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Thread: An Atheist (Fool) Debates Bob on God's Rights

  1. #16
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    I suppose I will have to listen to this now. I bailed earlier when the purported expert speaking about Lucy claimed that evolutionist believe "we came from monkeys". Not sure that is an accurate statement of evolutionary thinking but it is probably good enough for Pastor Enyart's purposes.
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    Over 4000 post club fool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    [b].

    Psalms 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all His ways, Gracious in all His works.


    Zephaniah 3:5 The LORD is righteous in her midst, He will do no unrighteousness. [/indent]we can put trust in God because we know He is a righteous God and His ways are righteous.

    It's like this...
    I might say to you... we can trust that a smart man does smart things. And that's true... by definition a smart man does smart things. Yet it would be silly for us to then conclude (from that statement) that a smart man could hypothetically do ANYTHING and it would continue to be smart.
    Seems like its more like saying (from those verses you quoted) that he is smart in all his ways, that he will do no unsmartness, that he is smart and his ways are smart.

    That would be silly conclusion to jump to wouldn't you agree?
    If you espouse that absolute morality comes from God, then it sure would help you out if God was absolutly moral.
    Everyman is a voice in the dark.
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  3. #18
    Your powers are weak, old man. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fool
    Seems like its more like saying (from those verses you quoted) that he is smart in all his ways, that he will do no unsmartness, that he is smart and his ways are smart.
    And wouldn't it be silly if someone then twisted that to mean that God could do dumb things and call them smart?

    In other words....
    Asserting that God is good is very different than asserting God could do evil and then evil would be good.
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    And wouldn't it be silly if someone then twisted that to mean that God could do dumb things and call them smart?
    So by this are you admitting that right and wrong exist outside of God?
    I thought you posited that right and wrong came from God.
    If you say that God could do dumb/wrong things then obviously some metric of morality exists apart from God, that God himself could act contrary to.
    In other words....
    Asserting that God is good is very different than asserting God could do evil and then evil would be good.
    So again here we see that morality exists apart from God, and that God could run afoul of it.
    Everyman is a voice in the dark.
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    Formerly Shimei! Servo's Avatar
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    Great call fool!

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shimei
    Great call fool!
    Thanks, part 2 on thurs. I had no idea it would go as far as it did.
    Everyman is a voice in the dark.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fool
    Thanks, part 2 on thurs. I had no idea it would go as far as it did.
    I'm looking forward to it. It's nice when the topics get switched up from time to time.

    You're like a Berean fool!

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    Gold level Subscriber kmoney's Avatar
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    I finally had a chance to listen. Good call and topic fool.
    Don't forget to post thursdays call on here too because I definitely want to hear part 2!

    I thought Bob's comparison of weightlifting to an Israelite soldier killing a baby was a big strange though. :squint:

    I was waiting for you (fool) to bring hell into the picture. Bob was talking about going from the porch to inside but it isn't as simple as that because inside there are two rooms and one is much nicer than the other. Looking forward to when you get to the part about a 23 YO dying and an 80 YO dying....

  9. #24
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    As expected...

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight


    fool... you misrepresented my argument on Bob's show... I have never said that "God is righteous and therefore God can do anything and it would be righteous".

    I have never once said that.

    That aside... it was a really good call!
    Knight, glad to hear that. I was expecting as much. And also, I agree that it was a really good call. I'm looking foward to the sequel on Thursday!

    -Bob
    The Bob Enyart Live talk show airs at KGOV.com weekdays at 5 pm E.T. Also, same time, same station, check out Theology Thursday (.com) and on Fridays, Real Science Radio (.com) a.k.a. rsr.org. All shows are available 24/7 and you can call us at at 1-800-8Enyart.

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    If it's all right with you Bob I'd like to call for the second half of the show like last time, that's 6:30 EST, much easier for me since 5:00 EST is right when I'm in the middle of getting home from work and bringing the kids home type chaos. If that's no good I can do the earlier segment, that when all my other apperances were, but 6:30 is easier.
    Everyman is a voice in the dark.
    I II III IV

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Yet that isn't what you said that I said. You insinuated that I said.... God could do anything and it would be righteous.
    Well, do you agree or disagree with the statement that God could do anything and it would be righteous?

    And, what is your personal method for determining whether an act is or is not righteous?


    I might say to you... we can trust that a smart man does smart things. And that's true... by definition a smart man does smart things. Yet it would be silly for us to then conclude (from that statement) that a smart man could hypothetically do ANYTHING and it would continue to be smart.

    That would be silly conclusion to jump to wouldn't you agree?
    Yes, this would be a silly conclusion. But this isn't quite an exact analogy with the case above for this reason: Alot of Christians say the derive their moral standards from the attributes of God. We wouldn't say that we determine what smart means by observing a specific smart man.
    Last edited by SUTG; March 30th, 2006 at 04:43 PM.

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    Great call, fool!

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    And wouldn't it be silly if someone then twisted that to mean that God could do dumb things and call them smart?
    If you use that person as the standard for smart then what he does is smart.
    It's not a twisting at all, it's an if 1+1=2 and 2+2=4, then 1+1+1+1=4 expansion of the premise.
    I don't want to use all the material for tomorrows show, but if you want to call in at the same time, you and Bob can gang up on me. We could call it "the clash in the corn", or the "wrestle in the wheat", or "the battle in the bread basket", I'm sure the people in Des Moines might be a little puzzeled why two guys from Colorado are arguing with a guy from Michigan on their air, but like a wise man once said "Show biz, son, show biz!"
    Everyman is a voice in the dark.
    I II III IV

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    Over 750 post club Balder's Avatar
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    Fool, I wrote this post before listening to your call. A good part of my comments were covered. Good job! I have questions and responses of my own. Maybe I'll have to call one day.

    I like how you handled yourself, and a number of the points you made. If the God who is telling you to go cut down babies is really the all-powerful creator of the universe, then certainly he could solve problems and accomplish his aims by other means than by asking people to go and slaughter their neighbors. He could just make the bad people disappear, or fall over dead, as you suggested. He could take the babies bodily into heaven if he really wants them. The fact that he chooses this violent method above others says something about him (if you really believe he's ordering these things), and that something isn't very good. Morality is more than just authority (or might is right).

    In Bob's scenario, where Christ's salvation guarantees that no one has to go to a fate of eternal torment if they die as an infant, it is kind of strange that he keeps letting generation after generation go astray without hearing of Christ. Because, as the inheritors of fallen flesh, virtually all humans are bound to go astray if given enough time, thus squandering Christ's supposed gift. And over the thousands of years since Christ died, many have lived long enough to sin but not long enough to hear the gospel, and thus vast numbers are doomed. What's the point?

    Anyway, I'll tune in when you call again.

    Best wishes,

    B.

    P.S. My son really digs the Bob Enyart song! I've never seen him dance like this before....
    Last edited by Balder; March 30th, 2006 at 12:26 AM.
    "Perhaps everything terrible is in its deepest being something that needs our love" ~ Rainer Maria Rilke

  15. #30
    Your powers are weak, old man. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fool
    If you use that person as the standard for smart then what he does is smart.
    No, again you are wrong.

    Events in the Bible do not happen in a vacuum.

    We have God's commands, counsel, example and instruction. And from that we could could objectively discern if He chose to act against His nature, which He doesn't.

    It seems to me you have something worked out in your head and your having a hard time letting it go even though it is clearly is in error.

    It's your story and your stickin' to it.
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