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Thread: One on One: Foreknowledge and Causation-Lighthouse and Sozo

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    One on One: Foreknowledge and Causation-Lighthouse and Sozo

    Good day to you, Sozo.

    Now, I want to start out by getting some things out of the way. I need to explain that I do not believe that if God had exhaustive foreknowledge that his foreknowledge would remove our free will. I do, however, believe that we would not have free will if He had the foreknowledge.

    Of course, there are some instances where his having foreknowledge would not mean that we do not have free will, but that is if the foreknowledge were not exhaustive.

    The reason I believe this is that I believe whatever allows God to have the foreknowledge is what would mean we have no free will.

    One example is that if God predestined everything then we would have no free will. His preordaining is the reason we do not have free will, not his foreknowledge. Or if there were more than one god, and one of those gods foreordained all things, and the other gods had knowledge of those things, only the god who foreordained everything would be the cause of our not having free will, but the other gods would have the foreknowledge, but in no way would they be responsible for our not having free will.

    Do you agree?

    Of course, neither of us believes all things were predestined, nor do we believe there are multiple gods. So, after your response we can move on to things we do believe.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse
    Good day to you, Sozo.

    Now, I want to start out by getting some things out of the way. I need to explain that I do not believe that if God had exhaustive foreknowledge that his foreknowledge would remove our free will. I do, however, believe that we would not have free will if He had the foreknowledge.

    Of course, there are some instances where his having foreknowledge would not mean that we do not have free will, but that is if the foreknowledge were not exhaustive.

    The reason I believe this is that I believe whatever allows God to have the foreknowledge is what would mean we have no free will.

    One example is that if God predestined everything then we would have no free will. His preordaining is the reason we do not have free will, not his foreknowledge. Or if there were more than one god, and one of those gods foreordained all things, and the other gods had knowledge of those things, only the god who foreordained everything would be the cause of our not having free will, but the other gods would have the foreknowledge, but in no way would they be responsible for our not having free will.

    Do you agree?
    Since it's Fellowship week...

    I agree 100%


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    I know you agree with the examples, but do you agree that whatever allows Him to have the knowledge would mena we had no free will? That is if the foreknowledge was exhaustive...


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    Registered User Sozo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse
    Good day to you, Sozo.
    Thank you, my friend, and a good day to you too!
    I need to explain that I do not believe that if God had exhaustive foreknowledge that his foreknowledge would remove our free will.
    Can you say that another way, because the double negative is messin' with my head
    I do, however, believe that we would not have free will if He had the foreknowledge.
    I, of course, disagree. I believe that God would not have free will if he had the foreknowledge. The only thing that changes free will is the knowledge of the one who does the things they know about. God knowing what I will do does not change my free will, but it does His. If I know what is going to happen, then I would no longer have free will.
    One example is that if God predestined everything then we would have no free will.
    Absolutely!
    Last edited by Sozo; April 19th, 2006 at 10:21 AM.

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    Oy. You need to format better...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sozo
    Thank you, my friend, and a good day to you too!


    Can you say that another way, because the double negative is messin' with my head
    I do not believe that if God had exhaustive foreknowledge our free will would be removed by that foreknowledge.

    I, of course, disagree. I believe that God would not have free will if he had the foreknowledge. The only thing that changes free will is the knowledge of the one who does the things they know about. God knowing what I will do does not change my free will, but it does His. If I know what is going to happen, then I would no longer have free will.
    How could God know? There are only two ways I can think of. Either He would have predestined it, or it has already happened, i.e. it exists within the space-time continuum. Of course, this is only with exhaustive foreknowledge.

    Absolutely!
    Okay. On that we agree. Now, if God merely knew, because it had already happened/existed to be known, would we have free will? I say, "no."


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    Registered User Sozo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse
    Oy. You need to format better...
    Uh?

    I do not believe that if God had exhaustive foreknowledge our free will would be removed by that foreknowledge.
    Now, if God merely knew, because it had already happened/existed to be known, would we have free will? I say, "no."
    This two statements appear to me to be in complete contradiction.

    I'm confused

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sozo
    Uh?
    When I went to respond, your entire post was in one paragraph. I had to seperate the points myself. You did it just fine this time.

    This two statements appear to me to be in complete contradiction.

    I'm confused
    It is not God's foreknowledge that removes our free will. We agree on this, correct?


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    Do you have an answer?


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    Registered User Sozo's Avatar
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    I don't think I understand the question.

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    It is not God's foreknowledge that removes our free will. We agree on this, correct?

    And, by the way, where's that avatar I made for you?


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    That question makes no sense to me?

    Who is the guy in the avatar?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sozo
    That question makes no sense to me?
    If God had exhaustive foreknowledge, his having the foreknowledge would not remove our free will, correct?

    Who is the guy in the avatar?
    Ron White. Have you ever seen either of the Blue Collar Comedy Tours?


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    Registered User Sozo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse
    If God had exhaustive foreknowledge, his having the foreknowledge would not remove our free will, correct?
    correct
    Ron White. Have you ever seen either of the Blue Collar Comedy Tours?
    Never heard of it.

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