The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

Kevin

New member
Still no answers?

Still no answers?

Right Idea,

I have repsonded to your posts with plently of Biblical evidence to support my case. You dodge it. Until you pay me the respect of answering my questions and evidence, I'm not going to continue to play the game of "chase Rightidea around the merry go round without him adressing my arguments."

I've heard what you have said and provided evidence that shows the contrary. Address them please. If you don't, then I really don't have any reason to take your position seriously.
 

servantofChrist

New member
"RightIdea," I see you forgot to insert 3 words before your moniker: "In Search Of..." You are definitely "in search of" the "right idea" because all the ones you've conveyed about Jesus' words in Matt. 28:19-20 are as off-the-mark as any I've ever seen.

You're one of those who has been taught error, believed it, and uses it as the foundation from which you attempt to teach others. You fit perfectly into the category of people that Paul told Timothy set themselves forth as teachers of the law but who in reality "confidently affirm what they know nothing about."

I cannot believe you said that the apostles of Christ "abandoned" His orders to "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them...." What an asinine statement! Peter's actions in Acts 2 are living proof of his total belief in - and uncompromised obedience to - EXACTLY what Jesus had commanded in the Great Commission. Jesus commanded baptism to people of "ALL NATIONS" - not merely to the Jews. Secondly, you need to look at Lk. 24:47, where the scripture says that "repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to ALL nations, beginning from Jerusalem." Not just to the Jews, but to "ALL nations."

With regard to rightly dividing the word of truth, no one needs to learn how to do that more than you, sir... You said that Jesus only dealt with the Jews (the lost sheep of the house of Israel, Matt. 15:24), yet, He did bless the Canaanite woman who was not a Jew, whose daughter was severely oppressed by a demon, when she persisted for Him to heal her, saying to her, " 'O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.' And her daughter was healed instantly." (Matt. 15:22-28).

Secondly, even though Jesus said He was "sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," yet when His earthly ministry had been completed and He was near His departure (Ascension), He then commissioned His apostles to go and take the remainder of His teaching and message to "all nations": "I have many things to say to you but you can not bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth...He will glorify me, FOR HE WILL TAKE WHAT IS MINE AND DECLARE IT TO YOU" (John 16:12-14).

Therefore, Jesus also spoke to the Gentiles - which means US - by the things HE revealed through the Holy Spirit to the apostles in the years AFTER He had ascended back to Heaven. This means that when Peter "COMMANDED" the GENTILES in the house of Cornelius to "be baptized" with "water," Peter was speaking - and COMMANDING - the words of CHRIST to those GENTILES! (see Acts 10:47-48)

You know what, "RightIdea" (?), your tunnel vision from which you view "works" is going to cost you your soul if you don't open your eyes to the New Testament's teaching on OBEDIENCE! Because obedience to Christ's commands is what saves us (Heb. 5:9) - AND "WORKS" ARE THE PROOF AND THE EVIDENCE OF OUR OBEDIENCE!!! It isn't the works themselves that save us (Eph. 2:9), but they DO justify us because they show God that we acknowledged His authority over us and that we took His commands and instructions to us SERIOUSLY! (Jas. 2:24)

I have NEVER seen so many BLIND people when it comes to the doctrine of works! You look at the scriptures' teaching on this subject with TUNNEL VISION and you therefore do NOT have the "RightIdea" either about "works" or about how to "rightly divide the word of truth"!

I can't believe you speak disparagingly about the book of James, just because it contains verses on works that contradict your (erroneous) belief about faith and works! But then, I guess I can believe it because it poses a threat to your belief so the only thing you can do is either ignore the book of James outright or doubt its authenticity. Either way, I pity you.
 

RightIdea

New member
Re: Still no answers?

Re: Still no answers?

Originally posted by Kevin
Right Idea,

I have repsonded to your posts with plently of Biblical evidence to support my case. You dodge it. Until you pay me the respect of answering my questions and evidence, I'm not going to continue to play the game of "chase Rightidea around the merry go round without him adressing my arguments."

I've heard what you have said and provided evidence that shows the contrary. Address them please. If you don't, then I really don't have any reason to take your position seriously.
Kevin, are you seriously unaware that the post you are responding to with the above diatribe is quoting scripture?

Yes, those words are out of your Bible, from one of Paul's letters (which I highly recommend sometime, especially to Judaizers such as yourself).

1 Corinthians 6:12
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1 Corinthians 10:23
All things are lawful, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful, but not all things edify.


This idea is so important to Paul that he says it twice in his letter, four chapters apart. That's how much he wants you to get this through your head, Kevin. If all things are lawful, then you cannot be condemned by the law.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.


For against the fruits of the spirit, there is no law, Kevin. We obey Christ because we are saved. We aren't saved because we obey Christ. Two totally mutually exclusive things. Opposites. And one is truth, and the other is a false gospel.
 

c.moore

New member
hello kevin

Can you in your own words explain what is grace?

Do you live by the old testament rules of legalism, having to do all you can to be accepted by God , obey the laws in order to get God to love us, or choose us for His Kingdom?

When we accept Jesus in our hearts, and believe and get baptized does God still look at us as filthy sinners because all have sined like you said , or does he look at us through Jesus as His righteous children washed in the blood of Jesus?

What does these verses mean to you Ro:8:12: Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Ro:8:13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Ro:8:14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Ro:8:15: For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Ro:8:16: The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

The last question is what is these verse explaining about what laws not to have to obey?

Ga:5:16: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Ga:5:17: For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Ga:5:18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Ga:5:19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Ga:5:20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Ga:5:21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ga:5:22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Ga:5:23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Ga:5:24: And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Ga:5:25: If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Ga:5:26: Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

You always say we should obey should we obey this and walk in the spirit Kevin`, and are you obeying this ?

I am asking this because of the last post to me showed you are thinking we must do something to get God to love us , and we , must obey to qualify, or be accepted, and we , or I , or myself, ust obey every rule, and I must show, and I must prove and this is not the will of God that we do the work, Jesus has do it for us, made us righteous. you ,or I, or myself,me can work for salvation, but thanks for answering the questions.

God bless
 

Kevin

New member
Still Dodging...

Still Dodging...

RightIdea,

Again, I'm not going to answer your questions until you pay me the respect of addressing my arguments that you have continually ignored. Please answer them. I did not spend the time writing my arguments only to have them ignored. A debate is a two way conversation. I'm not going to continually chase you around, addressing your posts when you won't do the same courtesy to me.

If you are willing to examine my agruments and respond to them, I will respond to your aguments as well.

In your view, "commandment=law" and we are under NO law, therefore we are not under any commandments. I have shown you compelling Biblical evidence to show the fallacy of your assertion, and I ask that you address them. What say you?
 

HopeofGlory

New member
Just a few words on the subject!

Just a few words on the subject!

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: Ex. 19:5
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. Ex. 19:6
And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him. Ex. 19:7
And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes, Ex. 19:10

Water baptism was a ritual in the sense that is was a required act for religious benefit. Under the law this ordinance (required work) can clearly be seen in “old” testament rituals where the priest were made clean to receive the sacrifice. To say it was old testament simply means it was before the new testament for remission (Matt. 26:28) was given by Christ. This old testament rite was the declaration of John the Baptist (Mark 1:4) and it is the same as Peter's Pentecostal message (Acts 2:38) both were a “baptism of repentance for the remission of sins“.

In the ritual of sacrifice the priest were fully wet (not sprinkled) or "baptized" in water. This rite of priestly cleansing temporarily removed sin and was a preparatory work to receive the sacrifice. The priest would take of the sacrificial “blood” and "sprinkle" it on the people. The application of the blood granted forgiveness of the peoples sins without the need of washing in water. Water baptism immersion is not a sign of the blood being sprinkled and they are clearly two different elements in the same ritual.

The gospel of the kingdom beginning with John the Baptist (Matt 3:2) was a message to be given only to Israel as God’s chosen people. This circumcision only message prepared the nation of Israel as priests and Christ commanded it was not to be delivered to Gentiles.

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my (Mosaic) covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: Ex. 19:5 (KJV)
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. Ex. 19:6 (KJV)

The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Mark 1:3 (KJV)
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Mark 1:4 (KJV)

The message of John’s baptism was only to Israel and if they obeyed it they would become a kingdom of priest temporarily cleansed in water to receive the sacrificial blood of Christ for eternal remission. The application of the blood would be through the words of the new testament (Mat 26:28). Israel failed because of unbelief and God called Paul by the Spirit to deliver the message of Christ’s shed blood for eternal remission.

Christ Jesus preached the kingdom message and he chose the twelve to deliver it to Israel (the circumcision) but He instructed them to not go to the Gentiles.

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles (uncircumcision), and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: Matt. 10:5 (KJV)
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Matt. 10:6 (KJV)

Clearly the circumcision (Jewish) message Peter preached was not to be delivered to the uncircumcision (Gentiles)or was Jesus wrong?

After the cross the apostles are now commanded to ....Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mark 16:15 (KJV)

Why the change from.....Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: Matt. 10:5 (KJV)

Because righteousness before the cross was obedience to ordinances contained in the law and the new testament had no strength until after the death of Christ.

Gentiles were without the law (Rom. 2:14) but now they could receive remission through the new testament (Matt 26:28).

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom. 3:25
To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Rom. 3:26

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. Heb. 9:16 (KJV)
For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Heb. 9:17 (KJV)

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)

At this time the new testament for remission of sins is in force and it superceded the old Mosaic testament for remission in water baptism that was to be given only to Israel.

The cross removed the ordinance of water baptism for remission.....Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Col. 2:14 (KJV)


Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Heb. 6:1 (KJV)
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Heb. 6:2 (KJV)
And this will we do, if God permit. Heb. 6:3 (KJV)

Before the new testament sin remission also required endurance to the end. The new testament (Matt 26:28) with a better testimony (John 5:36) granted eternal life (John 6:54) and was only effectual after the cross (Heb. 9:17).

John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Mark 1:4

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28

Two witnesses! Matt 26:28 superceded Acts 2:38.

But I have a greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. John 5:36
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. John 5:37

Israel's understanding of water baptism was that it "washed away their sins" even after the cross.

And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there, Acts 22:12 (KJV)
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Acts 22:16 (KJV)

Peter's circumcision message for remission was not the new testament (Matt 26:28) and his message (Acts 2:38) was not meant to be delivered to uncircumcised Gentiles who were without the law. The apostles were teachings the same message after the cross (Acts. 2:38) as the Baptist was before the cross (Mark 1:4). Therefore the apostles at Pentecost did not teach (Matt. 26:28).

Christ's gave us the "NEW" testament in His blood "for" remission of sins not a new water baptism. This is a simple fact that can not be reasoned away with false doctrines of men. Some would have us believe in a new water baptism but they can not provide scriptures to prove this doctrine. Signs are a shadow of things to come and are of no use after the real things are manifested. To say we still need water baptism is no different than to say we still need circumcision of the flesh. Water baptism "for" remission of sins (old testament) was a mere shadow of faith in His shed blood for remission of sins (new testament). Others would have us believe water baptism is a sign of the applied blood of Christ but this is clearly not the case. This confusion is found in those who sprinkle instead of immerse in water because the high priest sprinkled when he applied the blood.

Israel was God's chosen people to deliver the message of His sacrificial blood for remission to the world. We will look in vain for that message at Pentecost.
Christ died for our sins and it is through the shedding of His blood that all who have faith in God’s witness are born again by the Spirit of Christ. The Pentecostal message of water baptism is void of the power of God that Christ “died for our sins” and through “faith in His blood” our sins are remitted. This bloodless gospel for remission fulfilled this prophetic scripture.....

Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. Isa. 60:15 (KJV)
Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. Isa. 60:16 (KJV)

God called Paul to apply the blood of our Sacrifice for remission and this message would be received freely by the Gentiles because they were without the law.

Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. Acts 13:46 (KJV)

Paul is the first man to deliver the new testament proclaiming righteousness without the ordinances (ritual of water baptism) of the law.

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Now through the new testament (Matt 26:28) their righteous obedience to ordinances of the law were no longer accepted and it was replaced by the righteousness of Christ by His obedience to the cross.

For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:19 (KJV)
Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: Rom. 5:20 (KJV)

Water baptism was obeyed "for" remission of sins under the law and it can not be argued to the contrary unless you choose to go against clear biblical teaching. "If" indeed faith in His shed blood in the "new" testament now gives remission of sins and His death done away with the law then we can conclude the "old" testament "for" remission of sins has indeed been superceded by the "new".

The death of Christ was not taught as the means "for" remission at Pentecost but obeying in water baptism "for" remission was commanded. The main point here is those at Pentecost had to be water baptized to be saved and that was a clear message....Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that OBEY him. Acts 5:32 (KJV)

Clearly two different messages for sin remission were preached! The circumcision message was only to Israel of the law and the uncircumcision to Gentiles and Jews without the law.

But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; Gal. 2:7 (KJV)
(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles Gal. 2:8 (KJV)

Jesus instructed the apostles to go to the world “after” the new testament for remission (Matt. 26:28) was given and He did not instruct them to WATER baptism.

There is only one baptism (Spirit) not two and through the practice of water baptism many are deceived and have accepted it for remission of sins and in this fact alone we must realize the error of man’s witness which is not God’s.

One Lord, one faith, one baptism, Eph. 4:5 (KJV)
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Eph. 4:6 (KJV)

A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed. Matt. 16:4 (KJV)

But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same veil (Mosaic) untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which veil is done away in Christ. 2 Cor. 3:14 (KJV)

Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. Heb. 10:9 (KJV)
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Heb. 10:10 (KJV)

Therefore if any man be IN CHRIST, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Cor. 5:17 (KJV)

Old things (old testament) are passed away and all things are new (new testament).

We know what is truth by the gospel that came forth from the very lips of Christ our Saviour.

For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. Matt. 26:28 (KJV)
 

Kevin

New member
c.moore,

Can you in your own words explain what is grace?

Sure. Grace is that which is freely given. When it comes to the grace of God and our salvation, it is the free gift of salvation through His Son Jesus Christ.

He blessed us with His grace by sending His only Son to die to die on the cross, that we may be saved. There is nothing that man could have done to earn this grace, this gift, the sending of His Son to die that we may have salvation. He did it because of His longsuffering, generosity, and tremendous love for us.

This is clearly defined in Romans 6:23

Romans 6:23
23) For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So again, the grace of God is salvation by Him sending His Son to die for us, that we may have eternal life.

Do you live by the old testament rules of legalism, having to do all you can to be accepted by God , obey the laws in order to get God to love us, or choose us for His Kingdom?

Um, no. I don't live by the Mosaic Law.

When we accept Jesus in our hearts, and believe and get baptized does God still look at us as filthy sinners because all have sined like you said , or does he look at us through Jesus as His righteous children washed in the blood of Jesus?

When we believe and are baptized for the remission of our sins, God does not look at us as sinners, no. That's why we get baptized - to put away our old man of sin and be alive to God through Jesus Christ (Romans 6:11). We are only alive to God if we die with Christ (which makes us free from sin - Romans 6:7). The only Biblical way to die with Christ is through baptism (Romans 6:4).

As it says in 2 Tim. 2:11, if we died with Him, we shall also live with Him. Again, baptism is the only Biblical way that we die with Christ.

What does these verses mean to you Ro:8:12: Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Ro:8:13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Ro:8:14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Ro:8:15: For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Ro:8:16: The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

What does this mean to me? It's spelled out in verse 13 - if we live by the flesh, we die. If we live by the Spirit, we live. The Bible speaks clearly of what it means to live by the flesh:

Galatians 5:19-21
19) Now the works of the flesh are clearly revealed, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lustfulness,
20) idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, fightings, jealousies, angers, rivalries, divisions, heresies,
21) envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revelings, and things like these; of which I tell you before, as I also said before, that they who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


Those who live by the Spirit do not live in the flesh, and what it means to live in the flesh is described above.

The last question is what is these verse explaining about what laws not to have to obey?

The law of sin - living in the flesh.

Ga:5:16: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Ga:5:17: For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Ga:5:18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Ga:5:19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Ga:5:20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Ga:5:21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ga:5:22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Ga:5:23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Ga:5:24: And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Ga:5:25: If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Ga:5:26: Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

You always say we should obey should we obey this and walk in the spirit Kevin`, and are you obeying this ?

I'm really not quite sure what you are asking here. What I've always said is that we are to obey the commandments of Christ, because that's how we know we are in Christ. Observe:

1 John 2:3-6
3) And by this we know that we have known Him, if we keep His commandments.
4) He who says, I have known Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5) But whoever keeps His Word, truly in this one the love of God is perfected. By this we know that we are in Him.
6) He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk even as He walked.


Look closely at verses 3 and 5. It clearly explains how we know whether or not we are in Christ - those who keep His commandments. So people who obey His commandments are in Christ, and are most certainly walking in the Spirit.

Yet, when I preach that we are to keep the commandments of Christ, people throw out verses about not being under any kind of law or commandments. The apostle John obviously disagrees with such people.

I am asking this because of the last post to me showed you are thinking we must do something to get God to love us , and we , must obey to qualify, or be accepted

First of all, God loves us ALL, which is why He desires all to make it to heaven. I've never said that we must do something to get God to love us. He loves us all - which is why He sent His Son do die for us, even though we are unworthy of such a generous gift. Praise be to God.

But what I do say is, yes, there are qualifications for salvation. If there weren't, then everybody would make it to heaven no matter what. That's just not going to happen.

Belief is one of those qualifications, and the most important one, because without belief in God, there is NO hope for that person.

But what I've been trying to get accross is that belief, if not acted upon, is useless. Observe:

Look closely at James 2:14 - It asks the question that is debated over and over, does faith alone save a person -

14) What does it profit, my brethren, is somebody says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

Reading the next few verse, the answer is clear to that question - faith without works is dead. Faith alone does not save. Evidence of this can be found in Matt. 25: 41-46. They were damned to hell because of their lack of good works towards mankind. They had faith, for they addressed Him as Lord, but they didn't obey Christ's command to love one another (1 John 3:23). If they had truly loved one another, they would have ministered to those people... but they didn't. Their faith profited them nothing, because they didn't obey Christ.

This is further proof of what the apsostle John said in 1 John 2:3-5, that we know we are in Christ if we obey His commandments. Those people in Matt. 25:41-46 obviously didn't obey His commandments, and therefore they were not in Christ, and consequently, they were thrown into hell.

In Acts 2, when Peter preached to the Jews, what good would their belief be if they didn't do as Peter commanded when they asked what they must do to be saved? Peter told them to repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins. What if they just believed, and didn't obey the commandments of Christ? What would their belief profit them? Faith without works is dead. Simple as that.

If we have true faith in Christ, it will produce obedience, and it is those who obey Him who will be SAVED (Heb. 5:9). This is the faith that saves - the faith that obeys, not the faith that is dead unto itself.

We are saved by grace through faith, but if that faith doesn't produce obedience to His commandments, then we are NOT in Christ (1 John 2:3-5). Again, the faith that saves is the faith that obeys, which fulfills the verse that says we are saved by grace through faith.

We are not saved by works, because there is nothing that man could ever do to "earn" what God did for us: sending His Son to die for us that we may have salavation (Rom. 6:23). God didn't have to send His Son, but He did, and there's NO way we could have earned that, which is His grace to us. All that God requires of us is to accept Him by our faith in His Son, but the faith spoken of here is the faith that produces obedience. That's true faith in the eyes of God, and again it by obeying Christ's commandments that we know whether or not we are in Christ.

Works perfects our faith and justifies us in eyes of God along with our faith. Proof? Here:

James 2:22-24
22) Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23) And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. And he was called the friend of God.
24) You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.


Conclusion?

James 2:26
26) For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Dead faith won't save anybody.

but thanks for answering the questions

Sure, I just hope that my answers produces fruit. :)
 
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RightIdea

New member
Re: Still Dodging...

Re: Still Dodging...

Originally posted by Kevin
RightIdea,

Again, I'm not going to answer your questions until you pay me the respect of addressing my arguments that you have continually ignored. Please answer them. I did not spend the time writing my arguments only to have them ignored. A debate is a two way conversation. I'm not going to continually chase you around, addressing your posts when you won't do the same courtesy to me.

If you are willing to examine my agruments and respond to them, I will respond to your aguments as well.

In your view, "commandment=law" and we are under NO law, therefore we are not under any commandments. I have shown you compelling Biblical evidence to show the fallacy of your assertion, and I ask that you address them. What say you?
You tell me I'm going to Hell, you ignore the scripture I have quoted, and then you have the audacity to tell me you're not going to respond to me until I start respecting you? I HAVE directly responded to you, with scripture, and YOU ignore that and accuse me of that which you're guilty of. And then insist I treat you with respect. You'll stop responding? I'll save you the trouble. If this is how you carry on a debate here at TOL, I can see it's not even edifying to continue the conversation. After all, what value is there for you to debate theology with a non-Christian like myself? Even I agree it's not edifying to debate theology with unbelievers.

Take care, and God bless, my brother.
 

HopeofGlory

New member
Theology fails when it attempts to blend two clearly defined gospels into one, holding on to the old signs and shadows that were done away with in Christ. The old corrupts the new and leaves them completely confused so they must spiritualize the literal meaning of scripture. However any theology with a doctrine of works that trust the old signs are still effectual is nothing short of heretical. There are divisions in God’s word and we must study to show ourselves approved (2 Tim. 2:15).
Dispensationalism identifies the new but fails trying to pinpoint a clear cut change in the gospel message and falsely assumes that Paul is the pivotal point of that change. Dispensational theology gives credit to Paul as being the first to teach that Christ died for our sins when it is clearly evident Christ revealed it in the new testament (Matt 26:28) and the first salvific message not of works was reveal by Christ with these words referring to the new testament.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63 (KJV)

Acts is a historic account of man’s progressive understanding of the “new” testament for remission of sins that Christ first delivered. I agree that there are dispensations as to different requirements to please God but Christ was the first to reveal His gospel in Matthew 26:28 and these words of Christ were revealed progressively to man. The best method of understanding is when a man seeks to know God his Saviour through the words Jesus spoke and has no prior doctrine for this man is not offended but receives the word of God freely.
Salvation is not in knowledge of doctrines but it is received by sinners who are without hope and understand that there is nothing they can do of themselves to be saved. This hopeless sinner needs only the simplicity of the gospel which is Christ died for his sins and if he truly believes then he is accepted by a loving God. I can testify this is true for I was once without hope and this simple truth was all I needed. I do not need doctrinal proof of my relationship with my Saviour because He has proven Himself to me personally without any doctrine. Knowing myself and knowing His acceptance of me defines the doctrine. A hopeless sinner will never have to be hopeless again when he has faith in Christ and Him only. When we stand before God we must be perfect without one speck of sin to be accepted and to obtain this perfection we must be in Christ the One who finished the work of salvation when He offered Himself as a spotless sacrifice for us. It is sad when we concern ourselves with proving our doctrines while the lost are without hope and all they need is the simplicity of the Gospel without the confusion of doctrine. My doctrinal beliefs may not be perfect but the simple fact of it is I don't need them because my hope is not in doctrine. My hope is in Christ Jesus.

The worldly church is a building made with hands and has many members but the true church are earthen vessels in which Christ lives and are not of this world.

The confusion is clear when the word is not rightly divided! At Pentecost believers had to be water baptized in order to be saved but many today believe it was only a sign of Spirit baptism to come but they do not understand that it was the effectual baptism for remission of sins at Pentecost. Even though it "was" effectual it was also corruptible in the sense that it was not eternal remission and required endurance and obedience to the end. This effectual old testament rite is to be done away with or man will accept it as the true baptism. Those at Pentecost believed their obedience in water baptism remitted their sins not the blood of Christ thus they did not receive eternal remission. We must reject water baptism as a sign or a ritual of obedience for remission as it clearly was at Pentecost.

Those through their acceptance of a corruptible message "for" remission have to believe in their "works" for salvation and this is proven in their denial of security in eternal life. The blood of Christ when applied for remission is not corruptible and does not fade away. Their confusion is understandable because they have received the Peterine doctrine of water baptism at Pentecost for remission. They choose to condemn those of us who reject water baptism by saying if you’re not baptized you’re not saved. We are baptized by one Spirit into the body of Christ and there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.

Before the cross salvation was not eternal. Christ died to deliver the eternal message of His blood in the NEW testament. This new testament replaced the old testament "for" remission. If the old is not done away with it will corrupt the new.

Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 1 Cor. 5:6
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 1 Cor. 5:7
 

Kevin

New member
You've answered eh?

You've answered eh?

RightIdea,

You tell me I'm going to Hell

Lie. Where did I say this? Until you die, where you spend eternity is up to you. I never said you were going anywhere.

you ignore the scripture I have quoted

This is not a one-sided debate. I will respond to your posts if you adress mine.

I HAVE directly responded to you, with scripture

Oh really? Here's some of the questions and points that I've asked that you have NOT answered:

  • 1 John 3:4
    4) Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness, for sin is lawlessness.

    You say that we are not under ANY law whatsoever, which means we are in a state of lawlessness, which is sin as pointed out above.

    Where have you answered/addressed this?

  • Tell me, do you partake of the Eucharist? If you do, why do you think that is? Answer: becuase Christ commanded that we do so. It was commanded in Luke 22:19, and Christ told the apostles in the Great Commission (Matt. 28: 19-20) to teach new disciples to observe all things that He commanded the apsotles, which certainly includes the Eucharist. That's why the Eucharist is observed, because Christ commanded it! If you partake of it, your are obeying a COMMANDMENT.

    Where have you answered/addressed this?

  • Did Paul support this commandment of the Eucharist? You bet he did. In fact, Paul, in 1 Cor. 23-29 rebuked the Corinthians for partaking of the Eucharist in an improper manner. Verse 23 starts out saying "For I received from the Lord that which I also deliver to you...". What did Paul receive? A Commandment from the Lord to eat of His body and drink of His blood.

    Paul supported the observing of a COMMANDMENT - the Eucharist. And remember you say that "commandment=law" and we are under NO law. Was Paul confused by supporting this COMMANDMENT WHICH HE RECIEVED?

    Where have you answered/addressed this?

  • 1 John 3:23 states:
    23) And this is His commandment: tha we should believe on the name of the His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us such COMMANDMENT.

    Are we to ignore the "commandment" of believing on the name o the Son of God? After all, it's a "commandment" and to you "commandment=law" and we aren't under ANY law.

    So are we not to believe on the name of the Son of God, as we are COMMANDED to do so? Well?
    Are we to love one another, as Christ gave such COMMANDMENT? Well?

    Where have you answered/addressed this?

  • After Christ was crucified, he told those same apostles to go out into ALL NATIONS, not just isreal, and preach the word, baptizing them, and teaching believers to observe all things He commanded of the Apostles (Matt 28:19-20). ALL NATIONS would certainly include the Gentile nations that Paul preached to. It's the SAME gospel preached to ALL nations, which kills your dispy theory.

    Where have you answered/addressed this?

  • Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him (Heb. 5:9). How can you obey Christ without keeping His commandments?!

    Where have you answered/addressed this?

and YOU ignore that and accuse me of that which you're guilty of.

I've already explained my position. This is not a one-sided debate. Answer my points and I will answer yours. You say you have answered me, but looking at the list above, where have you address them?

And then insist I treat you with respect. You'll stop responding? I'll save you the trouble.

Suite yourself. Still doesn't change the fact that you've dodged my points and questions.

If this is how you carry on a debate here at TOL, I can see it's not even edifying to continue the conversation.

Uh, yes... when I present evidence, I do expect my opponent to address my agruments. Otherwise, it would hardly be considered a debate.

After all, what value is there for you to debate theology with a non-Christian like myself?

That's like saying "What's the use of a Christian going out and preaching the gospel to the lost." There's plenty of value, but only for those who have ears to hear.

Even I agree it's not edifying to debate theology with unbelievers.

It all depends on their willingness to listen. If they receive the gospel, GREAT! If not, shake the dust off and move on... hopefully at some point in their life what you planted may take root.

Take care, RightIdea. God bless you.
 

RightIdea

New member
The only thing I'll respond to is your refusal to confess you said I'm going to Hell.

You preach a false gospel that a person must be baptized in water to have eternal life.

I have deliberately chosen to not be baptized in such a way, for I have been baptized in the Holy Spirit, and He works in my life in tangible ways on a daily basis, and I know I have eternal life.

Ergo, you have said I am going to Hell for my refusal to be baptized.

If you are willing to lie about something as simple as that, this is just another reason to end our discussion.
 

Kevin

New member
It's sad that it's come to this...

It's sad that it's come to this...

RightIdea,

The only thing I'll respond to is your refusal to confess you said I'm going to Hell.

You preach a false gospel that a person must be baptized in water to have eternal life.

I have deliberately chosen to not be baptized in such a way, for I have been baptized in the Holy Spirit, and He works in my life in tangible ways on a daily basis, and I know I have eternal life.

Ergo, you have said I am going to Hell for my refusal to be baptized.

You put words in my mouth by saying that I said you are going to Hell. I never said that. Until you show me otherwise, you accusation is simply untrue. As I've said before, while a person lives, they decide where they will spend eternity. If a person is in darkness, can they not turn to the light? Yes! So how can anybody tell another person where they are going, unless they can predict the future, which I cannot.

If you are willing to lie about something as simple as that, this is just another reason to end our discussion.

Where did I say you are going to hell? Don't put words in my mouth. I don't know where you are going because I don't know the future of your life. All I can do is try to point out error when it presents itself, this is not a sentence. Stop accusing me of a lie that I haven't commited.

I noticed that you didn't address my evidence that you haven't responded to my questions and points. Your silence on this matter speaks for itself - you haven't answered them, despite your claim that you have.

You claim to be a truth seeker, but fail respond to evidence that would show that you are in error. This doesn't sound like a characteristic of one who is a truth seeker. A truth seeker wouldn't dogde questions and arguments, as you have.

Friend, I'm sorry that this has turned into what it has.

God bless you, and I hope there are no hard feelings between us. It is not my intention to insult you. All I'm trying to get are some answers, and I'm not getting them. Peace be to you. :up:
 
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c.moore

New member
Hello kevin

i see you think we have to qualify to be saved , or have salvation , and we have to earn our salvation according to our obedienece.

but let take a look at what Grace is not , and I have copied this from somebody else but they put it in good words in also what I believe and teach others about grace , and faith without working to get salvation.

I know you mention that not every one can be saved , but remember it is a matter of recieving , and accepting the good new gospel of Christ , and not everybody wants anything to do with Christ , so the work is really believing , and working on trusting in the Lord Jesus , and working to lean on Him more as ourselves, and you can believe me this is also work, but not good works will give us salvation including baptisms, circumcissions, or obedience, but those who believe will get rewards.

Take a look at this Kevin , and many others who are struggling to work for salvation , or have stress try on your own to obey the Lord.

What Grace Is Not

Before we notice what grace IS in the New Testament, we need to see two things that grace is NOT. Both these errors are popularly taught and believed today. Sometimes one of them leads to the other. Sometimes people who have been taught one, and learned better, go so far from that error that they fall into the other extreme which is also erroneous. Let us see, then, two erroneous ideas about God's grace -- and see by the word of God that neither is true or worthy of our confidence, but that both deserve only to be rejected and warned against. These two erroneous ideas about grace relate to the two eternal principles we have already noticed. One of them fails to take into account what we have seen about God. The other does not deal with the truth we have observed about ourselves. These are the twin errors of LICENSE and LEGALISM.
Grace Is Not License
In the first place, grace is not license! The doctrine of "license" says, in effect: "Ignore God's law and count on his grace." This doctrine implies that our attitude and actions toward God do not matter at all -- that we can flagrantly live in knowing and willful rebellion against God if we wish --and that somehow God's grace will take care of anyway when we face God in judgment. There are those today, and were in New Testament times, who taught LICENSE in the name of grace. But Scripture plainly teaches that grace is not license.
License is a perversion of God's grace. It denies what we have seen already about God: that he hates sin and always punishes it. This error ignores God's just demand for a sinless life. It perverts the true grace of God. It is wrong, and always has been. License is not grace, because license does not take into account the eternal principle which grows out of God's very nature: God demands a sinless life and always punishes sin with death.
Let us notice the New Testament evidence of three writers which proves beyond the shadow of any reasonable doubt that LICENSE is not the true grace of God. Other Scriptures could be found along this same line. But these will be enough to clearly demonstrate to any honest person that the grace of God is not LICENSE. Grace does not mean "do as you please and somehow God will forgive everything."
The first witness is the Apostle Paul. When Paul preached on grace, sometimes his critics accused him of preaching license. He answers this charge very clearly in his epistle to the Romans. Paul speaks there of God's grace to man in these words:
For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. And the law came in that the transgression might increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Rom. 5:19-21) .
In these verses Paul magnifies the grace of God. As much as Adam did for harm to the human race -- and Paul affirms more about that than we sometimes have wished to acknowledge -- Christ did so much more for mankind by His own life of obedience to God. Where sin increased, Paul says, grace increased even more! Satan could not have the last word! His most horrible evil is overshadowed entirely by God's kindness to sinners through Jesus Christ.
Some of those who heard Paul preach these things responded by accusing him of teaching license. They said that his teaching would encourage people to go ahead and sin, counting on God's grace to save them. Paul responded to this charge in the very next verses.
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? . . . Knowing this, that our old self was crucified with him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin. . . . Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts (Rom. 6:1, 2, 6, 12).
Grace does not mean LICENSE! Grace is NOT permission to go on sinning. Anyone who says that it is, is wrong -- according to the Apostle Paul in these verses. But this is not all. The advocates of LICENSE -- whether they be indulgent "church members" who want to do as they please, advocates of a so-called "new morality" who say that all the gates are now open for unbridled satisfaction of every desire of body and mind, or libertines who preach as gospel a doctrine of "do as you please and God will overlook it all somehow" -- are all WRONG! Grace is not license.
If grace were license, we should expect the Bible to say something like this: "The grace of God has appeared, teaching us to give in to every desire, to live a riotous, indulgent and self-satisfying life while we have opportunity." Those who are familiar with Scripture know that it says almost exactly the opposite. Paul wrote to younger preacher Titus:
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires, and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous for good deeds. These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you (Tit. 2:11-15).
Grace is not license.
To Paul's testimony we can now add the words of the Apostle Peter. His second general epistle was written for the express purpose of warning in advance of false teachers who would scoff at Christ's promised coming and would advocate lustful living now (2 Pet. 3:1-4). In response to these evil men, Peter admonishes saints to live holy lives -- to be ready for the Lord's return. Listen to his words:
Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness (2 Pet. 3:11).
Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by him in peace, spotless and blameless (v. 14).
You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness (v. 17).
Peter warns against the doctrine of license. In direct contrast to it, he admonishes in verse 18:
But grow in the GRACE and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
Grace is not "do as you please." It is not license. It is not divine tolerance of sin. License denies the fundamental truth of God's holy nature. It ignores the fact that He punishes sin and that the wages of sin is always death. No doctrine of the true grace of God can conclude that grace is simply license. But we have another witness.
Jude, the half-brother of the Lord, began to write a joyful epistle celebrating salvation in Jesus. Because of some who were teaching license, however, he felt compelled to change his plan, writing instead to warn believers against those perverters of grace.
Beloved, while I was making every effort to write to you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you content earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, . . . ungodly men who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ (Jude 3-4).
His epistle closes with a warning and an exhortation.
But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, that they were saying to you, "In the last time there shall be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts" (Jude 17-18).
But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith; praying in the Holy Spirit; keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life (Jude 20-21).
Grace is not license. License is a perversion of grace It fails to take into account the fundamental and eternal nature of God. It ignores the fact that He hates sin, that sin must be punished, and that the wages of sin is death. Paul warns against license in the name of grace. Peter warns against the same error. Jude does the same. Grace is not "do as you please." License is a perversion of the true grace of God.
But there is another error which is sometimes preached in the name of grace, an error which is the opposite extreme to license. That other false extreme is legalism.
Grace Is Not Legalism
Grace is not legalism. A word should be said about this term, because it is frequently misused and abused. Legalism does not mean trying to please God. It is not legalistic to seek to do God's will as accurately and exactly as possible. Trying to strictly obey God's commands does not make one a legalist. An obedient and scrupulous person might be a legalist or might not be. But the desire or attempt to please God precisely is not the determining factor.
Legalism is not law-keeping, but law-depending. It is not the idea of doing God's will and obeying his commands but of trusting in one's performance for salvation. One falls prey to legalism who supposes that he or she will be saved because of a personal record of obedience that is pleasing to God. Just as license ignores and fails to reckon with the fact that God, by nature, hates and punishes sin, so legalism ignores and fails to reckon with the fact that fallen human beings, which includes us all, are sinners. If the Gentiles were especially prone to the error of license, the Jews seem to have been especially prone to the other error of legalism.
According to those who have studied Jewish thought of the first century, the ordinary rabbi of Jesus' day would have said that he strongly believed in the grace of God. But he would have described it something like this. God's grace, the rabbi might have said, means that God gave us his Law. Of all nations on earth, we Jews alone were given this Law. If we keep it, God will bless us. If we do not, he will punish us. But we have God's grace because we have his Law.
What this rabbi would have failed to consider -- and what many today fail to see as well -- is that neither the Jew then nor anyone today ever does keep God's law perfectly. Legalism says in effect, "keep the rules perfectly and be saved; good luck!" But legalism fails to deal with the eternal principle that fallen humans do NOT keep the rules perfectly! We are sinners, you and I, and everyone else we know. Since Adam, we have been. We are now. Left to ourselves, we always will be. Grace is not simply God giving us his laws and saying, "Keep the rules and be saved -- good luck!"
Just as LICENSE ignores the nature of GOD, so LEGALISM ignores our own nature. No one could EVER be saved by that kind of "grace." No man or woman has ever kept the rules perfectly -- either before becoming a Christian or after --except Jesus Christ. Legalism FRUSTRATES the true grace of God and ignores fallen human nature.
The rabbi might respond to what I have just said by saying, "Oh, I realize that we do not keep all the rules, and that we do not keep the rules perfectly. But God's grace will surely overlook our shortcomings. For we do keep the IMPORTANT rules -- and just look at the other nations of the world!" Some today would say about the same thing. In reality, however, this statement begs the question. It misses the whole point.
We are agreed that we have not kept the rules right. But if grace is no more than legalism ("Here are the rules; keep them and be saved -- good luck!"), no one can be saved. For not one of our race, except Jesus Christ, has kept the rules perfectly -- which is but another way of saying that we have not "kept" them at all. And if salvation is by LAW, there is no room for grace. One either DESERVES to be saved or does NOT DESERVE salvation. Salvation is either EARNED or it is an undeserved GIFT -- but it is not both those things.
Legalism says that we will be saved because we have kept the rules -- because we have earned God's approval. Oh, it will not come right out and say that we earn it -- that would be too obviously wrong. It makes excuses for our shortcomings, it rationalizes our mistakes and errors, it talks all around the matter. It picks out certain rules and says that they are, after all, the IMPORTANT ones -- it makes all kind of maneuvers. But in the end legalism says: "Here are the rules. Keep them and be saved. Good luck!" Grace is not legalism. Legalism ignores our true fallen nature. No one can be saved by keeping the rules because not one of us ever does that. The grace of God is something else.
Scripture warns against LEGALISM as strongly and clearly as it warns against LICENSE. When certain Judean Christians went to the young church in Antioch and began to teach salvation on the basis of law-keeping (in that instance, the Law of Moses), the apostles and elders met together in Jerusalem to settle the matter. It was almost inevitable that a showdown would come in the early church on this matter.
Peter was one spokesman in the Jerusalem assembly. His answer to the legalists highlighted the same truth we have been talking about: the nature of man -- the fact that we are sinners, that we have never kept the rules perfectly and that any hope of salvation on the basis of our own performance is doomed from the very start.
Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we are saved through the GRACE OF THE LORD JESUS, in the same way as they also are(Acts 15:10-11).
The legalists had said that salvation depended on people properly keeping God's law (Acts 15:1). Peter, speaking for the Holy Spirit, said that salvation -- for Jew or Gentile -- depends instead on the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. God had cleansed the hearts of both Jewish and Gentile Christians by faith. Salvation began on this basis, said Peter, and it will continue on the same basis. To bind on Gentile Christians the burden of law-keeping as a BASIS for acceptance by God is to tempt God and to demand the IMPOSSIBLE from the saints. Our fathers could not do it, Peter said. We could not do it. And Gentile Christians cannot do it either. We all must look to the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation -- we cannot expect to find it through our own perfect performance or our own record of law-keeping.
Though Peter had stood firm on this occasion, even he was to play the hypocrite under different circumstances because of the pressures of party-men from Jerusalem. At Antioch, Peter was eating with the Gentile saints --accepting them fully as brethren in the Lord, worthy of sharing in the common life. But when certain men came down from Jerusalem, Peter was intimidated by their presence and did not continue to eat with the non-Jewish Christians. This was not merely racial discrimination in a social sense (though it was also that, and was wrong), but was based on the thinking of some Jews that the Gentiles were not really accepted by God because they did not keep the Law of Moses.
Paul rebuked Peter to his face for this, and said that he was not walking according to the truth of the gospel (Gal. 2:11-14). In writing to the Galatians, Paul relates some of his remarks to Peter on that occasion.
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of law (Paul literally says), but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of law; since by the works of law shall no flesh be justified (Gal. 2:16).
Salvation cannot come by our own law-keeping. Paul says, "by the works of law shall no flesh be justified." It is not that law is bad -- the Law of Moses was GOD'S law. It was holy and just and good. It was perfect for its purpose. But the Law of Moses could not SAVE for the same reason that no list of rules can save. Rules can only tell WHAT GOD WANTS from his human creatures. For one to be saved on the basis of rules (or law-keeping), one must keep them all and keep them perfectly. And that is just what we have always failed to do.
What Paul says in the verse we noticed had special reference to the Law of Moses. Peter's remarks in Acts 15 had special reference to the Law of Moses, too. But the principle is the same with any law: we cannot be saved on the basis of law-keeping because we never do keep law perfectly. It is a cold, hard fact that we always come short of God's perfect standard. This is undeniable reality -- stated in God's word and verified by all human experience. We are sinners, and even when we sincerely try to do right we do not consistently do what God wants us to do. Paul talks about this very problem in Romans, chapter seven. Legalism is not grace. God does NOT simply give a list of rules in the New Testament and say: "Here are the rules. Keep them and be saved. Good luck!"
Scripture is very plain along this line. The law -- any law -- is weak through the flesh (see Rom. 8:3). That is, no one ever keeps law perfectly, and therefore no one can ever be saved by law. The weakness of the Old Testament was not in the Law of Moses. It was ordained by angels and given by God Himself (Gal. 3:19). Indeed:
If a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe (Gal. 3:21-22).
No, these words do not apply just to the Law of Moses. If ANY law could have given life, Paul says, surely the Law of Moses could. But even it could not. The law was not bad -- the people were. It is impossible -- because of the way we sinful humans are and always have been -- for law to save. God's grace is not just giving a law which we can keep and be saved. If that is all the New Testament brings it is no better than the Old. We still sins. Sinners must die. Law cannot save. If a law could have been given, Paul says, which could give life, surely it would have been the Law of Moses. But -- he continues -- Scripture has shut up all mankind under the guilt of sin instead. Law can not save.
Grace is not LICENSE. License says "do as you please and God will overlook it." That perverts the grace of God. It ignores the fundamental fact of God's nature, that He is holy and always punishes sin with death.
Grace is not LEGALISM. Legalism says "here are the rules; keep them and be saved -- good luck!" Legalism frustrates the true grace of God. It ignores the fundamental fact of our nature, that we are weak in the flesh and always sin. We never keep the rules perfectly.
How, then, is anyone to be saved? How can we harmonize God's holy nature on the one hand, with our weakness on the other -- and still have anyone enjoy the favor of God? If grace is not LICENSE, if it is not LEGALISM, what is it? Scripture answers this question very clearly, and we will turn to that answer now.



God bless you Kevin:)
 
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c.moore

New member
Hello Kevin

Here is part 2

Please i hope you get the understanding of Grace.

Next]
[Contents]
What Grace Is
The true grace of God is God's work in His Son Jesus Christ. We have an indication of this in John 1:17.
For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.
This does not mean that there was no grace under Moses, or that there was no truth under Moses. Nor does it mean that there is no law under Jesus Christ. We have already seen that grace is not license. Paul says that he was not without law to God, but under the law of Christ (1 Cor. 9:21).
Yet in some way, John is contrasting law -- as characteristic of the Old system -- to grace -- as characteristic of Jesus Christ. What is God's true grace? It came by Jesus Christ. In some sense, it is peculiar to Jesus Christ and his work. Grace will be found in relation to the Son of God himself --the Son who became flesh and dwelt among us. He was full of grace and truth (John 1:14).
Peter says that it was prophesied in advance that Christ would bring this grace to mankind, and that this grace would be our salvation.
As to this SALVATION, the PROPHETS who prophesied of THE GRACE THAT WOULD COME TO YOU made careful search and inquiry, seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow (1 Pet. 1:10-11).
God's true grace would come by Jesus Christ. The prophets had an inkling of this, but they did not see it clearly. John says that grace did come by Jesus Christ, who was God in human flesh. Peter says that the Spirit of Christ testified to the prophets of someone, at some time, who would bring grace to God's people -- grace that would result in their salvation, or right standing with God. We know, looking back, that they spoke of Christ. They did not know the details but "made careful search and inquiry" as to who this Savior was and when he would come.
Jesus Became A Man
How did God's grace involve Christ? What was involved in God's grace? It visibly began when God became incarnate to become a man in Jesus Christ. Paul says:
For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, that you through his poverty might become rich (2 Cor. 8:9) .
Grace began when Jesus left heaven -- with all its riches -- to become a man. He became poor FOR OUR SAKE, that we might become RICH. Grace means, in the first place, that God became a man in the person of Jesus Christ. He became one of us. Jesus came for the purpose of keeping God's will perfectly in a human body -- that is why he was given a body in the first place.
Therefore, when he comes into the world, he says, "Sacrifice and offering thou hadst not desired, but a body thou hast prepared for me. In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast taken no pleasure. Then I said [putting these words in the mouth of Jesus], `Behold I have come' (in the roll of the book it is written of me), `to DO THY WILL, O GOD'" (Heb. 10:5-7).
God had never wanted animal sacrifices or sin offerings above all else. He had simply wanted people to carry out his will! But even the most pious and faithful Jew had always failed to do God's will (because that is what we have seen to be the universal state of fallen humans), and had to offer sacrifices for sin instead. Jesus did not come to offer more animal sacrifices. He came to do what God had always wanted but what no person had ever yet done: TO DO THE WILL OF GOD! As a MAN, He would do what NO OTHER had done. God gave Jesus a body for that purpose. He came to do the will of God. Not only that, He DID the will of God perfectly in his human body. Jesus then offered that body for OUR sins.
We have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. . . . For by one offering he has perfected for all time [or completely] those who are sanctified (Heb. 10:10, 14).
The grace of God means -- first -- that Jesus became a man. He was one of us. As a man he kept God's will perfectly. Then he offered his body to God -- he presented to God what God had always wanted -- a human life perfectly in accord with his will for man. Grace means, in the second place, that Jesus died for sins -- though he himself had none.
Jesus Swapped Places With Us
In dying when he personally had never sinned, Jesus paid the price for OUR sins -- and those of every person who will finally be saved throughout all the world! Remember our two eternal principles: God demands death for sin; fallen humans always sin. Here we see how the two truths are reconciled for our salvation. Jesus died for our sins! HE TOOK OUR PLACE. God does not overlook sin -- a monumental price is paid for it -- the perfect life of the Son of God! The only man who ever did what God wanted died for those who never had. Here is the grace of God! It is not a cheap grace -- it cost the life of the Son of God. He died in our place.
Paul tells us this same thing in Second Corinthians, chapter five:
God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and he has committed to us the word of reconciliation. . . . He made him who knew no sin [Jesus Christ] to BE SIN ON OUR BEHALF, that we might become THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD in him. And working together with him, we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain (2 Cor. 5:19-6:1).
This story becomes more wondrous all the time! Jesus not only took OUR place; He gives us HIS. He was made SIN for us, that we might be made THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD in him. The grace of God is that Jesus became a man -- a representative man who took our place. In a human body, Jesus lived a perfect life which God counts for us, then died the death which, for our sins, we deserved to die.
Peter tells us this in other words:
He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by his wounds you were healed (1 Pet. 2:24).
Jesus did not stay in the grave. God raised him from the dead -- and that, too, was for our sake!
Now not for [Abraham's] sake only was it written, that "[his faith] was reckoned to him [for righteousness]," but for our sake also, to whom [faith] will be reckoned, as those who believe in him that raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, him who was delivered up because of OUR transgressions, and was raised because of OUR justification. Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into THIS GRACE IN WHICH WE STAND; and we exult in hope of the glory of God (Rom. 4:23-5:2).
Jesus died for our sins. If God did not have to deal with our sins, Jesus would not have died. If we ever wonder whether we are sinners, we need look only at the cross of Jesus Christ and we see that we are. He was on that cross "because of our transgressions."
But Jesus was raised again "because of our justification." His resurrection demonstrated to the entire watching universe that God loves sinners and that, in Jesus, he has saved those who do not reject his grace, those of every nation and time and place in whom God sees the faith of Abraham. If we ever wonder whether we are forgiven, we need look only by faith at that empty tomb where Jesus was once buried. If we think of Jesus' death as the payment for our sins, we may also think of Jesus' resurrection as God's guaranteed and irrevocable receipt.
Here is the grace of God! It is a great swap-out! It comes through Jesus Christ. In Jesus of Nazareth, the God of the universe became man -- made in the likeness of man -- came to be like sinful flesh. He was actually and really one of us, though he was still deity. But, unlike us, Jesus did not sin. Instead he did the will of God perfectly in his human body. Then the only sinless man who ever lived died a cruel death for sinners like you and me who will never deserve anything else than death.
Here is the grace of God. And here is why JESUS CHRIST is the very heart and soul, the center and circumference, of the New Testament. He is the author and finisher of our faith. He is the alpha and the omega. He is the beginning and the end. He is the first and the last. He is our peace, our justification, our holiness. We owe everything to Him.
Grace Is Received By True Faith
Paul says in Romans, chapter five, that we are justified by faith (v. 1). Faith means trusting God to love us, because of what he did in Jesus Christ, and entrusting ourselves wholeheartedly to that divine love. Salvation is by grace -- we do not deserve God's favor toward us and we can never earn it. We access this grace by faith, which means that we must always look outside ourselves for our salvation (2 Tim. 1:12).
We cannot perform the work which results in our salvation, for Jesus has already done that, once for all time. We cannot add to that finished work, or improve on it. We can only trust God to be gracious to us as he promises in Christ. If we picture grace as the room of God's favor, we may think of faith as the door into that room (Rom. 5:1-2).
God accepts us because of Christ's work on our behalf. We enjoy that grace by accepting it as fact, trusting it as sufficient, and throwing ourselves on it in total and eternal abandon, to become servants of righteousness and true holiness in Christ. We do not earn God's favor. We can not ever please Him enough to be given His blessings. We certainly could never pay for our own sins and be saved. But in Christ God has brought together the justice that is his nature and the weakness that is ours: Christ became a man and took our place.
God's grace deals with the weakness of our flesh because salvation does not depend on our weak flesh -- Jesus has earned it for us already! It also takes into account God's holiness, because sin is punished -- by the death of God's sinless Son! And so Paul can say to the Ephesian Christians:
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast (Eph. 2:8-9).
License perverts grace, and does not satisfy God's requirement of perfect obedience to his will. Legalism thwarts and frustrates God's grace, and does not provide for the weakness of fallen humankind. Salvation by grace -- true grace in Jesus Christ -- reckons with God's holiness and with our sinfulness and weakness. The perfect, finished work of Jesus Christ satisfies God's holiness and provides for our sinfulness. In Jesus Christ, the holy God accepts and forgives his sinful human creatures (Eph. 1:7).
One With Christ
We are saved because we are one with Christ -- and he has both offered a perfect life and died for our sins. We are one with Christ on the basis of faith, in the beginning and throughout life. True faith will seek to please him. Yet it is not legalism. There is a vast difference between law-keeping and law-depending. We will want to do God's will, yet we never will trust in our own performance for our salvation. We glory only in the cross of Christ.
Any system, any concept of Christianity, any "ism," any movement, which makes salvation dependent on our own ability to please God destroys and invalidates the work of Christ. If we could have been saved because of our own performance then Christ died in vain. If people could be saved by keeping the rules, Christ could have stayed in heaven -- God's people had possessed perfect rules for centuries. The weakness of the Old Testament was the weakness of man. That is the same weakness of any system which depends on us.
It is one thing to seek God's will in a matter because we love him and want to please him. It is another thing altogether to approach that same matter with the idea that our salvation depends on our own good performance or merit. This attitude is legalism, and it will always lead to pride (insofar as we are successful) or to despair and hopelessness (insofar as we fail).
It is right and proper to seek to please God as thoroughly and exactly and precisely as possible. Any true believer will want to do that, and anyone who does not want to do that is not a true believer. But it is a far different matter to create a system, to formulate a creed, or to devise an elaborate set of rules, and then DEPEND ON OUR OWN KEEPING OF THOSE THINGS FOR OUR SALVATION.
Let us seek to please God. That is what true faith will always do. Let us ask God for forgiveness when we fall. That is what true faith will always do. Let us rejoice in the work of Christ on our behalf. Let us glory in the cross of Christ. Let us say -- first, last, and always -- "God, be merciful to me a sinner!" And -- in Christ -- we know that he always will!
I have written to you briefly, exhorting and testifying that THIS IS THE TRUE GRACE OF GOD. Stand firm in it! . . . Peace be to you all who are in Christ (1 Pet. 5:12, 14).
A Personal Question
Are YOU standing in God's true grace? Are you enjoying peace with God by trusting in his saving kindness shown in Jesus Christ? If you do believe that Jesus Christ is God's Son; if you do trust His perfect life and atoning death for your salvation; if you do rely on Him and intend to please Him as long as you live and as best you are able in all things -- then do not delay acting on that faith!
Express with your mouth and your action the faith that is in your heart.
If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you shall be saved (Rom. 10:9)
Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on [Jesus'] name (Acts 22:16; Rom. 6:3-5; Gal. 3:26-27).
Of [Jesus] all the prophets bear witness that through his name every one who believes in him has received forgiveness of sins. . . . And [Peter] ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ (Acts 10:43, 47).
And then, as long as you live, continue to walk by the same faith --trusting, relying and obeying -- living in the TRUE GRACE OF GOD!


God bless you Kevin
 

Francisco

New member
RightIdea,
I have deliberately chosen to not be baptized in such a way, for I have been baptized in the Holy Spirit, and He works in my life in tangible ways on a daily basis, and I know I have eternal life.
I'm curious why you would choose to not be baptized, regardless whether baptism is necessary for salvation or not, when Paul tells us it is through baptism that we are buried with Christ, and are thereby joined to a share in His death and resurrection. And with all the emphasis put on the importance of baptism throughout the NT, Acts in particular, it would seem you would want to ba baptized even if you feel baptism is not necessary for salvation.

Second question, how can you 'know' that you have eternal life when even the apostle Paul didn't seem to 'know' it? Frequently Paul very clearly tells us he's not guaranteed eternal salvation, but somehow you have secured your eternal life. How is that?

God Bless,

Francisco
 

HopeofGlory

New member
Francisco,

You asked:

"how can you 'know' that you have eternal life"


He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 1 John 5:10
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 1 John 5:11
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 1 John 5:12
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God;that ye may know that ye have eternal life , and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:13
And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: 1 John 5:14
 

Francisco

New member
Hope,

I was actually asking RI for his views so can understand where he's coming from on his views of baptism. If you don't mind, I'll wait for his answer.

Thanks for your reply though!

Francisco
 

servantofChrist

New member
Hey HopeofGlory and RightIdea,

I have a few comments and then a question for the two of you: HopeofGlory, you cited 1 John 5:11-12 as the way to "know" that one has eternal life. Verse 11 says, "And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son." And then v. 12 says, "Whoever has the Son has life...." Notice that v. 11 says that eternal life is "in his Son." This corresponds with Eph. 1:3, which says that "every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" [or realm] is "in Christ." Since "every spiritual blessing" is "in Christ," this would obviously mean that salvation and eternal life are in Him.

That means every one of us had better be "in Christ" when we leave this world because that is where salvation and eternal life are. Question: How does one get "into" Christ so he can be "in" Christ where salvation and eternal life are?

There are only 2 verses in the entire New Testament that tell how an individual gets "into" Christ, and guess what? They both say the same thing - that one enters "into" Christ in the act of BAPTISM! Observe:

1. "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?" (Rom. 6:3)

2. "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." (Gal. 3:27)

HopeofGlory and RightIdea, I challenge both of you, or anyone else, to find a verse in the New Testament that speaks of one getting "into" Christ other than by baptism. Show me the verse that says one "believes into" or "repents into" or "confesses into" Christ. Or that a person is put "into" Christ by "love" or "mercy" or "grace"... Show me the passage!

And I have another question for both of you:

If there is more teaching in the N. T. on obtaining eternal life than that found in 1 John 5:11-12 and 1 John 5:13, should that evidence be given as thorough and careful consideration as those verses in 1 John?
 

servantofChrist

New member
For Everyone's Consideration:

I asked a question several months ago on this baptism thread that no one answered. I'll ask it again now and wait once again for an answer.

Many who believe that baptism is not necessary for salvation point to Eph. 2:8-9 and cite it as the scripture that tells how an "alien sinner" (one who has never been saved) is saved from his sins: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

Acts 2 records the first occasion of the gospel of Christ ever having been preached. So critically important was this original gospel message that every word of it was spoken by inspiration of the Holy Spirit through the apostle Peter to the multitude of Jews there on that day in Jerusalem.

My question is - If the words of Eph. 2:8-9 are the proper words to tell a person what to do to be forgiven of his sins and saved today in 2003, then why were they NOT the words spoken by the Holy Spirit to those thousands of lost souls who heard the first gospel message ever delivered, who were all condemned with unforgiven sins?

Why didn't the Holy Spirit, through Peter, say something like:

"Every one of you have faith and you will be forgiven of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, for it is by grace that you are saved through faith."

I'm still waiting, not just for a reply, but for an answer, an answer that is supported and firmly established by the scriptures.
 

Kevin

New member
c.moore,

I know you mention that not every one can be saved , but remember it is a matter of recieving , and accepting the good new gospel of Christ , and not everybody wants anything to do with Christ , so the work is really believing

Regardless, you've just set a condition for salvation. I've also been saying that salvation is conditional. The difference is that you believe that faith *alone* saves. I believe it's faith which produces obedience to God which saves.

Regarding the article you posted, interesting read. In the part that defined what grace is not, I'm assuming that the part speaking of a legalist is where you think I fit in.

I'm not trying to say that "earn" our salvation by a checklist mentality, but keeping the commandments of Christ, to the best of our ability, is expected of us. If all you do is go around with a checklist mentality of keeping His commandments, but lack the faith that saves us, then keeping his commandments, without faith, won't do anybody any good. I tried to explain to you in my last post that it is our faith that saves, but it is the type that of faith that produces obedience to God. Even your the author of your borrowed article agrees with me (you see this towards the end of my post).

When it comes to what grace is, the author of your borrowed article and I actually seem to agree! This is what he said:

The grace of God means -- first -- that Jesus became a man. He was one of us. As a man he kept God's will perfectly. Then he offered his body to God -- he presented to God what God had always wanted -- a human life perfectly in accord with his will for man. Grace means, in the second place, that Jesus died for sins -- though he himself had none.
Jesus Swapped Places With Us
In dying when he personally had never sinned, Jesus paid the price for OUR sins -- and those of every person who will finally be saved throughout all the world!

Compare that to what I said about what grace is:

Grace is that which is freely given. When it comes to the grace of God and our salvation, it is the free gift of salvation through His Son Jesus Christ.

He blessed us with His grace by sending His only Son to die to die on the cross, that we may be saved. There is nothing that man could have done to earn this grace, this gift, the sending of His Son to die that we may have salvation. He did it because of His longsuffering, generosity, and tremendous love for us.

This is clearly defined in Romans 6:23

Romans 6:23
23) For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So again, the grace of God is salvation by Him sending His Son to die for us, that we may have eternal life.

We are saying the same thing.

Interestingly enough, he said some other things that caught my eye:

Are YOU standing in God's true grace? Are you enjoying peace with God by trusting in his saving kindness shown in Jesus Christ? If you do believe that Jesus Christ is God's Son; if you do trust His perfect life and atoning death for your salvation; if you do rely on Him and intend to please Him as long as you live and as best you are able in all things -- then do not delay acting on that faith!

C.Moore, this is what I've been telling you time and time again. The author stresses to act on that faith. As I've said - the faith that saves is the faith that obeys. How can you "act" on faith without obeying? How can faith *alone* act on anything?

Also notice the author said:

if you do rely on Him and intend to please Him as long as you live and as best you are able in all things.

How do you "please Him as long as you live and as best you are able in all things"? Take a look, and please, read each of them, considering what they are saying:

John 14:15
15) If you love Me, keep My commandments.

John 14:23-24
23) Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
24) He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me."


1 John 2:3-6
3) Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4) He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5) But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6) He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.


1Jo 3:22
22) And whatever we ask, we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.

It's quite clear that we please Him by obeying Him, just as a partent is pleased with a child that is respectful and obedient.

The author then went on to say:

And then, as long as you live, continue to walk by the same faith --trusting, relying and obeying -- living in the TRUE GRACE OF GOD!

The author recognizes the importance of obedience.

What it boils down to is this, C.Moore. Those that are in Christ will make it to heaven. Those who aren't in Christ won't be in Heaven. The Bible SPELLS IT OUT how we know whether or not we know we are in Christ:

1 John 2:3-6
3) Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4) He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5) But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
6) He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.


I can't really make it any plainer. If we keep His commandments, we know that we are in Him. Those that are in Him will be saved. Thus, keeping His commandments are necessary for salvation. God's grace will NOT be with one who is not in Christ - those that aren't obedient to Him. Again, it is those who obey His commandments who are in Christ. That's why Heb. 5:9 says what it does: that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. True faith will produce this obedience. That is the faith that saves us.
 
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