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Thread: One on One: Eternal Damnation VS Universal Salvation (Logos_X VS Apologist)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apologist
    Well, you gave nothing but your own application of scripture, and you didn't really give a yes or no answer as to the very first premise: "The soul procedes from the Father." If you say yes, then you must concede all that comes after. If you say no, then you are denying that God "breathed into us the breath of life." Your pick.
    Buzzzz! Wrong!

    Eternal torment is the most horrendous and monsterous construct ever concieved by the mind of man. Nothing could be concieved that would compare even remotely to this dark notion.

    This dark notion is attributed to the Father of all Creation by virtue of the fact that He created things in such a way that this would result.

    And...what you are telling us all is: that this is because our souls are made of the same stuff He is made of.

    Logical? No it's plain carnal idiocy!

    In other words..it's the fallen logic of fallen man...who by loose definition is a meathead.

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    And...what you are telling us all is: that this is because our souls are made of the same stuff He is made of.
    Do you deny that our souls procede from the Father? If that is the case, then our souls are of the same substance, and all that i had said must therefore follow. If that is not the case, then God indeed did not "Breath into us the breath of life." Pick one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apologist
    Do you deny that our souls procede from the Father? If that is the case, then our souls are of the same substance, and all that i had said must therefore follow. If that is not the case, then God indeed did not "Breath into us the breath of life." Pick one.
    I don't have to pick one.

    The soul proceeds from the Father as all things do.
    It is not of the same substance. In Him we live and move and have our being...but we are not little pieces of God. We are created in His image...but we are not Him.

    Our life eminates from Him as all life does...but it does not follow that what you are trying to propose is what that means.

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    Quote Originally Posted by logos_x
    I don't have to pick one.

    The soul proceeds from the father as all things do.
    The Soul alone procedes from the Father (barring the third person of the trinity.) There is nothing else in the scripture like the Soul. God breathed into us the breath of life. He did not form the breath of life. It proceded from God into man. Because the soul procedes rather than is formed of anything else, it therefore must be of the same of the substance.

    Boomshakalaka.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apologist
    The Soul alone procedes from the Father (barring the third person of the trinity.) There is nothing else in the scripture like the Soul. God breathed into us the breath of life. He did not form the breath of life. It proceded from God into man. Because the soul procedes rather than is formed of anything else, it therefore must be of the same of the substance.

    Boomshakalaka.


    Way to really ignore the facts, meatwad!

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    So...using your own illogic:

    God is going to burn forever something that eminates from Himself without any remedy.

    How silly is that!

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    Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
    Gen 3:2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
    Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
    Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
    Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.


    Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
    Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
    Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.


    Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:
    Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
    Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

    I think Genesis 3:22 knda has the tendancy to refute your notions Apologist. God pretected man from living forever without there being any remedy. What did God really accomplish in protecting man from living forever, if man lives forever anyway?

    Your "logic" stems completely upon the idea of the innate immortality of the human soul. People who beleive in this idea don't think God really did much of anything in preventing Adam and Eve from eating from the tree of life. They think this refers only to physical life, but not to the soul.
    And they have turned death into something God himself cannot remedy for all men...because of the construct that you have expressed.

    But this construct is not found in God's word anywhere. If fact, virtually every construct that you have expressed as necessary Christian belief are things that scripture itself refutes. But when those scriptures are brought up...there is a dull thud and the desperate whimper that those scriptures cannot mean what they in fact say.

    You have even gone so far as to say that they are irrelevent.

    So...there we are. Your whole plausibility structure flies in the face of scriptural testimony like smoke. And your arguments have not stood up to scrutiny and have been shown to be damned nonsense. But you cling to the eternal torment doctrine like a sucking child thinking it nourishes and sustains you. And...your church has a history of murdering people who question the doctrine, and insisting that the whole human race must believe in this Hell of yours and its insatiable appitite that even God Himself cannot (or will not) give sufficient Grace to remedy.

    I have a mind to watch Lord of the Rings again, and veiwing the ring as the belief in eternal torment.

    But, before I do I'll ask a few more questions:

    1.) Do you ardently DESIRE the salvation of all men?
    2.) Is it true that God "openeth his hand and satisfieth the desire of every living thing?" -- (Ps. 145:16)
    3.) Do you fervently PRAY for the salvation of all men? (1 Tim. 2:1)
    5.) Do you pray in FAITH, nothing doubting? (James 1:6)
    6.) Are you aware, "that whatsoever is not of faith is sin?" -- (Rom 14:23)
    7.) Would God require us to pray for all men, and to pray in faith, unless He intends all men should be saved?
    8.) If you believe endless misery to be the truth of God, why should you desire and pray that it may prove false?

    1.) If God willed the endless misery of a part of His creatures, why is it said that "he will have all men to be saved?" -- (1 Tim. 2:4)
    2.) If the Scriptures should testify, that God "will have all men to be damned," could we safely infer that a part might be saved?
    3.) If the Scriptures testify, that God "will have all men to be saved," can we safely infer that a part may be damned?

    1.) Can sufficient provision be made for the salvation of all men, if some men are never saved?
    2.) Must not sufficient provision be sufficient to subdue the will of the creature?
    3.) Is there any other way to determine the sufficiency of the means employed, than by the accomplishment of the end designed?

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    And one more question.

    I would like you to consider the following passage of scripture and explain why it says what it says.

    1Ti 6:12 Exert all your strength in the honourable struggle for the faith; lay hold of the Life of the Ages, to which you were called, when you made your noble profession of faith before many witnesses.
    1Ti 6:13 I charge you--as in the presence of God who gives life to all creatures, and of Christ Jesus who at the bar of Pontius Pilate made a noble profession of faith--
    1Ti 6:14 that you keep God's commandments stainlessly and without reproach till the Appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1Ti 6:15 For, as its appointed time, this will be brought about by the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
    1Ti 6:16 who alone possesses immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, and whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be eternal honour and power! Amen.

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    Your "logic" stems completely upon the idea of the innate immortality of the human soul. People who beleive in this idea don't think God really did much of anything in preventing Adam and Eve from eating from the tree of life. They think this refers only to physical life, but not to the soul.
    Notably, God wasn't really protecting man when he cast him out of the garden from the tree of life. That was a punishment. He wasn't "protecting man from having immortality." He was casting man out of what he might otherwise have been freely given, because man had attempted to steal it.

    And they have turned death into something God himself cannot remedy for all men...because of the construct that you have expressed.
    God can remedy it for all men. He did that when Christ Jesus suffered and died on the cross for us. Unfortunately, not all men are willing to accept it.



    Do you ardently DESIRE the salvation of all men?
    Sure, but the desire for salvation of men does not mean that those men will take the initiative to repent and believe.

    2.) Is it true that God "openeth his hand and satisfieth the desire of every living thing?" -- (Ps. 145:16)
    Sure, presuming that said living things ask for it. "Ask and ye shall recieve, seek and ye shall find." "Blessed are they who hunger and thirst after righteousness; they shall be filled."

    3.) Do you fervently PRAY for the salvation of all men? (1 Tim. 2:1)
    A chaplet of the divine mercy every Saturday, the 15 prayers of St. Bridget nightly, and the rosary every so often. I am gonna say the Rosary more, however, when i finish the 15 prayers of St. Bridget. (Only like 40 days left! )

    7.) Would God require us to pray for all men, and to pray in faith, unless He intends all men should be saved?
    Intention does not necessarily demand fulfillment.


    [quote]8.) If you believe endless misery to be the truth of God, why should you desire and pray that it may prove false?[/indent]

    Because it is a truth that is avoidable.

    1.) If God willed the endless misery of a part of His creatures, why is it said that "he will have all men to be saved?" -- (1 Tim. 2:4)


    Sure, God desires for our salvation. He wouldn't have suffered and died on the cross for us had he not. Unfortunately, intention does not equate to fulfillment.

    2.) If the Scriptures should testify, that God "will have all men to be damned," could we safely infer that a part might be saved?
    It is possible.

    3.) If the Scriptures testify, that God "will have all men to be saved," can we safely infer that a part may be damned?
    Sure. It doesn't say "God will save all men." It says "God desires the salvation of all men." Therein lies the difference.

    Notably, you are still denying the one quintessential point i made. God did not create the soul. He issued it. He did not form it. He breathed it out of his own being. Therefore the soul, being created of nothing else but God, is of the substance of God, and therefore, like God, must therefore be indestructable. Stop dodging.

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    God is going to burn forever something that eminates from Himself without any remedy.
    Yep.

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    Nope

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apologist
    Notably, God wasn't really protecting man when he cast him out of the garden from the tree of life. That was a punishment. He wasn't "protecting man from having immortality." He was casting man out of what he might otherwise have been freely given, because man had attempted to steal it.
    He cast them out "lest they eat of the tree of life and live forever".
    Yes it was a punishment but it was not eternal.



    God can remedy it for all men. He did that when Christ Jesus suffered and died on the cross for us. Unfortunately, not all men are willing to accept it.
    How do you know?





    Sure, but the desire for salvation of men does not mean that those men will take the initiative to repent and believe.
    Hell would motivate them.



    Sure, presuming that said living things ask for it. "Ask and ye shall recieve, seek and ye shall find." "Blessed are they who hunger and thirst after righteousness; they shall be filled."
    Hell will correct this oversight.



    A chaplet of the divine mercy every Saturday, the 15 prayers of St. Bridget nightly, and the rosary every so often. I am gonna say the Rosary more, however, when i finish the 15 prayers of St. Bridget. (Only like 40 days left! )
    Why?

    Intention does not necessarily demand fulfillment.
    Horse Hockey!


    8.) If you believe endless misery to be the truth of God, why should you desire and pray that it may prove false?
    Because it is a truth that is avoidable.
    Answer the question.



    Sure, God desires for our salvation. He wouldn't have suffered and died on the cross for us had he not. Unfortunately, intention does not equate to fulfillment.
    Horse Hockey!



    It is possible.
    What is possible?



    Sure. It doesn't say "God will save all men." It says "God desires the salvation of all men." Therein lies the difference.
    Will He "do all my pleasure" as He says He will?

    Notably, you are still denying the one quintessential point i made. God did not create the soul. He issued it. He did not form it. He breathed it out of his own being. Therefore the soul, being created of nothing else but God, is of the substance of God, and therefore, like God, must therefore be indestructable. Stop dodging.
    I'm not dodging, you are.
    I disagree with you. Are you surprized?

    What you are saying here is speculation. I don't believe it. I think it is a lie.
    But if it weren't a lie...what does it actually say? That God put some of Himself into man...and made things so that this part of Himself will burn forever if man uses his "free" will to sin against the very thing placed inside him.
    Not only is it nonsense, but it is circular. You insist that it must be so or eternal torment would not be true. I'm saying Hell is corrective...which would be more consistent with your position that the soul is immortal because it is made of "God stuff". You still haven't said anything of consequence that necessitates a belief in eternal torment.

    One of the biggest inconsistencies that you are ignoring is God never says anything at all about eternal torment when he tells Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And that death is the "wages" of sin...from cover to cover in the Bible...not eternal torment.

    You continue to ignore these salient points and refuse to even acknowledge that they, in fact, refute your premise. All so you can maintain your plausibility structure at the expense of credibility. You're believing a lie of Satan "you will not surely die" and thereby made death supreme even in light of Christ's complete victory over it.

    That you cannot see that, or are merely unwilling to admit it, I cannot tell.
    Last edited by logos_x; March 27th, 2006 at 12:24 PM.

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    In this discussion, as with all my discussions on this subject, one thing becomes glaringly obvious.

    There is a motivation that is difficult to justify on the part of damnationalists.

    They doubt universalism, they doubt annihilationism...but flat out refuse to doubt that their perceptions in regard to eternal torment might in fact be erroneous. This in spite of the fact that it deserves to be proved to be so in order for it to be believed.

    Why?

    Apologist, I'm curious. What motivates you to never question that eternal torment is true?

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    Quote Originally Posted by logos_x
    He cast them out "lest they eat of the tree of life and live forever".
    Yes it was a punishment but it was not eternal.
    Which is, of course, where our opinions, though the same scriptures are used, much be divergent.

    How do you know?
    Satanism
    Atheism
    Judaism
    Paganism and Heathanism

    Hell would motivate them.
    Pick 1 of two options:

    A) Either the soul is indestructable or
    B) Hellfire would consume it and burn it to ashes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos_x
    Hell will correct this oversight
    How can something static be corrected?

    Horse Hockey!
    Logos, i want to dance the disco with Elvis. Unfortunately, Elvis is dead, and he didn't dance the disco. Therefore, while i may desire it, there is no reason to think it will happen.


    I don't believe it. I think it is a lie.
    Sounds like your problem.

    But if it weren't a lie...what does it actually say? That God put some of Himself into man...and made things so that this part of Himself will burn forever if man uses his "free" will to sin against the very thing placed inside him.
    Sounds good to me!

    Sounds good to me

    Not only is it nonsense, but it is circular. You insist that it must be so or eternal torment would not be true. I'm saying Hell is corrective...which would be more consistent with your position that the soul is immortal because it is made of "God stuff". You still haven't said anything of consequence that necessitates a belief in eternal torment.
    Wrong. My logical argument is anything but circular. All that it requires is the concession that the soul issues from the being of God as opposed to being created from another substance. This is proven when it says that God "Breathed into man the breath of life." All else logically follows.

    One of the biggest inconsistencies that you are ignoring is God never says anything at all about eternal torment when he tells Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And that death is the "wages" of sin...from cover to cover in the Bible...not eternal torment.
    Unfortunately, that is your opinion. You openly conceded in your OP that Universalism is "A completely different way of viewing scripture." Likewise, however, because i view the Scriptures in a completely different light, your opinion and my opinion of what the bible says holds absolutely no grounds in this particular section of this topic.

    You're believing a lie of Satan "you will not surely die" and thereby made death supreme even in light of Christ's complete victory over it.
    Again, this is where Scripture alone fails to be sufficient. We are reading the exact same thing, and seeing two totally different things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apologist
    Which is, of course, where our opinions, though the same scriptures are used, much be divergent.
    Indeed.

    Pick 1 of two options:

    A) Either the soul is indestructable or
    B) Hellfire would consume it and burn it to ashes.
    Or, Hellfire consumes sin , evil, Hades...even death...from the entire Universe including souls.

    How can something static be corrected?
    Hmmm...must not be static!

    Logos, i want to dance the disco with Elvis. Unfortunately, Elvis is dead, and he didn't dance the disco. Therefore, while i may desire it, there is no reason to think it will happen.
    You, thankfully, could not cause such a thing to happen.
    We are talking about God...not you.


    Sounds like your problem.
    believe me, it isn't a problem.


    Sounds good to me!

    Sounds good to me
    Probably wouldn't sound very good to the vast magority of people, though. Nor to God.

    Wrong. My logical argument is anything but circular. All that it requires is the concession that the soul issues from the being of God as opposed to being created from another substance. This is proven when it says that God "Breathed into man the breath of life." All else logically follows.
    And it is bunk. Therefore eternal torment is bunk as well.


    Unfortunately, that is your opinion. You openly conceded in your OP that Universalism is "A completely different way of viewing scripture." Likewise, however, because i view the Scriptures in a completely different light, your opinion and my opinion of what the bible says holds absolutely no grounds in this particular section of this topic.
    Are you getting upset?

    Again, this is where Scripture alone fails to be sufficient. We are reading the exact same thing, and seeing two totally different things.
    Then...you conceed that there is no way to win this argument?

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