The Ever Present Problem of Atheism (HOF thread)

>>He isn't demanding your love. Like you said, you have a choice. Free will.<<

1) Love him and go to heaven.
2) Don't love him and go to hell.

Where exactly do you get it from that he doesn't DEMAND love? He punishes you if you don't love him, which translates as a demand to me.

If we were talking about people here, you would instantly agree that someone demands love as soon as he punishes people who don't love him. I'd call that person "obsessive".

>>According to the CIA World Factbook, the religious make-up of the US is: Protestant 56%, Roman Catholic 28%, Jewish 2%, other 4%, none 10%. Where in the world do you get "all those people converting away"???<<

Well, Zakath it one. And the world is much larger than just the US.

>>Your kicking and screaming is proof that you haven't found anything to fill that hole.<<

On the contrary, I have found a lot of things to fill that "hole". That you don't understand that doesn't mean it isn't true.

>>Cheer up atheists - at least you're not dead last!!<<

You act like its a CONTEST. I seriously doubt wether the truth would be influenced by how many people believe in it. After all, this isn't Discworld.

On the contrary, I have found a lot of things to fill that "hole". That you don't understand that doesn't mean it isn't true.

Click to expand...

Contrary??? I'M THE ONE who said many people, Christians and non-Christians alike, find things to fill the hole. But NOTHING fits as well or as satisfyingly as God.

Well, Zakath it one. And the world is much larger than just the US.

Click to expand...

You mean :zakath: ? Nuff said.

Where exactly do you get it from that he doesn't DEMAND love? He punishes you if you don't love him, which translates as a demand to me.

Click to expand...

You obviously feel like you are being demanded to do something. Can you describe this feeling?

>>But NOTHING fits as well or as satisfyingly as God.<<

Perhaps not to YOU.

>>You obviously feel like you are being demanded to do something. Can you describe this feeling?<<

I don't believe in God, therefore I don't feel any demand on me to love God. Perhaps I should ask YOU how it feels.

Basically, being DEMANDED to do something isn't bad. It depends on what is it. Some task at work i can handle. However, emotions are very different. I cannot stop/start loving someone on command, that is not how emotions work. So if the bible states that god WANTS us to love him, and tosses us in hell if we don't, then I simply don't believe the bible because the person/persons who wrote it obviously didn't understand emotions. Now, if they didn't understand emotions, it is very probable that the bible was written by MEN, and not by god.

It amazes me that people think it would be hard for God (who is all-powerfull) to die at the cross. After all, IF Jezus was God, then he surely had all of gods powers. Since God created the entire universe and is immortal, Jezus dying on the cross means nothing. He didn't sacrifice anything, since that requires giving up something. Since Jezus couldn't and didn't die, he didn't sacrifice anything.

Click to expand...

You're kidding right? Apparently you haven't put much thought into who God is and what He actually did on earth.

A Holy God lets Himself be spit on, beaten, wipped, and than NAILED TO A CROSS, and on top of extreme pain the Father lays the sin of the world upon Him and it's no sacrifice? You know, Jesus can take the pain, but for a Holy God to have sin be placed upon Him for sacrifice is something so vile we have no idea. Also, the fact that the fellowship between the Father and the Son was broken for that brief time(which for eternity past was always solid) when the Father had to look away once the sin of the world was upon Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by shima
I don't believe in God.

Click to expand...

Sure you do. That much is obvious. The question is -- why are you mad at Him?

Perhaps not to YOU.

Click to expand...

B-I-N-G-O!!!

And you are not qualified to say what fits better because you have never tried God.

Every point of view has another angle
And every angle has its merit
But it all comes down to faith
That's the way I see it

You can say that love is not divine and
You can say that life is not eternal
"All we have is now"
But I don't believe it

There's a God-shaped hole in all of us
And the restless soul is searching
There's a God-shaped hole in all of us
And it's a void only he can fill

Does the world seem gray with empty longing
Wearing every shade of cynical
And do you ever feel that
There is something missing?

That's my point of view...

Originally posted by shima

Where exactly do you get it from that he doesn't DEMAND love? He punishes you if you don't love him, which translates as a demand to me.

Click to expand...

You don't understand the love of God. You are rushing to destruction. God has moved to snatch you (save you) from destruction. Instead of reaching up and grasping God's hand, you give him the finger. Then you have the audacity to claim God is a big meannie by being unfair.

The Love and Grace of God has appeared for all to see in the person of Jesus Christ. Some simply choose to trample Him.

Ahh, when the Bible fails, Roger can always fall back on cheesy poetry and song lyrics as authoritative support for his argument.

:zakath:

Wish I had what I needed
To be on my own
'Cause I feel so defeated
And I'm feeling alone

And it all seems so helpless
And I have no plans
I'm a plane in the sunset
With nowhere to land

And all I see
It could never make me happy
And all my sand castles spend their time collapsing

chorus:
Let me know that you hear me
Let me know your touch
Let me know that you love me
Let that be enough

Jealousy will get you nowhere, Roger. You'd love to have your own smiley, wouldn't you? :chuckle:

welcome to the planet
welcome to existence
everyone's here (everyone's here)
everybody's watching you now
everybody waits for you now
what happens next? (what happens next?)

i dare you to run
i dare you to move (i dare you to move)
i dare you to lift yourself up off of the floor
i dare you to move (i dare you to move)
like today never happened
today never happened before

welcome to the fallout
welcome to resistance
The tension is here (tension is here)
between who you are and who you could be
between how it is and how it should be

(chorus)

maybe redemption has stories to tell
maybe forgiveness is right where you fell
where can you run to escape from yourself?
Where you gonna go?
Where you gonna go?
salvation is here

prodigalson
>>A Holy God lets Himself be spit on, beaten, wipped, and than NAILED TO A CROSS, and on top of extreme pain the Father lays the sin of the world upon Him and it's no sacrifice?<<

No, it wasn't. It would have been if he were HUMAN, but Jezus obviously isn't human. He is God (according to some). Therefore, the "extreme pain" you say he suffered simply isn't there. After all, who could hurt an all-powerfull being?


One Eyed Jack:
>>Sure you do. <<

No, I don't. And neither do you

>>And you are not qualified to say what fits better because you have never tried God.<<

So? You haven't tried Allah, or Shiva, or any of the trillions of other possibilities. To conclude after a few tries that "God fits best" is nonsense. To be able to conclude that, you would have to try ALL possibilities.

>>That's my point of view...<<

That was to be expected. Still, one day perhaps you will wake up and find the real world.

Lightson:
>>You don't understand the love of God. You are rushing to destruction.<<

We are all rushing to destruction. The question is: why do YOU refuse to accept that you do?

>>God has moved to snatch you (save you) from destruction. Instead of reaching up and grasping God's hand, you give him the finger. Then you have the audacity to claim God is a big meannie by being unfair.<<

That is because I have a good sense of justice. Demanding love, and punishing me when I don't give it is not justice. Its vengeance.

:zakath:

Tell you where you need to go
Tell you when you need to leave
Tell you what you need to know
Tell you who you need to be

Everything inside you know there's more than what you hear
So much more than empty conversation filled with empty words

And you're on fire when He's near you
You're on fire when He speaks
You're on fire, burning at these mysteries

Give me one more time around
Give me one more chance to see
Give me everything You are
Give me one more chance to be

Everything inside me looks like everything I hate
You are the hope I have for change, You are the only chance I'll take

When I'm on fire when You're near me
I'm on fire when You speak
I'm on fire burning at these mysteries
These mysteries

I've been standing on the edge of me
standing on the edge of me
standing on the edge of me
standing on the edge of me
standing on the edge of everything I've never been before
And I've been standing on the edge of me
standing on the edge

And I'm on fire when You're near me
I'm on fire when You speak
I'm on fire burning at these mysteries

trillions

Click to expand...

:kookoo:

Roger,

Ain't no fire,
Ain't no burnin'.
The only mystery is how long you'll continue with your foolishness.

:zakath:

If I raise my hands just to lift the shade
Will I reveal a sky heavy and gray?
Will last night be a memory sweetly fading?
How I hate a morning starting out this way
On these lonely, raging mornings I would whip You if I could
But You're on the mighty side of strong
And the perfect side of good
If I raise my hands will You grab my by the wrists
And will You try to pull me from the fray?
And even if my fingers join together into fists
Will You hold me firmly anyway?
Because I would try to escape You but for everyday I'm sure
That You're on the huge side of big
And the holy side of pure

Okay
Hear what I say
As I raise my hands in surrender today
Okay
Here I will stay
Hands in the air, singing have Thine own way

If I raise my hands so weak and thin and frail
Will You reveal the light of mercy in Your eyes?
If I cry to You faintly will my feeble whisper fail?
Or will it find its way to a reply?
Because, now that I'm exhausted I think I'm ready to admit
That I have spent all my resistance on someone I can't resist

Light from my window sill, make my way to the door
I hang my head and still, I know you're wanting more
Over the threshold now, I move across the yard
All that my will allows, my every step is hard
Now in the garden I carve out six feet of space
There make my will comply, lie down upon my face
Been toe to toe too long, I'm tired of fighting You
I see You were too strong 'cause I am black and blue
But now I understand a loser's due to win
How every dying man is sure to rise again
So I raise my left hand one, I raise my right hand two
Under the morning sun, my spirit cries to You

Okay
Hear what I say
As I raise my hands in surrender today
Right here
Under the sun
Hands in the air, saying Thy will be done

I'm here
Under the sun
Hands in the air, singing Thy will be done Okay
Here I will stay
Hands in the air, singing have Thine own way
Have Thine own way

But he's not there, Roger. :nono:

The two-sided conversation is all in your head.

Originally posted by shima
No, I don't.

Click to expand...

Of course you do. If you didn't, you wouldn't be in denial. Why are you mad at Him?