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Thread: Can someone deny the Deity of Christ...? - BATTLE ROYALE I - Freak vs. me again

  1. #31
    Your powers are weak, old man. Knight's Avatar
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  2. #32
    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Exclamation May We Go Back To The Topic Which Is...

    ...Can someone in the current dispensation of grace deny the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ and still become a member of the Body of Christ?

    Can someone like a Mormon (someone who rejects the Deity of Christ) and who believe Jesus is a spirit brother of Lucifer be a member of the Body of Christ? I believe the Scriptures say with clarity-NO!

    Second Corinthians 11:4 says, "For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached..."

    The Jesus the Apostles preached was a Divine Jesus (see Col. 2:9, 2 Peter 1:1-4). There is but One Jesus that is revealed in the Scriptures and He is God. A denial of this basic truth denies you the salvation that the true Jesus offers.

    Let's return to your attempted rebuttal of John 8, where Jesus clealry stated you must believe He is "I am" (God) to be saved. A denial of this will bar you from joining the Body of Christ.

    My concern exist with your poor treatment of John 8 and the clear sayings of Jesus. For you even claimed: "He was not saying ”You must believe that I am God to be saved.” You say this in spite of the overwhelming evidence that proves you dead wrong! Allow me to explain (for this is paramount-for Jesus claimed in this chapter you must believe who He claimed to be (God) in order to be saved). Though being a "scholar" does not guarantee instant infallibility in judgment, it should at least provide assurance of factual understanding. Given this, the scholars seem to feel that these passages in John 8:24 clealry state that Jesus claimed to be God:

    Augustine wrote: "...the whole unhappiness of the Jews was not that they had sin, but to die in sins...In these words, 'Except ye believe that I am,' Jesus meant nothing short of this, 'Except ye believe that I am God, ye shall die in your sins.' It is well for us, thank God, that He said except ye believe, and not except ye understand."

    Luther, like Augustine before him, wrote in no uncertain terms:

    "The Lord Christ is angry below the surface and says: "Do you want to know who I am? I am God, and that in the fullest sense. Do as you please. If you do not believe that I am He, then you are nothing, and you must die in your sin." No prophet, apostle, or evangelist may proclaim and say: "Believe in God, and also believe that I am God; otherwise you are damned." Or...

    William Hendrickson put it rather bluntly:

    "The "I am" here (8:58) reminds one of the "I am" in 8:24. Basically, the same thought is expressed in both passages; namely, that Jesus is God!" Or...

    Leon Morris has written,

    " 'I am' must have the fullest significance it can bear. It is, as we have already had occasion to notice...in the style of deity." (in a footnote on same page "ego eimi in LXX renders the Hebrew ani hu which is the way God speaks (cf. Deut. 32:39; Isa. 41:4, 43:10, 46:4, etc.). The Hebrew may carry a reference to the meaning of the divine name Yahweh (cf. Exod. 3:14). We should almost certainly understand John's use of the term to reflect that in the LXX. It is the style of deity, and it points to the eternity of God according to the strictest understanding of the continuous nature of the present eimi. He continually IS. Cf. Abbott: "taken here, along with other declarations about what Jesus IS, it seems to call upon the Pharisees to believe that the Son of man is not only the Deliverer but also one with the Father in the unity of the Godhead" (2228)." Or...

    A.T. Robertson certainly did not see any linguistic problems here:

    "I am (ego eimi). Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God." Or...

    The great expositor J. C. Ryle noted,

    "Let us carefully note what a strong proof we have here of the pre-existence and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. He applies to Himself the very name by which God made Himself known when He undertook to redeem Israel."

    In spite of this evidence Me Again claims that Jesus wasn't really claiming Deity in John 8. These Greek Scholars point to the fact that Jesus claimed God and you must believe He is God to be saved. In fact, all the translations bear this out, including:

    King James, New King James, New American Standard Bible, New International Version, Philips Modern English, Revised Standard Version, Today's English Version, Jerusalem Bible, New English Bible, American Standard Version, New American Bible, etc.

    As you can see the Greek Scholars, the translators, etc all see the "I am" in John 8:24, 58 (also in John 13:19, 18:5-6 which I will point out later in this post) as an absolute title for God. Jesus claimed to be God in this verse: Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins." You cannot reject Him being Deity and still be a member of His Body. For His Body is made up of those who accept His Divinity. Another passage that clearly points to the reality that one must receive Him as God is John 13:19: "From now on I tell you before it comes to pass in order that when it does happen, you may believe that I am." Who is "I am" in this verse but God. A Greek transliteration points this out: hina pisteusete hotan genetai ego eimi.

    Me Again, also states correctly: "We must confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord." But who is this Lord, isn't Lord rendered God. Can someone call Jesus Lord (in its purest Biblical form) and deny Him as God? That is absurd. I remember dealing with this in my last post when I said: "Did you not know what the Apostle Paul meant 'God" by the term "Lord" in verse 13 for example where he quotes from Joel 2:32 (Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered). In Joel 2 the writer is clearly referring to God as he mentions the Lord." Better rethink this in light of what Jesus said in the Book of John. You better believe one must confess Jesus is God, a denial of this bars you from being a member of the Body.

    In conclusion, in light of what the Scriptures state no one can call Him just "a god" (like the Mormons) or a great angel (like the JW's)that is not sufficient for faith. No! Jesus Himself laid down the truth and the truth is this: unless one believes Him for whom He says He is - the ego eimi - one will die in one's sins. There is no salvation in a false Christ (as Me Again would like for you to believe). If we are to be united with the Lord Jesus Christ to have everlasting life, then we must be united with the true Jesus Christ who is very God, not a false representation.
    Jesus Loves You

  3. #33
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    Exclamation The First Hurdle : The First Pillar : Romans 8:28

    We have a choice:
    • We can either make "surface postings" composed mostly of our personal opinions without scriptural support

      -- or --
    • We can do an expository analysis from the scriptures to support or bring down this issue, which you claim is salvational.
    I propose that we dig deeply into this matter so that we can "rightly divide the Word."

    We are starting to address too many various points, all concurrently. To give an expository analysis of everything that you have posted would probably take me a minimum of 500 pages of writing. I would like to save that for a doctoral dissertation, which could take four or five years.

    Subsequently, I am going to stick with your first argument from John 8:24 and will not move forward until you either answer my comments to your analysis or, if you simply disagree and do not wish to state why, then that too will be acceptable to me. But you cannot ignore what I have written.

    Having said that, I now move to your first pillar, Romans 8:28:

    • Posted by Freak:
      Let's return to your attempted rebuttal of John 8, where Jesus clealry stated you must believe He is "I am" (God) to be saved. A denial of this will bar you from joining the Body of Christ.
    How can we return to it when you did not give a rebuttal of my analysis of John 8:24? You have not commented on my posted analysis of it. For your sake, I will comment on John 8:24 for a third time. Let us post your scripture first, followed by your analysis of it:
    • Analysis by Freak:
      I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. (John 8:24) Jesus said here that if you do not believe "that I am" you will die in your sins. In Greek I am is 'ego eimi,' which means ‘I am.'
    I will comment one last time on my analysis of your interpretation. If you do not give a rebuttal or a personal analysis in return, then I will assume that you do not wish to address the topic of John 8:24 any further.

    Jesus said "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins" because he was referring to Himself as the One whom God had sent to save the Jews from their sins. He clearly said this six verses earlier in John 8:16b when he said "the Father sent me." Jay, do you acknowledge this statement? You interpret Jesus as saying:
    • "Ye must believe that Jesus is God to be saved."
    But I interpret Jesus as saying:
    • John 8:16b and John 8:24b

      If ye believe not that I am he [that was sent by the Father], ye shall die in your sins"


      -- or --

      If ye believe not that I am [the Messiah], ye shall die in your sins"

      -- or --

      If ye believe not that I am [the promised One], ye shall die in your sins"

      -- or --

      If ye believe not that I am [the Savior of Israel], ye shall die in your sins"

      -- or --

      If ye believe not that I am [the Savior of the world], ye shall die in your sins"

      -- or --

      If ye believe not that I am [the only one who can save you], ye shall die in your sins"
    This scripture does not say "Yes must believe that I am God to be saved."

    Now, let us move to your interpretative analysis of the Greek ego eimi and, after this (my third commentary on this), if you refuse to analyze it or comment on it, then I will believe that you either refuse to comment on it or you are unable to comment on it.
    • Posted by Freak:
      In Greek I am is 'ego eimi,' which means ‘I am.'
    Yes, we agree on this, so when the Centurian said "I am" in Matthew 8:9, we clearly understand that this does not infer that:
    • He is the great I AM
    • He is saying that you must believe that he is God or else you will die.
    He is simply referring to himself. That's all. Nothing more. There are no secret meanings in ego eimi. Let's look at the scripture itself, just to make it more clear:
    • I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. (Matt. 8:9)


    I have just given you two illustrations on why Jesus (in John 8:24) is not saying:
    • "Ye must believe that I am God in order to be saved."
    The theme of this particular post is to properly interpret John 8:24 and you can see how lengthy it has become. I will not move any further in this discussion until you either:
    • Analyze or comment on my rebuttal of John 8:24.
    • Or simply say that you disagree.
    But you can't simply blow past my analysis without at least a comment. It doesn't have to be expository.

    Before we begin posting 20 different (but related) topics, we must examine the pillars of your thesis. And Romans 8:28 is the first pillar that you posted as a crux for your argument.

    What do you think of my analysis of your interpretation of Romans 8:28?
    Favorite scripture:
    • And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Rev. 11:15)
    TheologyReview.com

  4. #34
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  6. #36
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    Exclamation NOW HEAR THIS.....

    The length of this bout has been changed to 10 rounds. I repeat.... the length of "Battle Royale I" is now officially 10 rounds.

    Which means EACH combatant has 6 more posts TOTAL to complete their argument.
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  7. #37
    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Arrow I believe the Greek Text is Clear in this Regard!

    The foremost Bible and Greek Scholars within Christendom agree that John 8:24: "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."

    Jesus Christ was clear-"For unless you believe I am, you will die in your sins."

    Who is this "I am", well according to the Greek Text it refers to God. As understood by the finest Greek scholars in Christendom.

    A.T. Robertson certainly did not see any linguistic problems here:

    "I am (ego eimi). Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God."

    Me Again are you telling me, that in your studies of the Greek Text that Dr. A.T. Robertson is incorrect in his understanding.

    Was Augustine wrong too when he states: "...the whole unhappiness of the Jews was not that they had sin, but to die in sins...In these words, 'Except ye believe that I am,' Jesus meant nothing short of this, 'Except ye believe that I am God, ye shall die in your sins.' It is well for us, thank God, that He said except ye believe, and not except ye understand."

    As was preeiment Greek Scholar, Dr. Leon Morris? He has written,

    " 'I am' must have the fullest significance it can bear. It is, as we have already had occasion to notice...in the style of deity." (in a footnote on same page "ego eimi in LXX renders the Hebrew ani hu which is the way God speaks (cf. Deut. 32:39; Isa. 41:4, 43:10, 46:4, etc.). The Hebrew may carry a reference to the meaning of the divine name Yahweh (cf. Exod. 3:14). We should almost certainly understand John's use of the term to reflect that in the LXX. It is the style of deity, and it points to the eternity of God according to the strictest understanding of the continuous nature of the present eimi. He continually IS. Cf. Abbott: "taken here, along with other declarations about what Jesus IS, it seems to call upon the Pharisees to believe that the Son of man is not only the Deliverer but also one with the Father in the unity of the Godhead" Where was Dr. Morris wrong, me again, I'd like to know?

    You said: If you do not give a rebuttal or a personal analysis in return, then I will assume that you do not wish to address the topic of John 8:24 any further

    I did give you a rebuttal for your incorrect understanding of the passage in John 8. In fact to prove my point I have resorted to those who excell in the Biblical Languages to prove my understanding of the passage at hand. We have also seen how the context of the passages themselves (look at what happened when Jesus claimed I AM) - the setting and teaching of the entire book of John (also one needs to do is take a glance at John 1:1, 14, etc) - makes the identification of "ego eimi" and its clear presentation of the Deity of Christ inevitable. We have seen how Apostle John purposefully (was not mere accident) emphasizes these phrases (believe I AM), helping us to grasp their significance which we cannot ignore.

    Unless you can point to me where these scholars are wrong in their understanding of the Greek in this passage, I will then assume you have nothing else to add to this debate regarding this passage.

    Me Again, it has been well said that the Apostle John intends the entire Gospel to be read through the "interpretive window" of the beginning of chapter 1:1-18*where Jesus is declared as the Word and Word was God*. Given the teachings of those passages, can one seriously doubt(given the Greek Textual evidence) the meaning of ego eimi in the above examined passages?

    ****

    Now, I'm still puzzled about this remark: "I am of the opinion that many cult members will be saved because of their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ." Do you still stand behind this fallacy? Do you still believe the Mormons who placed their faith in a Jesus (that is not God) who is a spirit brother of lucifer(like the Mormons) or some great angel(like the JW's) are truly saved in the light of the clear Scriptures I have pointed out in John 8 and 1 John 4?

    By the way I need some clarification regarding the statement: "We must confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord" I believe this but don't you believe the mere title "Lord" assumes He is God. For as I pointed out in my last post: Can someone call Jesus Lord (in its purest Biblical form) and deny Him as God? That is absurd. I remember dealing with this in my last post when I said: "Did you not know what the Apostle Paul meant 'God" by the term "Lord" in verse 13 for example where he quotes from Joel 2:32 (Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered). In Joel 2 the writer is clearly referring to God as he mentions the Lord." When Paul is speaking of confessing Jesus Lord is he not in essence saying you must confess Him (Jesus) as God, in light of the rendering of Joel 2 in relation to Romans 10?


    I am also worried you did not deal sufficently with my remarks regarding First John. The Apostle John says the following: "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world" (see 1 John 4). The above verse needs to be cross referenced with John 1:1,14 (also written by the Apostle John) where he states that the Word was God and the Word became flesh. 1 John 4:2-3 is saying that if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh then you are of the spirit of Antichrist. A anti-Christ is one who is not a member of the Body of Christ

    I believe I rest my case.
    Jesus Loves You

  8. #38
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    Exclamation So much for sticking with Romans 8:28

    If we're not going to stick with Romans 8:28, then it will be impossible to do an expository study on it. It will also be impossible to keep these postings short.

    Well, I have a hunch that you’re not going to provide any scriptures to prove that a man is damned if he does not accept that Jesus is God.
    Posted by Freak:
    Jesus Christ was clear-"For unless you believe I am, you will die in your sins."
    Yes, you keep reiterating your mantra without scriptural proof.
    Posted by Freak:
    Who is this "I am", well according to the Greek Text it refers to God.
    I presume you aren’t going to offer any new scriptures?
    Posted by Freak:
    "I am (ego eimi). Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God."
    He does not do that in John 8:24, but He does do that in John 8:58. This still does not prove your extra-biblical statement that:
    Posted by Freak:
    You must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.
    I’m waiting for you to prove it with the scriptures.
    Posted by Freak:
    I did give you a rebuttal for your incorrect understanding of the passage in John 8.
    We have also seen how the context of the passages themselves (look at what happened when Jesus claimed I AM) - the setting and teaching of the entire book of John (also one needs to do is take a glance at John 1:1, 14, etc) - makes the identification of "ego eimi" and its clear presentation of the Deity of Christ inevitable. We have seen how Apostle John purposefully (was not mere accident) emphasizes these phrases (believe I AM), helping us to grasp their significance which we cannot ignore.
    You never touched upon the use of ego eimi in the context of the Centurion. How does the Centurions use of ego eimi differ from that in John 8:28?

    Pray tell?
    Posted by Freak:
    Unless you can point to me where these scholars are wrong in their understanding of the Greek in this passage, I will then assume you have nothing else to add to this debate regarding this passage.
    Many people enjoy quoting:
    • Augustine
    • Joseph Smith
    • Leon Morris
    • Mary Baker Eddy
    • Abbott
    • Ellen G. White
    • A.T. Robertson
    • et al
    Many people enjoy the opinions of these other men and if you enjoy reading their writings, I’m happy for you. But instead of using their interpretations, I would prefer to stick to the scriptures and to your interpretation of them, based upon your own studies. Besides, if I wanted to use other authors, I too could ”cut-n-paste“ their opinions.
    Posted by Freak:
    I am also worried you did not deal sufficently with my remarks regarding First John. The Apostle John says the following: "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world" (see 1 John 4). The above verse needs to be cross referenced with John 1:1,14 (also written by the Apostle John) where he states that the Word was God and the Word became flesh. 1 John 4:2-3 is saying that if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh then you are of the spirit of Antichrist. A anti-Christ is one who is not a member of the Body of Christ
    Using ”cut-n-paste,” you have re-asked the exact same question (above) without giving specifics. Specifically, what is it that you disagree with? Before I attempt to answer your questions in greater detail, let’s first review the reply that I gave to your above listed quote:
    Posted by me again:
    I understand your attempt to correlate the above scriptures to fit your thesis, I simply disagree. Lets quote each of your referenced scriptures, from above, and see if the reader can come to Jay’s conclusion that “you must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.”
    • [color=blue]John 1:1,14
    • In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

      1John 4:2-3 [/I]
      Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
    After reading these scriptures, I simply do not draw the same conclusion as you do, Jay. Nowhere does it say that we must believe that Jesus is God in order to be saved. These scriptures say that the Word was with God in the beginning and that He was made flesh and that anyone who denies that Jesus Christ came in the flesh is from antichrist.
    I’m not sure how to say it in more simple terms than what is already posted: The scriptures that you referenced (above) say three things:
    • 1) The Word was made Flesh.
    • 2) Every spirit that says that Jesus Christ did not come in the flesh is not of God.
    • 3) The above two points are the spirit of antichrist.
    How do you construe that the above listed scriptures say:
    Posted by Freak:
    You must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.
    I simply do not see how you obtain the above quote from the scriptures that you referenced. This worries me.

    Posted by Freak:
    By the way I need some clarification regarding the statement: "We must confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord" I believe this but don't you believe the mere title "Lord" assumes He is God. For as I pointed out in my last post: Can someone call Jesus Lord (in its purest Biblical form) and deny Him as God? That is absurd. I remember dealing with this in my last post when I said: "Did you not know what the Apostle Paul meant 'God" by the term "Lord" in verse 13 for example where he quotes from Joel 2:32 (Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered). In Joel 2 the writer is clearly referring to God as he mentions the Lord." When Paul is speaking of confessing Jesus Lord is he not in essence saying you must confess Him (Jesus) as God, in light of the rendering of Joel 2 in relation to Romans 10?
    I am of the opinion that the Lord Jesus is one in mission and one in purpose with the Father, yet they are two separate beings. For example, when a policeman knocks on your door and when you ask ”Who is it?” and when he replies ”Police Department,” you know that the entire police department is not standing outside your door. But that officer is one with his department: And you recognize that fact. He comes with the full authority of his agency.

    I also believe that Michael the Archangel was actually the Lord Jesus Christ in his pre-human birth form. He came here with the authority of the Father. He is one with our Father, yet they are two separate entities. When the Second Coming occurs, the Lord Jesus Christ will come with the full authority of our Father.

    I said all of this to answer your question:
    Posted by Freak:
    Can someone call Jesus Lord (in its purest Biblical form) and deny Him as God? That is absurd.
    Yes, I deny that Jesus is God the Father. He is God the Son and He carries the full authority of our Father. When you say:
    Posted by Freak:
    You must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.
    Are you referring to:
    • God the Father

      -- or --
    • God the Son?
    Therein may lie some of our difficulties in our inability to agree. I am of the opinion that you believe that Jesus is the Father. Am I correct?
    Posted by Freak:
    Now, I'm still puzzled about this remark: "I am of the opinion that many cult members will be saved because of their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ." Do you still stand behind this fallacy?
    Your phraseology is rather interesting. If I dsiagree with you (which I do), then you leave me no choice but to reply ”Yes, I still stand behind this fallacy.” LOL

    Yes, a man may enter the kingdom of heaven if he believes in the Lord Jesus Christ with all his heart. His trust must be in Jesus and not in his denomination, not in other men and not in himself. His faith must be in Christ alone. He may wear the title of Jehovah Witness or Mormon or another Christian offshoot, even though they have many false teachings.

    Let me ask you a question in this regard. If a child is born into a cult (choose Mormonism or Jehovah Witness or whatnot) and if he is indoctrinated into their theology all his life: then that may be all he knows because that‘s what he grew up in and that‘s all he was ever taught.

    He wanted to make his parents happy because he was an obedient child, so he went to church and studied his Bible and, during the course of his “cult required studies,” they made him read about Jesus. Consequently, during his solitary prayer time, he accepts Jesus as his savior. He remains a faithful cult member up until the age of 15, whereupon he is killed in a terrible accident.

    Are you telling the reader that that young man is hell bound because he wears the mantle of a “cult member?”

    Posted by Freak:
    Do you still believe the Mormons who placed their faith in a Jesus (that is not God) who is a spirit brother of Lucifer (like the Mormons) or some great angel (like the JW's) are truly saved in the light of the clear Scriptures I have pointed out in John 8 and 1 John 4?
    Once again, your phraseology is unique. You are trying to force me, the square peg, into your round hole. If I disagree with you (and I do), then you leave me no alternative but to egregiously say ”Yes, I believe that people can be saved by the spirit brother of Satan.” LOL -- Jay, why are you trying to force such nonsense into my mouth?

    If a cult member goes to heaven, it is through the Lord Jesus Christ and through Him alone. If a Buddhist or a Hindu or a Moslem or [insert the person’s name here] goes to heaven, it is through Jesus. Jesus is the only way. Jesus is the only ticket. Jesus judges the heart and not you nor your labels.
    Favorite scripture:
    • And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Rev. 11:15)
    TheologyReview.com

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    DING DING DING

    Thats the end of round five. Battle Royale I is halfway over!

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    Exclamation Defense of the Truth

    I'm very concerned about some of your most recent remarks that I would like to look over in this post. First of all, I do commend you for taking the tone that you have during this formal debate. I have attempted to elevate these debates to a higher level of discussion.

    My concern however remains. I have continued to make my case using numerous Scriptures but centering on John 8:24 where Jesus once said: "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins." Jesus spoke rather clearly. I believe I have proven my point that unless one believes Him (Jesus) for whom He says He is - the ego eimi - one will die in one's sins. There is no salvation in a false Jesus. As I have noted in this passage it is the Son who utilizes the phrase ego eimi in the absolute sense (which all the foremost Greek scholars point out-I would also like to point out even the Early Church Fathers such as Irenaeus showed familiarity with it as "I am" as did Origen and Novatian. Chrysostom wrote, "As the Father used this expression, "I Am," so also doth Christ; for it signifieth continuous Being, irrespective of time), identifying Himself as Yahweh. Jesus is claiming Deity for He is Deity and the Jews understood this very clearly.

    Posted by Freak:
    Jesus Christ was clear-"For unless you believe I am, you will die in your sins."

    Me Again relies: Yes, you keep reiterating your mantra without scriptural proof. I had just quoted from John 8 not to mention I have been building a solid Scriptuural foundation to prove why I believe what I believe (with the support the Greek text and Greek scholars which by the way you have not dealt with).

    Posted by Freak:
    "I am (ego eimi). Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God." (a quote from A.T. Robertson)
    Me Again incorrectly states: He does not do that in John 8:24, Huh? A.T. Robertson was dealing with that particular verse. Dr. Leon Morris said the following about verse 24: 'I am' must have the fullest significance it can bear. It is, as we have already had occasion to notice...in the style of deity." (in a footnote on same page "ego eimi in LXX renders the Hebrew ani hu which is the way God speaks (cf. Deut. 32:39; Isa. 41:4, 43:10, 46:4, etc.). The Hebrew may carry a reference to the meaning of the divine name Yahweh (cf. Exod. 3:14). We should almost certainly understand John's use of the term to reflect that in the LXX. It is the style of deity, and it points to the eternity of God according to the strictest understanding of the continuous nature of the present eimi. He continually IS. Cf. Abbott: "taken here, along with other declarations about what Jesus IS, it seems to call upon the Pharisees to believe that the Son of man is not only the Deliverer but also one with the Father in the unity of the Godhead."

    Next...

    Me again states: I’m waiting for you to prove it with the scriptures.

    Start reading some of my posts and the Scriptural evidence I have provided.

    Now to the part that not only confused others on TOL but to me. You said in your last post: I am of the opinion that the Lord Jesus is one in mission and one in purpose with the Father, yet they are two separate beings.

    This is strange theology. According to Biblical theology there is in the Divine Being (note: not beings as you have stated but one being) but one "indivisible essence" (ousia, essentia). In this one Divine Being there are three Persons- Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The whole undivided essence of God belongs equally to each of the three persons (see Deuteronomy 4:35, 6:4, 10:14, Psalm 96:5, 97:9, Isaiah 43:10, 44:6-8, 44:24, 45:5-6, 45:21-23, 46:9, 48:11-12, John 17:3, 1 Timothy 2:5, Revelation 1:8,)

    Then it gets even stranger when you claim: I also believe that Michael the Archangel was actually the Lord Jesus Christ in his pre-human birth form. He came h

    Jesus the Son of God was not a angel, Me Again, in his pre-human form for He was/is God. Just simple common sense tells you since He is God He cannot be an "angel" even pre-Virgin birth. God does not change, the Son has always been the Son.

    You asked: I am of the opinion that you believe that Jesus is the Father. Am I correct?

    The answer is NO! You must believe Jesus is God in accordance to the Scriptures I have pointed. God the Father is the God the Father, God the Son is the God the Son, etc, there is a distinction with the Godhead as three persons in One God.

    You said: He may wear the title of Jehovah Witness or Mormon or another Christian offshoot, even though they have many false teachings.

    So, since you agree with me that they have a false teachings (esp. in regards to who Jesus is) there is no reason from this point on to defend your fallacy that they may be saved by placing their faith in Christ (they may place a faith in a false Christ).

    I'm still waiting for some kind of answer to the following vaild questions: By the way I need some clarification regarding the statement: "We must confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord" I believe this but don't you believe the mere title "Lord" assumes He is God. For as I pointed out in my last post: Can someone call Jesus Lord (in its purest Biblical form) and deny Him as God? That is absurd. I remember dealing with this in my last post when I said: "Did you not know what the Apostle Paul meant 'God" by the term "Lord" in verse 13 for example where he quotes from Joel 2:32 (Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered). In Joel 2 the writer is clearly referring to God as he mentions the Lord." When Paul is speaking of confessing Jesus Lord is he not in essence saying you must confess Him (Jesus) as God, in light of the rendering of Joel 2 in relation to Romans 10?

    And...well, I'll just wait until you answer this one....
    Jesus Loves You

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    Arrow Pencils or Crayons ?

    • Posted by Freak:
      I have continued to make my case using numerous Scriptures but centering on John 8:24 where Jesus once said:

      "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins."
    No, Jesus did not say that in John 8:28. We must look at what Jesus said first, in John 8:16 before we can understand the end of his statement in John 8:24. You are trying to isolate John 8:24 from John 8:16.

    I will demonstrate two things from John 8:28:
    • 1) That in John 8:28, Jesus is not claiming to be the great I AM.
    • 2) That in John 8:28, Jesus is claiming to be sent by God to save the Jews.
    First, I will prove the that your quote (following) is inaccurate:
    • Freak‘s Misinterpretation of Romans 8:28:
      Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins.
    Instead of mis-constructing Romans 8:28 (as is done above), I will simply quote it verbatim from several biblical translations of the bible:
    • NIV
      I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.
    • NASB
      Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.
    • AMP
      That is why I told you that you will die in (under the curse of) your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He [Whom I claim to be -- if you do not adhere to, trust in, and rely on Me], you will die in your sins.

      NLT
      That is why I said that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am who I say I am, you will die in your sins.
    All of the above quoete beg the question: Who is Jesus claiming to be?

    I will prove who Jesus is claiming to be in the above quotes by taking His direct words from John 8:16 where he clarifies what he meant in John 8:24. He claimed to be the One who was sent by God.

    In John 8:16 and 8:24, Jesus was judging the Jews. He claimed the authority to judge them by claiming to be ”sent from God.”

    Here, let us examine exactly what He said, verbatim:
    • NIV
      But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me.
    • NASB
      But even if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone in it, but I and the Father who sent Me.
    • AMP
      Yet even if I do judge, My judgment is true [My decision is right]; for I am not alone [in making it], but [there are two of Us] I and the Father, Who sent Me.
    • KJV
      And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
    The entire crux of John 8:16 and John 8:24 is that Jesus is claiming the authority to judge the Jews because He was sent by God. He said that if they didn’t believe that He had the authority to do this and if they rejected the idea that He was sent by God to judge them, then that is a form of rejecting God Himself. It is unrepentance and, consequently, they will die in their sins. He is not saying that:
    • Paraphrase of Freak:
      Ye must believe that I am the great I AM or you’ll be damned.
    I acknowledge to you that these scriptures (posted above) will have no immediate impact on you and you will not acknowledge them in any future thread. You will not acknowledge my analysis and my presentation of the above.

    Later, you pointed out that in John 8:58, He claimed to be the great I AM. I agree with you on this point. But it is egregious for you to jump to the conclusion that He is saying that the Christian must make a new confession of faith to be saved, to wit:
    • Paraphrase of Freak:
      Ye must believe that I am God or you’ll die in your sins.
    I’m glad you have used John 8:58, but it does not bolster your thesis.
    • Posted by Freak
      I believe I have proven my point that unless one believes Him (Jesus) for whom He says He is - the ego eimi - one will die in one's sins.
    This is my fourth request for you to address my analogy of the Centurions use of ego eimi in comparison to Jesus’ use of it. You have not addressed this topic, nay, not even once. For your sake, I will repost my rebuttal of your usage of ego eimi as a crux for proving that ”you must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.” Here is a repost:
    • Posted by Freak:
      In Greek I am is 'ego eimi,' which means ‘I am.'

    Yes, we agree on this, so when the Centurian said "I am" in Matthew 8:9, we clearly understand that this does not infer that:
    • He is the great I AM
    • He is saying that you must believe that he is God or else you will die.

    He is simply referring to himself. That's all. Nothing more. There are no secret meanings in ego eimi. Let's look at the scripture itself, just to make it more clear:
    • I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. (Matt. 8:9)
    I have just given you two illustrations on why Jesus (in John 8:24) is not saying:
    "Ye must believe that I am God in order to be saved."
    You never touched on my above comment, but you have the audacity to ask me to comment on your original argument? As if I never posted the above? We won’t get very far in our discourse if you don’t acknowledge my answers to you.

    Thus far, you keep posting the same, original argument, but you never touch upon my response to your original argument. If you are not going to address my rebuttal and if you are going to keep repeating your original argument, then I’m not sure what else to say to you. I wanted to do an expository analysis of ego eimi, but if we can’t move into a dissection of each other’s arguments, then we are only scratching the surface.

    I acknowledge to you that you will not address my rebuttal to you on the issue of ”ego eimi.”
    • Posted by Freak
      There is no salvation in a false Jesus.
    Amen. We agree and that is why the scriptures tell us:
    • Mat 24:24-27
      For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    My concern is that your trying to reduce a physical Jesus into a mystical, ethereal Jesus who can’t be seen with the eyes. It appears that you are trying to create a ”Jesus in the interoperated image of Jay Bartlett.” The above scriptural quote indicates that the Jesus whom we serve is going to physically return to this earth and ”every eye will see Him.”

    You cannot create an ethereal Jesus that is only subject to your interpretation. He won’t fit into your box.

    We both agree that Jesus is the great I AM and you have done a wonderful job of posting scriptures that validate this fact. However, in light of verbatim or analytical interpretative analysis, you have not posted one scripture that says
    • Paraphrase by Freak:
      Ye must believe that Jesus is God or you’ll go to hell.
    You keep proving that Jesus is the great I AM, you fail to prove that a candidate for salivation must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.
    • Posted by Freak:
      I had just quoted from John 8 not to mention I have been building a solid Scriptuural foundation to prove why I believe what I believe (with the support the Greek text and Greek scholars which by the way you have not dealt with).
    You have not addressed my rebuttal to your analysis of John 8. You have not presented one comment about my answer to your thesis. You have only repeated your original argument.

    Yes, you have thrown some names around, but I’m not interested in what Mary Baker Eddy or Joseph Smith or anyone else has to say because they have their own personal slants. Jay, I’m interested in [u]your[/b] investigative analysis. And I did comment on your usage of ego eimi, but you never commented on it. I’m surprised that you’re saying that I ”have no dealt with it.” Are you saying that you disagree with my analysis of ego eimi or are you saying that I haven’t conducted an analysis of ego eimi? If you’re saying that you disagree with the argumentative analysis that I have presented, then please share the specific point that you disagree with.
    • Posted by Freak:
      'I am' must have the fullest significance it can bear. It is in the style of deity.
    Does that include the Centurion’s usage of I am? Because he too used ego eimi. Again, please comment on my previous analysis of ego eimi.

    Jay, the following quote is merely ”cutting and pasting” which I am not interested in. Anybody can ”cut and paste” religious abstracts. This is not debate and it is not an expository discourse. You are relying on others opinions and on their interpretative analysis. I want [u]your[/b] knowledge from [u]your[/b] studies of the Word.

    Please!!! No more ”cut and pasting” like the following:
    • Posted by Dr. Leon Morris:
      'I am' must have the fullest significance it can bear. It is, as we have already had occasion to notice...in the style of deity." (in a footnote on same page "ego eimi in LXX renders the Hebrew ani hu which is the way God speaks (cf. Deut. 32:39; Isa. 41:4, 43:10, 46:4, etc.). The Hebrew may carry a reference to the meaning of the divine name Yahweh (cf. Exod. 3:14). We should almost certainly understand John's use of the term to reflect that in the LXX. It is the style of deity, and it points to the eternity of God according to the strictest understanding of the continuous nature of the present eimi. He continually IS. Cf. Abbott: "taken here, along with other declarations about what Jesus IS, it seems to call upon the Pharisees to believe that the Son of man is not only the Deliverer but also one with the Father in the unity of the Godhead.
    ”Cutting and pasting” is not discourse.
    • Posted by Freak:
      Start reading some of my posts and the Scriptural evidence I have provided.
    I have tried my best to analyze and interpret all of your postings. However, you have not commented on most of my rebuttals. Or am I wrong? Seriously?
    • Posted by Freak:
      Now to the part that not only confused others on TOL but to me. You said in your last post:
      I am of the opinion that the Lord Jesus is one in mission and one in purpose with the Father, yet they are two separate beings. This is strange theology.
    I believe that God the Father and God the Son are of one mind (have the same mission). However, I do not believe that Jesus is God the Father.
    • Posted by Freak for a second time, using cut-n-paste[/I]:
      I'm still waiting for some kind of answer to the following vaild questions: By the way I need some clarification regarding the statement: "We must confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord" I believe this but don't you believe the mere title "Lord" assumes He is God. For as I pointed out in my last post: Can someone call Jesus Lord (in its purest Biblical form) and deny Him as God? That is absurd. I remember dealing with this in my last post when I said: "Did you not know what the Apostle Paul meant 'God" by the term "Lord" in verse 13 for example where he quotes from Joel 2:32 (Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered).
      (me again’s insertion: Verse 13 of what scripture? Let me know and I’ll research this aspect for you) In Joel 2 the writer is clearly referring to God as he mentions the Lord." When Paul is speaking of confessing Jesus Lord is he not in essence saying you must confess Him (Jesus) as God, in light of the rendering of Joel 2 in relation to Romans 10?
    Please answer the question (which is inserted in blue above) and I will look into this for you.
    Favorite scripture:
    • And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Rev. 11:15)
    TheologyReview.com

  13. #43
    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Arrow Where do we go from here, Me Again?

    I believe I have made my points rather clear.

    At this point there's no much more to expplain about John 8. I believe the evidence which I have provided is overwhelming. I believe A.T. Robertson, Dr. James White, and others (whose work I have referred to often) is quite clear. These are men who have studied the issues carefully with the use of the original languages. I believe they have been gifted as teachers and offer a service to the body of Christ.

    My questions remain...
    Jesus Loves You

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    Angry TIME OUT

    We have very few post remaining and our time is very limited. It is time that we get feedback from an independent, impartial referee. I have the following questions for the ref:
    • Have I ignored Freak’s questions and, if so, which ones?
    • Has Freak ignored my rebuttals and, if so, which ones?
    • Have I responded (adequately, inadequately or not-at-all) to Freaks postulations? I believe that he is saying that I have not responded.
    • Has Freak responded (adequately, inadequately or not-at-all) to my rebuttals?
    • Is this debate limited to the Word of God? Or is the discussion to include other books? I was under the impression that the discussion was to be limited to the Word of God. I came here to debate Jay Bartlett and his interpretation of the scriptures.

      If Jay has to use the opinion of a human author to support his thesis, then I have won the championship and the belt belongs to me. Our eternal destiny rests exclusively with the Word of God and not with non-scriptural books nor the opinions of other men.

      A man’s eternal destiny must rest upon the Bible and not on other books. Consequently, if Freak is going to say that men are hellbound (if they don’t accept Jesus as God), then he must support his thesis with the Bible alone. Everything else is chaff.


    Ref, we need an impartial decision.
    Favorite scripture:
    • And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Rev. 11:15)
    TheologyReview.com

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    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    The Champion is Jesus who is God!

    Me Again,

    I believe I have answered your questions and have raised additional questions which I believe you have not dealt with properly. I have read the rules and understand the limitations I have in using Greek Scholars, theologians, etc in my posts. Men like D.A. Carson, Dr. James White, Augustine, and a host of others were scholars that I believe could shed some light into our discussions. They are well respected around the world by unbelievers and believers. In fact, I have cited their works in my various posts to have you examine their respective views which I hold dearly. I believe the Holy Scriptures have pointed out the many truths that I have sought to defend.

    I do not believe we need a ref. to point out errors you have made. I have already done that.

    I'm still waiting for answers regarding the usage of John 8:24, 1 John 4, Romans 10. I believe I have raised some pointed issues which you failed to deal with.

    The Scriptures which I have quoted from often have pointed to the fact that there is but One Jesus and He is God. You cannot divorce who is He is and of our salvation, as I have pointed out. You cannot deny that Jesus is God and be saved or that would leave all those Mormons who have received Christ as having salvation (but they deny Jesus and His Deity).

    I did not know we had "time outs" in this debate...
    Jesus Loves You

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