ECT Free will

oatmeal · Jul 13, 2015

revpete said:
"Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

How? Why? because Noah sought to serve God"

It was by the grace of God that Noah had the desire to serve Him, not the other way around.

God's mercy and grace are connected as you say. However, we are not saved by His mercy. Mercy gives us what we don't deserve, grace goes further. Grace doesn't give us what we do deserve and then goes on give more and our cups run over.

The Lord states through His prophet Isaiah that all our righteousness is (in His sight) like filthy tags or a menstrual clothing. No, without His grace we can not please God. To say any other devalues grace and brings God down to our level.

In one way you are right, God's creation of the heaven and earth was grace, our very lives are a gift of God's grace.

Noah recognized that and chose to serve God as a result of that

However, that knowledge is available to all. Romans 1:19-21 ....

but not all respond to God's grace as Noah did.

God noted Noah's response, but He also noted the rest of the world's rejection of that grace. He allowed them to reap what they had sown

Jamie Gigliotti · Jul 13, 2015

God could easily see every possible path we can take all at once and continue fight for us though those choices to bring us into His will of a close personal relationship based on love between Him and us. Jesus certainly knew Peter would deny him, but He would not have prayed for Him as the Devil schemed against Peter if it was a foregone conclusion. Peter himself said "make your hope and election sure".
"To the one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot His name out of the book of life." Revelation 3:5
Obviously things are not a foregone conclusion.

genuineoriginal · Jul 13, 2015

revpete said:
Not really worth answering but... The grace of God enables a spiritually dead person to respond to Him.
Pete &#55357;&#56420;

Like I said, you have absolutely no idea what God's grace is.

God's grace is not some nebulous power that enables you to respond to Him.

You already have the power to respond to God's calling, or to reject it.

The name of that power is "freewill".

God's Grace is God being pleased with how you use your freewill and His choosing to give you a gift to show how pleased He is.

genuineoriginal · Jul 13, 2015

Puppet said:
Anyone can make a free will offering. What is to keep an atheist from slaudering a lamb at the alter?

An empty sacrifice does nothing.

Mark 7:6
6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

revpete · Jul 13, 2015

genuineoriginal said:
Like I said, you have absolutely no idea what God's grace is.

God's grace is not some nebulous power that enables you to respond to Him.

You already have the power to respond to God's calling, or to reject it.

The name of that power is "freewill".

God's Grace is God being pleased with how you use your freewill and His choosing to give you a gift to show how pleased He is.

Your answer magnifies man and brings God down to your level. Man centred rubbish!

You notice how your answer makes you the centre not God. God gives you a gift because He is pleased with you, when Isaiah says that all our righteousness are as filthy rags in His sight.

This teaching of Arminianism was rejected as heresy by the sinod of Dort and so it is and if you continue to magnify man above above God in this way I feel genuinely sorry for you because you are missing out on so much of what God has for you. I once thought as you and even defended the position as you are doing now but about twenty years ago The Lord graciously opened my eyes and the last twenty years have been the most blessed of my walk with Him.

revpete · Jul 13, 2015

oatmeal said:
In one way you are right, God's creation of the heaven and earth was grace, our very lives are a gift of God's grace.

Noah recognized that and chose to serve God as a result of that

However, that knowledge is available to all. Romans 1:19-21 ....

but not all respond to God's grace as Noah did.

God noted Noah's response, but He also noted the rest of the world's rejection of that grace. He allowed them to reap what they had sown

Thanks. You are saying that it is possible to resist God's grace and that it is available to all. You cite Rom 1 as proof of God's grace when those verses speak of the witness of the creation and not His grace.

I agree with you in part but must disagree when you make man the centre and not God. However, I hope we can agree to differ and carry on serving The Lord together.

Pete

genuineoriginal · Jul 13, 2015

revpete said:
Your answer magnifies man and brings God down to your level.

No, my answer is based on the overall message of the Bible.

God gives His grace (shows His favor) to those that please Him and God's wrath is upon all that do unrighteousness.

revpete said:
This teaching of Arminianism was rejected as heresy by the sinod of Dort

The Arminian "Prevenient grace" is almost as heretical as the Calvinist "Irresistable grace".

Clete · Jul 13, 2015

chrysostom said:
does predestination mean we do not have free will?

Yes, by definition.

If you (anyone) are not discussing the concept of determining your actions, whether in thought or deed, for yourself then you are discussing something other than free will. If God determined your actions in advance of your existence (definition of PREdestination) then, by definition, you do not determine your actions and therefore do not have free will.

Using the phrase free will with some other definition is, of course, what Calvinists and other Augustinian believers do all the time, which is why it is always important to define terms in any actual debate. I know that what happens here on TOL is rarely actual debate but nevertheless, defining terms is a good idea if you want to make any headway in the conversation.

Freewill requires the existence of alternative possibilities from which the free agent can choose by his own will. This makes the doctrine of Predestination and even Exhaustive Divine Foreknowledge rationally incompatible with the concept of free will.

Presume that T = You will answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am.
(1) Yesterday God infallibly believed T. [Supposition of both infallible foreknowledge and predestination]
(2) If E occurred in the past, it is now-necessary that E occurred then. [Principle of the Necessity of the Past]
(3) It is now-necessary that yesterday God believed T. [1, 2]
(4) Necessarily, if yesterday God believed T, then T. [Definition of "infallibility"]
(5) If p is now-necessary, and necessarily (p → q), then q is now-necessary. [Transfer of Necessity Principle]
(6) So it is now-necessary that T. [3,4,5]
(7) If it is now-necessary that T, then it is not logically possible for you to do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [Definition of "necessary"]
(8) Therefore, you cannot do otherwise than answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am. [6, 7][Definition of logically (im)possible]
(9) If you cannot do otherwise when you do an act, you do not act freely. [Principle of Alternate Possibilities]
(10) Therefore, when you answer the telephone tomorrow at 9 am, you will not do it freely. [8, 9]
source

Resting in Him,
Clete

genuineoriginal · Jul 13, 2015

revpete said:
You notice how your answer makes you the centre not God.

Not at all, so maybe you can explain why you think it does.
Start with these verses and explain how God choosing who will make up His jewels based on who will fear Him and serve Him is putting man at the center.

Malachi 3:16-18
16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

revpete said:
God gives you a gift because He is pleased with you

Yes, that is the testimony of the entire Bible.

revpete said:
, when Isaiah says that all our righteousness are as filthy rags in His sight.

Why do all the idiots that want to promote the Augustine heresy of Original Sin/Total Depravity keep ignoring what is written in the preceding verse?

Isaiah 64:5-6
5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

oatmeal · Jul 13, 2015

Jamie Gigliotti said:
God could easily see every possible path we can take all at once and continue fight for us though those choices to bring us into His will of a close personal relationship based on love between Him and us. Jesus certainly knew Peter would deny him, but He would not have prayed for Him as the Devil schemed against Peter if it was a foregone conclusion. Peter himself said "make your hope and election sure".
"To the one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot His name out of the book of life." Revelation 3:5
Obviously things are not a foregone conclusion.

You bring up good illustrations.

When we keep in mind that our knowledge of the future is limited but God's is not, then we see that God's foreknowledge of outcomes is useful to God to make wise decisions.

The pharaoh that Joseph interpreted the dreams for was glad to know what the next 14 years would bring and wisely chose Joseph to lead Egypt through that.

From our perspective, future events are not foregone conclusions as your examples illustrate, but for God who foreknows the future, the future is certain.

oatmeal · Jul 13, 2015

revpete said:
Thanks. You are saying that it is possible to resist God's grace and that it is available to all. You cite Rom 1 as proof of God's grace when those verses speak of the witness of the creation and not His grace.

I agree with you in part but must disagree when you make man the centre and not God. However, I hope we can agree to differ and carry on serving The Lord together.

Pete

Well, until any man learns to put God first, he will not put God first.

For a man to rise up to God's calling, that man must focus himself on the things of God.

We are not to ignore ourselves as we learn to live by God's doctrine.

1 Timothy 4:16

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

If you keep this in mind, you might see that God is the focus of my posts, not man, but if you exclude man from the situation, you deny God's decision to give men freewill to choose to serve Him or not to serve Him. What is the point of your post if you are to ignore your relationship with God?

Your relationship with God requires the involvement of two parties, God and you, a man.

Why would you ignore the man part?

We must believe God, who are we? man

Puppet · Jul 13, 2015

oatmeal said:
The true God does not force people to do His will.

He expects us to willfully and freely obey His will out of our desire to do so.

Mark 9:14-27 is one record of a spirit that forced a person to do things. That spirit is referred to as a dumb spirit, foul spirit, deaf and dumb spirit.

The kind of spirit that forces people to do things is an foul spirit, a devil spirit that possesses the mind and body of the host person or animal.

If indeed, you are being forced to do something by a spirit, it is not the spirit of God, but a devil spirit

Jesus Christ and his disciples were adept at casting out devil spirits, as we should be.

You may want to seek help from God and learn from His word how to overcome your challenges and learn to do God's will from your own freewill choices

Predestination is the only way God is going to keep His promises

genuineoriginal · Jul 13, 2015

Puppet said:
Predestination is the only way God is going to keep His promises

That is completely contrary to what the Bible states.

Isaiah 46:11
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

But, you seem to think God has no power to accomplish what He declares He will do.

Puppet · Jul 14, 2015

genuineoriginal said:
That is completely contrary to what the Bible states.

Isaiah 46:11
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

But, you seem to think God has no power to accomplish what He declares He will do.

His keeps His promises by declaring what He does

revpete · Jul 14, 2015

genuineoriginal said:
No, my answer is based on the overall message of the Bible.

God gives His grace (shows His favor) to those that please Him and God's wrath is upon all that do unrighteousness.

The Arminian "Prevenient grace" is almost as heretical as the Calvinist "Irresistable grace".

I agree that Wesley's prevenient grace is indeed unsciptural but heresy may be too strong. In your first point, if you are right then grace is no longer grace because it is works as Paul teaches in Rom.11:6. Your definition of grace is dependent on man pleasing Him ie works. Again Paul makes clear that God's mercy or His grace (interchangeable words here) is not dependant on our righteousness: Titus. 3: 1 - 5. If you are trusting in you definition of grace then you are in for one big dissapointment on that day.

Pete

genuineoriginal · Jul 14, 2015

Puppet said:
His keeps His promises by declaring what He does

Numbers 11:23
23 And the Lord said unto Moses, Is the Lord'S hand waxed short? thou shalt see now whether my word shall come to pass unto thee or not.

You doubt the power of the almighty.

You think God's hand is too short to be able to accomplish what He says He will do if anyone or anything tries to oppose Him.

So, you remove all the things that could try to interfere with God accomplishing His Word by claiming that God predestined everything and has spent the thousands of years since the foundation of the world following a script that He is incapable of changing.

Your version of predestination takes away God's free will as well as mans'.

genuineoriginal · Jul 14, 2015

revpete said:
In your first point, if you are right then grace is no longer grace because it is works as Paul teaches in Rom.11:6.

Paul was teaching that no man can obligate God through keeping the commandments in the Law.
If you could obligate God by keeping the commandments in the Law, then God would merely be paying you what you are owed instead of granting a gift based on Him being pleased (Grace) with you.

revpete said:
Your definition of grace is dependent on man pleasing Him ie works.

No, my definition of Grace is dependent on God being pleased by what He finds in a man.

revpete said:
Again Paul makes clear that God's mercy or His grace (interchangeable words here) is not dependant on our righteousness: Titus. 3: 1 - 5. If you are trusting in you definition of grace then you are in for one big dissapointment on that day.

You seem to have as much difficulty understanding what God wants from us as the Pharisees had.

Here is a little parable of how to gain God's favor (Grace):

Luke 18:9-14
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

You keep accusing me of trying to gain God's favor (Grace) by proudly boasting to God about how well I can keep the letter of the law.

I am the other guy, the one you refuse to notice.

Hawkins · Jul 14, 2015

Freewill is a very early concept developed among the Jews. The Essenes believe in complete predestination and thus no freewill. The Sadducees believe the opposite, that is, complete freewill with no predestination. While the Pharisees are in between, they believe that predestination is co-operated with freewill.

That being said, IMO predestination basically means God provides the chances for the saved to show themselves up as the saved in front of the angles (and other witnesses), such that the saved will be legitimately brought to Heaven under open witnessing. That is, the Pharisaic concept is more or less correct.

Alternatively speaking, our time in planet earth is short and limited. God knows who is who from the very beginning before the creation, but not the angels. God thus designed through predestination that the saved will be separated from the unsaved during their life time on earth, openly witnessed by the angels and the chosen saints as witnesses.

Puppet · Jul 14, 2015

genuineoriginal said:
Numbers 11:23
23 And the Lord said unto Moses, Is the Lord'S hand waxed short? thou shalt see now whether my word shall come to pass unto thee or not.

You doubt the power of the almighty.

You think God's hand is too short to be able to accomplish what He says He will do if anyone or anything tries to oppose Him.

So, you remove all the things that could try to interfere with God accomplishing His Word by claiming that God predestined everything and has spent the thousands of years since the foundation of the world following a script that He is incapable of changing.

Your version of predestination takes away God's free will as well as mans'.

God's hands are infinity long with pure free will. I like your smartmouth responses but they don't apply to me. Perhaps you tell everyone that at your own risk. You failed this time.

Totton Linnet · Jul 14, 2015

If God had not foreknown, not predestined not chosen before all worlds began NO-ONE would have survived God's wrath at man's sin.

Everything was worked out before He created.

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