Jesus' Blood to our lives, and it is all His Doing.

Are all men equal in their complete irrespectability? Even if so, men, in other ways, are of unequal worth. Perhaps, to God, Jesus' blood gives some value to us all for God's purposes. But, is that value equal among all people? Even if so, cannot we add to each the value that he has in terms of his unique benefit to humans? Surely, Hitler's benefit to humans was not as great as that of Mother Theresa.

Originally posted by Singerian Surely, Hitler's benefit to humans was not as great as that of Mother Theresa.

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God sees Hitler and Mother Theresa (when they were alive) as sinners. Mother Theresa was saved by grace. If Hitler had repented and sought forgiveness at the cross, he could have had eternal life. Jesus said that whosoever would come to Him, He would in no wise cast out. Yes, they are considered equally as valuable, and yet the good works count for something, since there will be degrees of reward, as well as of punishment. God does not judge the way we do, though. He sees a woman giving two cents in an offering, and considers her offering better than the hundreds of dollars given by all the other people put together. He considers that so, because she gave out of her need, and put into the offering all that she had, even all that she had to live on. He knows everything about everyone. They are not more or less valuable than one another, but there will be different rewards and punishments. I also believe that if there were only one person who sinned, and the only way to offer Salvation to him was for Jesus to die on the cross in his place, that He would have done it. I believe that each and every single soul is of much more value than men realize. God considered us worthy of sending Jesus to die in our places to buy us back from the devil. I thank God for that, every single day.

Reward isn't directly related to good works, though, is it? That is evidenced by the fact that many do good works and yet will receive no reward. I am speaking in particular of atheists and those of other faiths.

Originally posted by famousGandalf7
No, sometimes it seems too hard, but I heard someone say, one day, listening to a rather direct and hard-hitting sermon, "It's tight, but its right." That helps me to accept The Word of God, especially when it seems harsh on my flesh, and so I have remembered it.

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But if it doesn't seem right to you, then you are willingly doing something you consider wrong to please your deity?

Something's missing from that equation... :nono:

Actually, for those of us who believe God's Promises, we are told that we will only pass through 'the valley of the shadow of death,' and I have actually never heard of a case of anyone ever being bitten by the shadow of a dog, so I am not worried about death.

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Poetic language better descriptive of depression than death.

I have an endless hope, not a hopeless end, as those who must partake of the second death do.

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So you believe that people die more than once? Why isn't that merely another spin on the much older belief of reincarnation?

Originally posted by Zakath But if it doesn't seem right to you, then you are willingly doing something you consider wrong to please your deity?

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It is not so much that it seems wrong, but more like if there were no law I would just love to indulge every whim of my flesh. Food, sex, immorality; these things have attraction to my body of flesh, but they are wrong, and yet to my flesh they are natural and tempt me.

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

So you believe that people die more than once? Why isn't that merely another spin on the much older belief of reincarnation?

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Being cast into the Lake of fire at judgement is what Jesus called The Second Death. No, there is no re-incarnation.

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

I believe that this scripture proves that there is no re-incarnation. Also, that the Second Death, is not death, which happens to men once, but that their presence is no more allowed in Heaven.

But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

To those who are judged like this, being separated from loved ones and from God forever is a fate far worse than death.

God is not about furthering mankind we have to stop thinking God is about that. God sees ALL humans as murderers, liars, thieves, adulteres so why would he care if one person is better than the other? You know what I mean.

A godless Mother Thersea and Hitler are the same in God's eyes, they are both waging a war against Him, the impotant Christian isn't waging war against God, the christian is just that loser kid in the family. So to speak.

If Ghandi and Hitler are both trying to hit/kill me are they going to be different in my eyes?

Sin is mankind's drug and we were all born drug addicts. That is how something can 'feel' right but be wrong.

Even if Ghandi was harming God, he certainly wasn't doing to the same extent as Marx. Ghandi, though not thechnically a Christian, specifically promoted much of Jesus' message. It's conceivable that he was a factor in many Hindus' conversion to Christianity. Marx told people that all religion was a tool of the rich to keep the poor oppressed. It is not likely that he convinced anyone to become a Christian. It is likely he did the opposite. If Ghandi is trying to hit you and Marx is trying to kill you, are they going to be different in your eyes?

What about a Christian who is relatively weak, like, giving him the benefit of the doubt, Jim Baker. It's conceivable that his scandal turned people off from Christianity. I doubt he motivated anyone to become a Christian. Was a man like the described Ghandi of less value in God's eyes than a man like the described Jim Baker?

God doesn't care about the furtherment of mankind? Why did he save us? For fun?

Even if Ghandi was harming God, he certainly wasn't doing to the same extent as Marx. Ghandi, though not thechnically a Christian,
specifically promoted much of Jesus' message. It's conceivable that he was a factor in many Hindus' conversion to Christianity. Marx
told people that all religion was a tool of the rich to keep the poor oppressed. It is not likely that he convinced anyone to become a
Christian. It is likely he did the opposite. If Ghandi is trying to hit you and Marx is trying to kill you, are they going to be different in
your eyes?

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I hate hit/kill for both people not for one or the other. God doesn't see one hurting Him more than the other, God sees them both waging war against Him and that is all that matters. Marx is worse than Charles Manson in our eyes but they are both on the same side fighting against the things of God. Ghandi might of done good deeds but in Gods eyes Ghandi still rejected Him and was against Him, he was also on the same side as Marx and the like.

What about a Christian who is relatively weak, like, giving him the benefit of the doubt, Jim Baker. It's conceivable that his scandal
turned people off from Christianity. I doubt he motivated anyone to become a Christian. Was a man like the described Ghandi of less
value in God's eyes than a man like the described Jim Baker?

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In Gods eyes we are all of the same worth, in the fact that Christ died for all of us, but one is in Gods family(for arguments sake Baker) and the other is lined up against Him. If you are not for Christ you are against Him there are no other sides.

God doesn't care about the furtherment of mankind? Why did he save us? For fun?

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No, God is not for the furthering of mankind; remember, he thinks we are all murderers, liars, theievs, and adulterers. He saved us(for many reasons) but to show His love for us and prove how much He loves us, and the good that comes from a saved man is to further God's glory and power, not to further mankind.

What God chooses to see has no bearance on what is actually happenning. Marx and Ghandi may both be doing damage, but Marx is doing more of it.

Your worth is not determined simply by what side you're on. For example, in a football game, the first-string Steelers center and the third-string Steelers center are both on the same team, but they are of different worth. That is why the first-stringer is payed more; however, even if he suddenly weren't payed more, he would still be of more worth because he does more for the team. Why does the fact that Christ died for us all make us all worth the same. Where's the Biblical support?

God acts completely out of self-interest? Even so, there must be value in things independently of their benefit to God. Certainly, a child in health is a better situation than a child suffering, regardless of the existance of God.

Originally posted by Singerian
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God doesn't care about the furtherment of mankind? Why did he save us? For fun?

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Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

We are fulfilling our highest created purpose when we reflect back to God his own glory. He must increase, but I must decrease.

My paperweight was created to be used as an ashtray, but that doesn't mean it is most beneficial as an ashtray. As I very rarely smoke, it is most beneficial as a paperweight. Why should what we were created for have anything to do with what we should do?

Originally posted by Singerian
My paperweight was created to be used as an ashtray, but that doesn't mean it is most beneficial as an ashtray. As I very rarely smoke, it is most beneficial as a paperweight. Why should what we were created for have anything to do with what we should do?

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Setting aside any moral considerations of smoking, you have made a good point. As the creator (or in your case master) of the ashtray, you have final determination (i.e. judgment) as to its usefulness in whatever role it plays. In short, are you happy with your ashtray?

May my God be pleased with me, a vessel He as formed, whether I hold ashes or something more valuable.

Nova said:

when I believed in Christianity it really bothered me that a lot of other Christians didn't seem to have a problem with the idea of people like Mother Theresa or some Buddhist who lived a life of compassion being tossed into the lake of fire, that seems pretty sadistic to me. I don't think most Christians are awful people though, even fundamentalists, but I don't believe anyone, not even Hitler deserves Eternal torment...and the idea that Christians tend to believe that EVERYONE deserves eternal torment when we didn't even ask to be born, i don't see any good reason why god would make the 'original sin' of Adam and Eve a hereditary disease, that means we are suffering the consequences of someone else's mistake. I think if god were truly loving and just as the Bible claims he would judge people based on their attitude and how they lived their lives above all else. The idea that someone like Jerry Falwell deserves eternal heaven and Ghandi should burn in hell just doesn't make sense.

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So agnostics believe that if God does exist he let's us make up our own rules? God is more like a Fairy Godmother?

No one but God knows whether or not Mother Theresa, Ghandi or anyone else is destined for heaven.

By the way - I love your avatar!

I'm glad that the ashtray is serving a good purpose

The ashtray, as a paperweight, is not a vessel at all. If God made the ashtray to be a vessel, then it, for its intended purpose, is useless. It is only useful as a paperweight. The problem is, I would expect such imperfectness from the ashtray manufacturer; not from God.

The point is, serving God's intended purpose(his own pleasure) is only best if more pleasure could not be caused by another purpose. The question is, does God consider his own pleasure to be most valuable from an altruistic point-of-view or from an egotistical point of view? As an altruist, I have no interest in such a perspective. No one should.

I am not sure if I get where you are coming from Singerian, but living a life for Christ is better than living a life for another reason. So actually more pleasure does come from Gods intended purpose. God is saying "I am God, seek me, get into my head, I will show you what life is all about." It is the mind of God, the ways of God, and having a relationship with God, how can that not be better than anything else? It's God.

I remember when I was on fire for God when I dedicated my life to Him, man let me tell you, I had a joy that I only experienced when the Denver Bronco's won their first Superbowl. It was sweet joy that did not fade like the Bronco feeling did until I started to slowly get lazy and let off the gas so to speak.

I was once a Christian, too. But I was never really satisfied with myself until I decided to abandon Christianity in favor of altruism. That's the problem with Christianity. It's not about what's best for all sentience. It's about what's best for God. If accepting God happens to benefit all sentience, that's simply a latent effect. The primary purpose is to live for Him. It's a selfish way of living. It's just a different self you're living for.

Sing, not to rehash an old debate but you were never a christian b/c if you were you would still be one today. Gods Spirit would still be in you and you would still believe(whether you follow or not).

God knows what's best for us and you might think living for Him is a selfish act on His part but it is what's best. God is doesn't 'think' He knows what's best, He knows. God is saying I am God, I am the pinnical of everything in this life. It's like a marriage, if you really love that person above all else, you will want to live for them, you will take more joy in living for that person than living for yourself.

Do you really believe that God will be outdone by anything on this Earth? Do you really think God(of all people) will be second to anything? Honestly, would serving myself bring more joy and blessing than if I served God? Do you think God would say "You are right Jeremy, I could not of brought more pleasure to your life than what you experienced serving yourself". If you really think God would be outdone on this earth than there is not much more to say.

God has to be better than everything on earth b/c that is what God is, He's God.