Atheists, do you hope you're right?

exminister · Jul 12, 2015

serpentdove said:
The atheist claims he has no faith. He's got just as much faith as I do. He has faith that God does not exists and that this is all there is. I have faith that God does exists and that there is more after this life.

Job was a legalist. He believed he was a good person. God set him straight (Job 38–41).
He had said to his dimwit wife: Shall we indeed accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity? Jb 2:10. In general, if one lives a godly life he can expect good things but that is not always the case and we don't always understand why. He never got answers. He had faith anyway (Jb 19:23–27).
That's what God-haters do. Their slot machine god didn't come through for them so they're finished with him. They pulled the handle and no money came out, no attractive spouse came out, no job or house or white picket fence came out.
Tell me all about my faith. Jn 8:56, Ro 8:33

So you have "faith" that Vishnu does not exist? That is baffling. You cannot apply faith to it. You just want to make faith and belief synonymous. Abraham had faith in that God would provide a substitute for Isaac but he could not see that. It was not logical to even to think that. How can that be applied to not believing Vishnu exists? Can you find a Bible quote that says so and so had faith in not-God?

exminister · Jul 12, 2015

Believing is seeing and expectation based on evidence - My car has started every morning and I expect the same today. If it stopped starting I would get it repaired or replace it.

Faith is not seeing and even going to the grave never seeing. It is way beyond belief.

Hebrews 11
1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

serpentdove · Jul 12, 2015

exminister said:
"So you have "faith" that Vishnu does not exist?...Can you find a Bible quote that says so and so had faith in not-God?"

Vishnu does not exist (Ge 1:1, Ac 17:22-26).

exminister said:
"You just want to make faith and belief synonymous. Abraham had faith in that God would provide a substitute for Isaac but he could not see that."

He knew if he put his son to death God would raise him again. He'd have to. God had promised to bless the world through him (Gen. 17:15–19).

exminister said:
"It was not logical to even to think that."

It was not logical to think that he could have a children in his old age. Didn't Sarah laugh? Ge 18:13-14

exminister said:
"How can that be applied to not believing Vishnu exists?"

Because I believe the bible (Ps 119:60).

lain:

aikido7 · Jul 12, 2015

Traditional Christians as well as atheists take the Bible literally.

The atheist allows this interpretation from the Christian point of view and declares their interpretation nonsense.

And most Christians take the sacred and metaphorical language of their faith as factually correct.

Both sides are equally adamant and unyielding.

In my view, metaphor, myth and parable use poetic language that points to the underlying truth of the Bible. The Jews were the first to recognize that the great Yahweh is infinite and therefore beyond description by ordinary human terms and language.

Jamie Gigliotti · Jul 13, 2015

Hedshaker said:
Yeah I get it. You're obsessively under the spell of your religion and you think your god is the one true, and real God. Good for you. Doesn't make it true though. There are other's, just as fanatical as you who feel the same about their religion and their god. You can't all be right but you can all be wrong. From the outside looking in it sure doesn't looks like any of you are right.

Words in a book. Fantastical stories can not satisfy the longing of the heart and soul. Only love that is true. You quickly dismiss what you don't want to believe as 'under the spell'. If from outside your rightness meter doesn't gauge God by love; and love that is testified to, then quite possibly the meter is under a spell.

Hedshaker · Jul 13, 2015

Jamie Gigliotti said:
Words in a book. Fantastical stories can not satisfy the longing of the heart and soul. Only love that is true. You quickly dismiss what you don't want to believe as 'under the spell'. If from outside your rightness meter doesn't gauge God by love; and love that is testified to, then quite possibly the meter is under a spell.

Oh stop it, you'll have me crying in my coffee. You think you are special and favoured by the great invisible sky spirit who created the universes with supernatural magic.

Truth is you don't have a monopoly on anything, let alone love and spirituality. If you really think that giving your mind to a religion has done you any long term favours then have a look around. Plenty of people manage to turn their life around without giving credit to an imaginary friend or some pie-in-the-sky belief system. It's a bit like using a crutch for a broken leg and then growing unable to part with it when the leg gets better.

Spare me the emotional blurb, it grows wearisome. If you have testable, falsifiable evidence to back up your claims that would be good, cause for what you're doing you might as well throw monkey bones across the table.

Save the mindless preaching for someone who gives a toss, ta!

Cheers :thumb:

Jamie Gigliotti · Jul 13, 2015

Hedshaker said:
Oh stop it, you'll have me crying in my coffee. You think you are special and favoured by the great invisible sky spirit who created the universes with supernatural magic.

Truth is you don't have a monopoly on anything, let alone love and spirituality. If you really think that giving your mind to a religion has done you any long term favours then have a look around. Plenty of people manage to turn their life around without giving credit to an imaginary friend or some pie-in-the-sky belief system. It's a bit like using a crutch for a broken leg and then growing unable to part with it when the leg gets better.

Spare me the emotional blurb, it grows wearisome. If you have testable, falsifiable evidence to back up your claims that would be good, cause for what you're doing you might as well throw monkey bones across the table.

Save the mindless preaching for someone who gives a toss, ta!

Cheers :thumb:

I'm glad to be able to share the truth of my testimony with you.What happens with it is between you and God. Praying that you find the love that I have.

noguru · Jul 15, 2015

Jamie Gigliotti said:
I'm glad to be able to share the truth of my testimony with you.What happens with it is between you and God. Praying that you find the love that I have.

Is it really "love", or are you suffering from a delusion based on your dogmatic adherence to a religion?

Don't answer, because I already know your answer to this. This is a rhetorical question, designed to get people to think critically, if they are capable of that.

Jamie Gigliotti · Jul 15, 2015

noguru said:
Is it really "love", or are you suffering from a delusion based on your dogmatic adherence to a religion?

Don't answer, because I already know your answer to this. This is a rhetorical question, designed to get people to think critically, if they are capable of that.

Dogma can't secure a heart filled with fear, insecurity, jealousy, resentment and hate... Only perfect agape love.

noguru · Jul 15, 2015

Jamie Gigliotti said:
Dogma can't secure a heart filled with fear, insecurity, jealousy, resentment and hate... Only perfect agape love.

In that case one does not need to rely on religion to find this perfect "agape love". I am very familiar with the Greek categories of love. As well as the intricate and nuanced history surrounding these human ideas. I hope you are not trying to baffle me with bull feces as a way to promote your specific brand of religion.

serpentdove · Jul 15, 2015

exminister said:
Believing is seeing and expectation based on evidence...

A few housekeeping items:

In the old days TOL sent an e-mail update for replies to one's post. They no longer do that so if you are continuing on in a discussion it is helpful to reply to the post so that it can be seen in hybrid mode.

For example, this comment (above) can more easily be found here.

aikido7 · Jul 15, 2015

serpentdove said:
Not do you think you're right--do you hope that you are right that there is no God and therefore no ultimate justice in the afterlife?

I think the thrust of the attacks from atheists and agnostics comes from the idea that they are not able to take the metaphors and profound truths of Christianity seriously.

In this respect they are like the fundamentalists and the evangelicals. They can only see the literalism in a particular passage. They take sacred language as fact, not as mythical and profound truth.

Hedshaker · Jul 15, 2015

Jamie Gigliotti said:
I'm glad to be able to share the truth of my testimony with you.What happens with it is between you and God. Praying that you find the love that I have.

Preach it brother. Someone, somewhere must care.

If you really have the Truth tm then why are you so afraid of taking a critical look into your beliefs. Don't answer that. I know why. Cherished beliefs are way more important than any genuine search for truth.

Hawkins · Jul 15, 2015

The simple truth is, humans rarely rely on evidence to reach a truth. Humans in majority rely heavily on faith to reach a truth at all.

No one has evidence about the existence of black holes except those maintaining a direct contact with black holes themselves, that is, the scientists acting as the witnesses between humans in majority and the truth itself.

To be more precise, humans rely heavily and sometimes exclusively on a small group of direct witnesses to reach a truth. This includes day to day news, human history as a whole, science (such as the existence of black holes, galaxies, particles, you name it), and more.

There is yet another kind of truths which are not supposed to be known by humans in a specific time frame. The existence of black holes is never made known to humans in stone age, so are angels/gods to today's humans. This kind of truths can only be reached by human witnessing, there's no other way round. Say, if you are sent back to humans in stone age, they have to choose to believe your testimonies about the existence of black holes in order to reach such a truth. There's no other way round. If you are put to that circumstance, you may well say to them that "you are the truth, the way and the life (if the existence of black holes does concern their lives)". Sound familiar?!

Jamie Gigliotti · Jul 15, 2015

noguru said:
In that case one does not need to rely on religion to find this perfect "agape love". I am very familiar with the Greek categories of love. As well as the intricate and nuanced history surrounding these human ideas. I hope you are not trying to baffle me with bull feces as a way to promote your specific brand of religion.

I'm talking about fellowship, a close personal Love filled relationship with God through Jesus Christ. I've witnessed to me actually experiencing this and freedom from darkness in my heart; intense negative emotions from my pains inflicted by myself and others and the healing His love has brought me.

Jamie Gigliotti · Jul 15, 2015

Hedshaker said:
Preach it brother. Someone, somewhere must care.

If you really have the Truth tm then why are you so afraid of taking a critical look into your beliefs. Don't answer that. I know why. Cherished beliefs are way more important than any genuine search for truth.

My search for truth ended in His love.

noguru · Jul 15, 2015

Jamie Gigliotti said:
I'm talking about fellowship, a close personal Love filled relationship with God through Jesus Christ. I've witnessed to me actually experiencing this and freedom from darkness in my heart; intense negative emotions from my pains inflicted by myself and others and the healing His love has brought me.

I am quite aware of the feelings such a subjective perspective can bring about. It is still wise for a person to be courageous and honest with themselves about all the various angles to this perspective.

noguru · Jul 15, 2015

Hawkins said:
The simple truth is, humans rarely rely on evidence to reach a truth. Humans in majority rely heavily on faith to reach a truth at all.

No one has evidence about the existence of black holes except those maintaining a direct contact with black holes themselves, that is, the scientists acting as the witnesses between humans in majority and the truth itself.

To be more precise, humans rely heavily and sometimes exclusively on a small group of direct witnesses to reach a truth. This includes day to day news, human history as a whole, science (such as the existence of black holes, galaxies, particles, you name it), and more.

There is yet another kind of truths which are not supposed to be known by humans in a specific time frame. The existence of black holes is never made known to humans in stone age, so are angels/gods to today's humans. This kind of truths can only be reached by human witnessing, there's no other way round. Say, if you are sent back to humans in stone age, they have to choose to believe your testimonies about the existence of black holes in order to reach such a truth. There's no other way round. If you are put to that circumstance, you may well say to them that "you are the truth, the way and the life (if the existence of black holes does concern their lives)". Sound familiar?!

You are conflating faith in a supernatural entity for which there is no empirical evidence, with confidence in a methodology based on natural explanations for which we have a multitude of evidence.

noguru · Jul 15, 2015

Jamie Gigliotti said:
My search for truth ended in His love.

So you are claiming to now have absolute knowledge of all things?

Hawkins · Jul 15, 2015

noguru said:
You are conflating faith in a supernatural entity for which there is no empirical evidence, with confidence in a methodology based on natural explanations for which we have a multitude of evidence.

Human history as whole has no empirical evidence. The nature of the kind of truths defines whether it can be evidenced at all. More often, humans rely on the validity of witnessing to reach a truth. No witnessing can be made more valid then those martyred themselves for what is said and done. Today we have photos and videos supportive of our witnessing though.

Atheists, do you hope you're right?

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