User Tag List

Results 1 to 3 of 3

Thread: One on One: sons of God and Nephilim - The Berean and Turbo

  1. #1
    Friendly Neighborhood Admin Turbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    5,316
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 13 Times in 13 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1036

    One on One: sons of God and Nephilim - The Berean and Turbo

    The Berean and I will be discussing whether the "sons of God" mentioned in Genesis 6 refers to fallen angels or normal men (perhaps Seth's descendants?), and therefore whether the "giants" (translated from the Hebrew word nephilim) were a crossbreed of humans and demons or just human.


    Genesis 6 (NKJV)

    1 Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.
    3 And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive[a] with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” 4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

    5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

    9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.

    I believe that fallen angels did in fact procreate with human women. I realize that that sounds pretty wild, but I think that's the interpretation that Biblical and historical record best support. In addition to the motive mentioned in Genesis 6 ("the daughters of men... were beautiful") I think these fallen angels may have wanted to further corrupt the human race generally, but more specifically they wanted to corrupt the Messianic line.

    Note that in Genesis 6:9 we read that Noah was "perfect in his generations." I believe this means that his DNA had not been corrupted; that his ancestors were all human.

    Note also that in verse 4 it is mentioned that there were "There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them." Some of these post-Flood giants are mentioned in Scripture, but I'll have to do some research to dig up the details because I haven't studied up on this topic for a couple years. But in a nutshell, Israel did encounter them among the heathen nations, and the danger of them intermarrying and corrupting the nation of Israel (and the Messianic line) may have been a reason that God commanded the Israelites to utterly destroy certain nations they warred against and not others.

    At some point these demons were punished and imprisoned by God for what they did (while other demons continue to operate unrestrained). Those remaining demons probably do not have the inclination to intermarry with women because they don't want to be imprisoned yet and there is no longer the possibility of corrupting the Messianic line.


    This is all just a summary for now. I plan on fleshing this out more in future posts as I (re)do some research. I don't expect you to respond to it point-by-point just yet.

    Also, as we go on hopefully we can discuss the arguments made in the two articles you posted from Hank Hanegraaff's site. It would probably be best if you would introduce those arguments here bit by bit. And of course anything else you want to add to them would be great, too.


    Now onto your questions:

    1) Do angels have DNA?
    I don't know. But apparently they can eat, sleep, and be washed, and unless the wicked men of Sodom were mistaken they could be known carnally:

    Genesis 19

    1 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground. 2 And he said, “Here now, my lords, please turn in to your servant’s house and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise early and go on your way.”
    And they said, “No, but we will spend the night in the open square.”
    3 But he insisted strongly; so they turned in to him and entered his house. Then he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.
    4 Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. 5 And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally.”

    And in the previous chapter, it seems that these same two angels had visited Abraham along with the LORD:

    Genesis 18

    1 Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, 3 and said, “My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant. 4 Please let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree. 5 And I will bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh your hearts. After that you may pass by, inasmuch as you have come to your servant.”
    They said, “Do as you have said.”

    6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah and said, “Quickly, make ready three measures of fine meal; knead it and make cakes.” 7 And Abraham ran to the herd, took a tender and good calf, gave it to a young man, and he hastened to prepare it. 8 So he took butter and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree as they ate.

    Does this mean that angels have intestines? I don't know. But it sounds like they can at least take on a form that is so similar to a man's that if some stopped by for a visit one might naturally offer them something to drink and ask them to stay for dinner. You might not even realize they weren't human:

    Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels. Hebrews 13:2

    Perhaps they can take on other forms as well, since Lucifer appeared as a serpent in the Garden.

    2) If Angels can take on biological human form, doesn't that imply that they can be killed like humans (stabbed, shot, posioned, electrocuted, hit by a drunk driver, forced to watch American Idol, etc)
    I don't think that taking on a humanlike form would necessarily make them mortal. However Lot didn't seem to keen on letting the Sodomites have their way with them.

    3) If fallen angels can impregnate human women can the human-demon hybrid offspring receive eternal salvation by accepting Jesus Christ?
    I would think that they could not.

  2. #2
    Friendly Neighborhood Admin Turbo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    5,316
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 13 Times in 13 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1036
    I see that this post turned out to be pretty long. I don't intend to make a habit of that.

  3. #3
    Over 4000 post club The Berean's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Wacky California
    Posts
    4,635
    Thanks
    12
    Thanked 704 Times in 442 Posts

    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    325403
    I want to thank Turbo for inviting me to participate in this one-on-one. The debate over what “sons of God” in Genesis 6:4 means has raged for centuries. Though there are plenty of supporters for various perspectives, I believe that the “Seth line” view is the one supported by the strongest Biblical evidence.

    Firstly, I would like to start by addressing Turbo’s initial post. In another thread I asked the “fallen angels” supporters if fallen angels can indeed take on real human form do they have human DNA? Turbo responded:

    I don't know. But apparently they can eat, sleep, and be washed, and unless the wicked men of Sodom were mistaken they could be known carnally:
    Genesis 19

    1 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground. 2 And he said, “Here now, my lords, please turn in to your servant’s house and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise early and go on your way.”
    And they said, “No, but we will spend the night in the open square.”
    3 But he insisted strongly; so they turned in to him and entered his house. Then he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.
    4 Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. 5 And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally.”
    From the context of Genesis 19, it obvious that neither Lot nor the wicked men of Sodom knew that the two “men” were in fact angels. Since they had the appearance of men the wicked men of Sodom thought they could have there way with them. Of course they found out either wise, being struck blind by the angels. Now, I agree on occasion, God gives His angels human form, for a specific purpose. Scripture gives examples of this. However, it is by God’s prerogative than He gives angels human form. The natural state of all angels is a spiritual form, without physical bodies. Angels cannot by themselves create human bodies for themselves. God has to give human form to them.

    Hebrews 1:13-14:

    13 But to which of the angels has He ever said:
    “ Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?
    14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?
    And Jesus said Luke 24:37-39:
    36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
    37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
    38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
    39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
    Whenever an angel appears in Scripture in human form, it is because God sent the angel(s) to perform a specific task that required the angel to have human form. But nowhere in Scripture do we have an angel with the ability to change into human form by their own prerogative and not God’s prerogative. Sometimes the angel will even say why they were sent, Genesis 19:13:

    12 Then the two men said to Lot, "Whom else have you here? A son-in-law, and your sons, and your daughters, and whomever you have in the city, bring them out of the place;

    13 for we are about to destroy this place, because (J)their outcry has become so great before the LORD that the LORD has sent us to destroy it."
    And in the previous chapter, it seems that these same two angels had visited Abraham along with the LORD:

    Genesis 18

    1 Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, 3 and said, “My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant. 4 Please let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree. 5 And I will bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh your hearts. After that you may pass by, inasmuch as you have come to your servant.”
    They said, “Do as you have said.”

    6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah and said, “Quickly, make ready three measures of fine meal; knead it and make cakes.” 7 And Abraham ran to the herd, took a tender and good calf, gave it to a young man, and he hastened to prepare it. 8 So he took butter and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree as they ate.

    Does this mean that angels have intestines? I don't know. But it sounds like they can at least take on a form that is so similar to a man's that if some stopped by for a visit one might naturally offer them something to drink and ask them to stay for dinner. You might not even realize they weren't human:
    Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels. Hebrews 13:2
    Again, the human form is not the angels’ natural form. Again we are talking about angels sent by God for a specific task to perform. I do not know why they ate the food. They don’t need sustenance to survive. There is a difference between having the appearance of a human and actually being human.

    I don't think that taking on a humanlike form would necessarily make them mortal. However Lot didn't seem to keen on letting the Sodomites have their way with them.
    I agree. Angels only take on human “appearance” and do not have actual human bodies with internal organs, DNA, blood, bones, etc. Thus they cannot be killed, cannot starve to death, and cannot impregnate human females. In all the examples you gave, we had examples of “good” angels, those loyal to God. There are no examples of “bad” angels appearing as human. Now there are examples of people possessed by demons but that is not the same thing.

    In my next post I’ll detail why I believe “sons of God” refers to people and not fallen angels.
    Last edited by The Berean; March 15th, 2006 at 11:24 AM.
    Your problem is not technology. The problem is YOU. You lack the will to change...You treat this planet as you treat each other. - Klaatu

    What are you talking about? There is no such thing as the "Mafia"......it doesn't exist. Just a bunch of lies told to defame honest hardworking Italians like myself. - TomO

    I will do you, let's see, goofy, wacky, and to the left side of the bell curve
    . -Ktoyou

    I'm white. I'm not black. I can't convert to being black. It doesn't matter how much I want to become black. I could listen to rap and date fat white women all day; for all that, I'll still remain white.- Traditio

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us