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Thread: Can someone deny the Deity of Christ...? - BATTLE ROYALE I - Freak vs. me again

  1. #16
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Exclamation How about this....

    BATTLE ROYALE #1 TOPIC

    Can someone in the current dispensation of grace deny the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ and still become a member of the Body of Christ?

    Can I get a "YES" on the above rephrased topic????
    Last edited by Knight; July 7th, 2002 at 02:10 PM.
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  2. #17
    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Talking YES! YES! YES!

    Go heads!
    Jesus Loves You

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    Talking

    Yes...
    • And thanks for the clarification.
    Favorite scripture:
    • And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Rev. 11:15)
    TheologyReview.com

  4. #19
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    I happen to be sitting in the presence of "becky" one of our most treasured assets at TheologyOnLine. She will assist me in the flipping of the coin.

    I have chosen "heads" will be Freak and "tails will be me again

    Here we go.....

    Becky flipped the coin and "heads" it is!

    Freak will post his opening statement first (he has 48 hours from the time on this post to complete his opening argument).

    Then when his opening argument has been posted me again will have 48 hours to post his opening argument.

    BATTLE ROYALE #1
    Can someone in the current dispensation of grace deny the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ and still become a member of the Body of Christ?

    Lets get it on!!!!!!

    Freak, you're first, the clock is running!
    Last edited by Knight; July 7th, 2002 at 02:10 PM.
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  5. #20
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Where is Howard Cosel when we need him?
    Last edited by Knight; July 7th, 2002 at 02:20 PM.
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  6. #21
    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Arrow Opening Remarks

    This debate is centered around this question:

    Can someone in the current dispensation of grace deny the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ and still become a member of the Body of Christ?

    The answer is clearly no!

    Why?

    For the following reasons:

    1. "I said, therefore, to you, that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24). Jesus said here that if you do not believe "that I am" you will die in your sins. In Greek I am is 'ego eimi,' which means ‘I am.' These are the same words used in John 8:58 where Jesus says "...before Abraham was, I am." Jesus Christ was claiming the Divine title by quoting Exodus 3:14 in the Greek Septuagint. (The Septuagint was the Hebrew Old Testament translated into Greek.) Jesus declared rather clearly in this verse that you must believe He is God in order to have your sins forgiven. A denial of this truth will result in one dying "in their sins".

    2. It is not simply enough to have faith, for faith in faith is not good enough. Faith is only as valid as what it is put in (in this case Jesus being very God). You must put your faith in the proper object (Jesus being very God). Cults (like the Christadelphians, Mormons, Jw's) have false objects of faith (denial that Jesus is very God); therefore, their faith is useless--no matter how sincere they are. If you put your faith in a door knob, then you will be in a lot of trouble on the day of judgment (only Jesus who is God is able to save). You might have great faith, but so what? It is in something that can't save you. Only God is able to forgive sins so you must believe Jesus is God to attain the forgiveness of sins. A denial of this truth is a basic denial of who He claimed to be.

    3. The Apostle John says the following: "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world" (see 1 John 4).
    The above verse needs to be cross referenced with John 1:1,14 (also written by the Apostle John) where he states that the Word was God and the Word became flesh. 1 John 4:2-3 is saying that if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh then you are of the spirit of Antichrist. A anti-Christ is one who is not a member of the Body of Christ.

    4. The Scriptures teach what is known as the "The Hypostatic Union - That Jesus is both God and man.
    The sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ - The blood atoning sacrifice of Christ is completely sufficient to pay the debt for the sins of the world. As God - Jesus must be God (note: must be God) to be able to offer a sacrifice of value greater than that of a mere man (one cannot deny this basic truth). He had to die for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). Only God could do that (you must believe this). As man - Jesus must be man to be able to be a sacrifice for man. As a man He can be the mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5).

    These are a few reasons why I believe the Scriptures teach that one cannot "deny the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ and still become a member of the Body of Christ."
    Jesus Loves You

  7. #22
    Journeyman me again's Avatar
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    Talking First Post (of me again)

    Opening Statement

    Using the scriptures, I will attempt to show you that a man who accepts the Lord Jesus as:
    • the Christ
    • the Messiah
    • and as the Son of God
    May enter the kingdom of heaven. However, there are additional stipulations. He must also believe:
    • that Christ was crucified for us, to absolve our sins.
    • that Christ died.
    • that Christ rose from the dead, physically.
    • that Christ sits at the right hand of God in power and in authority over all creation.
    • that Christ is coming again, physically to this earth and every eye will behold him.
    • that no man can get to the Father, except through Jesus.
    The true Christian must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ with all his heart, nothing misgiving.

    While I personally accept the Deification of Christ, is this acceptance an entry-level tenant of and for salvation? Must a man believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is God in order to go to heaven? The answer is ”No.” However, there will come a point when all who enter the kingdom of heaven will behold that the Lord Jesus Christ is, indeed, God in the flesh. Nonetheless, I re-raise the question: Is this a tenant for entry-level salvation? Again, the scriptural answer is clearly ”No.”

    There are no scriptures that stipulate that a man must confess ”Jesus is God” in order to be saved. The scriptures do indicate that we must confess Jesus as our Lord if we wish to be saved. However, this elemental requirement is not the same as saying that "Jesus is God."

    In our next post, we will:
    • Examine the scriptures that support this opening statement.
    • Rebut Freak's first post.
    End of Opening Statement
    Favorite scripture:
    • And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Rev. 11:15)
    TheologyReview.com

  8. #23
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    ALL POSTS WILL BE DELETED FROM THIS THREAD EXCEPT FOR FREAK'S and "me agains" - and of course mine (Knight).

    If you want to discuss this topic or this debate please visit the BATTLE TALK thread.

    That is the end of round #1. Freak is back on the clock and there are 19 posts per combatant to go. Good luck gentlemen and may God be with you both.
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  9. #24
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    P.S. Excellent formatting and length of round one - great job combatants!

    P.S.P.S. I may not notice unwarranted posts immediately so please be patient. I will delete them as fast as I see them. In fact you may want to shoot me OR BECKY an e-mail if you see one that hasn't been deleted yet.

    Unwarranted posts = posts in this thread made by anyone other than Freak, me again, Knight or Becky.
    Last edited by Knight; July 7th, 2002 at 04:39 PM.
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  10. #25
    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Arrow Clearly the Holy Scriptures teach that one must believe Jesus is God to be saved...

    Allow me to go back to my opening remarks:

    1. "I said, therefore, to you, that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24). Jesus said here that if you do not believe "that I am" you will die in your sins. In Greek I am is 'ego eimi,' which means ‘I am.' These are the same words used in John 8:58 where Jesus says "...before Abraham was, I am." Jesus Christ was claiming the Divine title by quoting Exodus 3:14 in the Greek Septuagint. (The Septuagint was the Hebrew Old Testament translated into Greek.) Jesus declared rather clearly in this verse that you must believe He is God in order to have your sins forgiven. A denial of this truth will result in one dying "in their sins".

    Is spite of what the Scriptures teach, Me again, says: There are no scriptures that stipulate that a man must confess ”Jesus is God” in order to be saved.

    Looks like to me that the Holy Scriptures teach quite clearly that you must believe Jesus is "I am" (God).

    In my second point I said:

    2. It is not simply enough to have faith, for faith in faith is not good enough. Faith is only as valid as what it is put in (in this case Jesus being very God). You must put your faith in the proper object (Jesus being very God). Cults (like the Christadelphians, Mormons, Jw's) have false objects of faith (denial that Jesus is very God); therefore, their faith is useless--no matter how sincere they are. If you put your faith in a door knob, then you will be in a lot of trouble on the day of judgment (only Jesus who is God is able to save). You might have great faith, but so what? It is in something that can't save you. Only God is able to forgive sins so you must believe Jesus is God to attain the forgiveness of sins. A denial of this truth is a basic denial of who He claimed to be.

    According to Me again one can: "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ with all his heart" and deny He is God and still be a Christian. So, Me again, does it matter if the Mormons who believe Jesus with all their heart and that they believe He is the brother of the devil begotten through sexual intercourse from a god and goddess who used to be people on another planet (see Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie, p. 321)? Do we need to know who this Jesus is? My Savior, Jesus Christ, is God.

    A look at 1 Corinthians 15 points the Gospel out rather clearly in the light of the Scriptures I have mentioned: "Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures" (NIV).
    Within these verses are the essentials of the Christian Faith: Jesus Christ is God in flesh (John 1:1,14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9); Salvation is received by faith in Christ (John 1:12; Rom. 10:9-10), therefore it is by grace; and the resurrection is mentioned in verse 4. Therefore, this Gospel message automatically includes the essentials. You cannot divorce the Jesus who is declared as God as being nothing else but God in this passage (1 Corinthians 15).

    Again, we see the clarity of God's Word. You cannot deny who Jesus is (He is God) and be a geniune believer in the light of these clear Scriptures.
    Jesus Loves You

  11. #26
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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  12. #27
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    Thumbs up SECOND POST (of me again)

    To prevent this post from becoming too long, I will do two things:
    • I will place my initial rebuttal to Freak’s thesis in this post

      -- and --
    • I will expound on my opening statement in a different post.
    Rebuttal
    • Freak‘s Point #1:

      "I said, therefore, to you, that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24). Jesus said here that if you do not believe "that I am" you will die in your sins. In Greek I am is 'ego eimi,' which means ‘I am.' These are the same words used in John 8:58 where Jesus says "...before Abraham was, I am." Jesus Christ was claiming the Divine title by quoting Exodus 3:14 in the Greek Septuagint. (The Septuagint was the Hebrew Old Testament translated into Greek.) Jesus declared rather clearly in this verse that you must believe He is God in order to have your sins forgiven. A denial of this truth will result in one dying "in their sins".
    I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is the great ”I AM.” The burning bush that spoke to Moses was none other then Jesus!!! However, the Greek ego eimi in John 8:58 and in John 8:24 does not prove your thesis that ”a man must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.” I will expound on what the scriptures say about salvation when I expand on my opening remarks. But first, I want to address your thesis.

    Let’s examine the verbatim words of Jesus in the scripture that Freak is using to support his thesis:
    • John 8:24
      I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
    I interpret the words of Jesus as follows:
    • I am the Messiah!!! I am the promised One!!! I am He who God has sent!!! You must believe in Me or you will die in your sins!!!
    If we look at the sixth previous verse in John 8:16b, we clearly see that the scripture says that “Jesus is the Man whom God has sent.” Let’s review this scripture:
    • Jo 8:16b
      . . . the Father that sent me.
    If we put John 8:24 in the proper context, we see that Jesus is saying:
    • That God sent Him

      -- and --
    • That He is the Messiah.
    Let’s look at some other translations, in addition to the KJV Bible to corroborate this:
    • NIV
      I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. (John 8:16b) I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins. (John 8:24)

      NASB
      I am not alone in it, but I and the Father who sent Me. (John 8:16b) Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins. (John 8:24)

      AMP
      I am not alone [in making it], but [there are two of Us] I and the Father, Who sent Me. (John 8:24) That is why I told you that you will die in (under the curse of) your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He [Whom I claim to be -- if you do not adhere to, trust in, and rely on Me], you will die in your sins. (John 8:24)
    Jesus is claiming to be the Man whom the Father has sent!!! To suggest that this scripture (John 8:24) is telling us that we must confess ”Jesus is God” to be saved is unreasonable and unscriptural.
    • Freak‘s Point #2:

      It is not simply enough to have faith, for faith in faith is not good enough. Faith is only as valid as what it is put in (in this case Jesus being very God). You must put your faith in the proper object (Jesus being very God). Cults (like the Christadelphians, Mormons, Jw's) have false objects of faith (denial that Jesus is very God); therefore, their faith is useless--no matter how sincere they are. If you put your faith in a door knob, then you will be in a lot of trouble on the day of judgment (only Jesus who is God is able to save). You might have great faith, but so what? It is in something that can't save you. Only God is able to forgive sins so you must believe Jesus is God to attain the forgiveness of sins. A denial of this truth is a basic denial of who He claimed to be.
    I am only going to comment on selected ideas from the above listed paragraph, to wit:
    • Posted by Freak:
      You must put your faith in the proper object (Jesus being very God).
    I can find no scripture that says, ”You must confess that Jesus is God to be saved.” If you will provide a scripture, I will examine it.
    • Posted by Freak:
      Cults (like the Christadelphians, Mormons, Jw's) have false objects of faith (denial that Jesus is very God); therefore, their faith is useless--no matter how sincere they are.
    Faith is a matter of the heart and only God can see into the heart of a man. I am of the opinion that many cult members will be saved because of their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. While they may have been born and raised in a cult, the Lord Jesus knows the sincerity of their heart towards Him. I think that it is wrong of you to automatically condemn a cult member to hell because you do not know the circumstances of their life. You do not know how they came to be in a cult. Neither do you know their relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. That relationship is special and is exclusively between them and Him.

    There are many reasons why people join cults. Some are born into it. Some were enlisted as children, as teenagers or as adults through a myriad of ways that are too numerous to postulate here. The point is simple: People learn about Jesus through cults, through churches, through missionaries and, in select cases, through personal visits of Jesus Himself (my own case and the Apostle Paul come to mind). Once people learn about the Lord Jesus, the promptings of the Holy Spirit gently guides their hearts into His truths.

    All of us are on different paths and we were all born into different circumstances. Some travel down the path of hard labor while a few are born into a life of wealth and ease. Our many different paths are restricted by caste systems, cultural biases, racial or ethnic differences, countries of origin and other innumerable differences. What is ironic is that the Lord Jesus Christ is familiar with the backgrounds and paths of each and every one of us, believers and unbelievers alike. He knows where our intellectual growth was stunted and, as our Chief Judge, he knows why it was stunted. He knows the obstacles in our paths that hindered us and that prevented us from becoming the full potential of “being created in the image of God.” But the battle for us isn’t over yet. He’ll take each and every case on an individual basis He’ll do two things:
    • He’ll judge us righteously, as only He can do, based upon the knowledge that we have.
    • He’ll improve us, no matter what our station in life is. We were a mess when we came to Him, but He did not reject us. He picked us up and stood us up on our feet and gave each and every one of us a ”special calling” that is unique to our life. Our calling is unique to us, to our lives, to our circumstances and to our surroundings. As a result of His calling upon our lives, those who are around us are blessed because of Him. When He blesses us, those who are around us are inevitably blessed. And it‘s all because of Jesus.
    This same Jesus is looked upon by members of every nation, kindred, tongue and tribe of the earth. The salvic requirement is that we accept Jesus for who He is:
    • The only begotten Son of God, the first fruits of many to come.
    I can find no scripture that says ”Ye must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.” Nay, not one.
    • Posted by Freak:
      Only God is able to forgive sins so you must believe Jesus is God to attain the forgiveness of sins.
    No, I disagree with you. You have not provided one scripture to support your hypothesis. The scriptures clearly state that only faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, coupled with repentance, brings forgiveness:
    • Rom 10:10
      For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

      Act 2:38
      . . . Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins . . .
    Jay, the following statement comes from you and you alone and it cannot be found in the Bible:
    • Posted by Freak:
      You must believe Jesus is God to attain the forgiveness.
    You cannot legitimately turn this extra-biblical statement into a cannon of salvation. It is unscriptural.
    • Freak’s Point #3:

      The Apostle John says the following: "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world" (see 1 John 4). The above verse needs to be cross referenced with John 1:1,14 (also written by the Apostle John) where he states that the Word was God and the Word became flesh. 1 John 4:2-3 is saying that if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh then you are of the spirit of Antichrist. A anti-Christ is one who is not a member of the Body of Christ.
    I understand your attempt to correlate the above scriptures to fit your thesis, I simply disagree. Lets quote each of your referenced scriptures, from above, and see if the reader can come to Jay’s conclusion that “you must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.”
    • Scriptures Posted by Freak:

      John 1:1,14
      In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

      1Jo 4:2-3
      Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
    After reading these scriptures, I simply do not draw the same conclusion as you do, Jay. Nowhere does it say that we must believe that Jesus is God in order to be saved. These scriptures say that the Word was with God in the beginning and that He was made flesh and that anyone who denies that Jesus Christ came in the flesh is from antichrist.
    • Freak’s Point #4:

      The Scriptures teach what is known as the "The Hypostatic Union - That Jesus is both God and man. The sufficiency of the sacrifice of Christ - The blood atoning sacrifice of Christ is completely sufficient to pay the debt for the sins of the world. As God - Jesus must be God (note: must be God) to be able to offer a sacrifice of value greater than that of a mere man (one cannot deny this basic truth). He had to die for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). Only God could do that (you must believe this). As man - Jesus must be man to be able to be a sacrifice for man. As a man He can be the mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5).
    Once again, I understand your attempt to correlate the above scriptures to fit your thesis, but I simply disagree and do not draw the same conclusions that you are drawing. Again, let’s quote each of your referenced scriptures to see if the reader can come to your conclusion that “you must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.”
    • Scriptures Posted by Freak:

      1Jo 2:2
      And [Jesus] is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

      1Ti 2:5
      For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
    Nowhere does it say that we must believe that Jesus is God in order to be saved. It simply says that the Lord Jesus Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the entire world and that He is the only mediator between God and mankind.
    • Freak’s Point #5:

      According to Me again one can: "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ with all his heart" and deny He is God and still be a Christian. So, Me again, does it matter if the Mormons who believe Jesus with all their heart and that they believe He is the brother of the devil begotten through sexual intercourse from a god and goddess who used to be people on another planet (see Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie, p. 321)? Do we need to know who this Jesus is? My Savior, Jesus Christ, is God.
    Let me address your points one-by-one:
    • Posted by Freak:
      Does it matter if the Mormons, who believe Jesus with all their heart, and that they believe He is the brother of the devil, begotten through sexual intercourse from a god and goddess who used to be people on another planet, (see Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie, p. 321)?
    Jay, it is difficult to address your question because within your question, your have levied a judgment that is reserved exclusively for God. You have judged their heart, in reference to their relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. You said:
    • Posted by Freak:
      Snip…
      Mormons, who believe Jesus with all their heart…
    In reference to their heart, I can only tell you what the scriptures tell us:
    • Rom 10:9-10
      That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    There are varying degrees of deception and of Biblical knowledge. As I stated earlier, I believe that some cult members will be saved, due to their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. For you to presuppose that a man is damned, just because he was born and raised and taught in a cult, is rather presumptuous of you. I would not want to be in your shoes on judgment day when you have to answer to the Lord Jesus Christ as to why you vociferously damned some of His sheep. But that is between you and Him.
    • Posted by Freak:
      Snip…
      Does it matter if the Mormons believe [Jesus] is the brother of the devil, begotten through sexual intercourse, from a god and goddess, who used to be people on another planet…
    Yes, I think it does matter. Again, there are varying degrees of deception. Conversely, do you acknowledge that you may be doctrinally deceived in some of your interpretational analysis’s of the scriptures? Or do you claim absolute knowledge in all scriptural areas, just as the Mormons do? If you are wrong in one doctrinal area (as the Mormons are), then are you damned (as you say they are damned)? Is your judgmental methodology a two-way street?

    These are tough questions and I would not damn you, just as I would not damn the Mormons because that is reserved exclusively for God. I would not presume to levy His judgment on others because I do not know the circumstances of their lives. I don’t know what led them up to their deception. Neither do I know what led you up to your deceptive conclusion that ”a man must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.” Neither do I judge your eternal destiny for your heretical conclusion.

    Conclusion

    In conclusion, Jay has not provided one scripture to support his thesis that ”a man must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.” Jay has incorrectly used several scriptures as proof texts to incorrectly prove the validity of his thesis. I have taken every one of those scriptures and have contextually examined them here in this thread and have found that they do not substantiate his thesis.
    Favorite scripture:
    • And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Rev. 11:15)
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    Exclamation END OF ROUND TWO

    DING DING DING.

    NOTE: "me again" your last response was a tad long. No big deal this time but's let's do our best to keep this easier to follow - short and sweet!

    Good job combatants!
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  14. #29
    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Arrow The Scriptural Evidence is Overwhelming...

    In this post I will demonstrate the overwhelming Scriptural evidence that points to the fact that no one can "in the current dispensation of grace deny the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ and still become a member of the Body of Christ."

    In my first point I stated quite clearly: "Jesus said here that if you do not believe "that I am" you will die in your sins. In Greek I am is 'ego eimi,' which means ‘I am.' These are the same words used in John 8:58 where Jesus says "...before Abraham was, I am." Jesus Christ was claiming the Divine title by quoting Exodus 3:14 in the Greek Septuagint. (The Septuagint was the Hebrew Old Testament translated into Greek.)

    Your rebuttal was: I interpret the words of Jesus as follows:
    I am the Messiah!!! I am the promised One!!! I am He who God has sent!!! You must believe in Me or you will die in your sins!!!

    What about admitting that Jesus also claimed to be God, the great "I AM"? Which Jesus did in John 8. In fact, "I am" (ego eimi) occurs three times in this discourse and it points to the Divine Title of "I am". Every commentary I have looked at points this out (see The Expositor's Bible Commentary, Merrill C. Tenney). My points still stand uncontested: "I said, therefore, to you, that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24). Jesus said here that if you do not believe "that I am" you will die in your sins. You must believe Jesus is God. You cannot deny this truth.

    Amazingly, you said (in response to my second point): I am of the opinion that many cult members will be saved because of their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

    The Apostle Paul says in response to your claim: But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!" (NIV).

    Me Again, the Jw's (a cult) have placed their faith in Jesus. Does that make them a Christian even though they believe in "another Jesus" (as Paul says in 2 Cor. 11). Even when the JW's teach that Jesus was the Archangel Michael?

    Me Again, there is but one true Jesus Christ for men to receive salvation (Acts 4:12) and He is God (John 20:28). You cannot divorce this truth/reality from Him. To do so is a spiritual crime.

    Your rebuttal of my third point was astounding. You said: Nowhere does it say that we must believe that Jesus is God in order to be saved.

    I believe the Apostle John made himself clear in 1 John 4:2-3 is saying that if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh then you are of the spirit of Antichrist. A anti-Christ is one who is not a member of the Body of Christ.

    When John is speaking of Jesus here is he divorcing the fact He is Deity? Of course not? For he declared Jesus is God (John 1:1). So if you deny Jesus and who He is (while He was flesh He was God-simply cross reference to John 1:14) you cannot be of God.

    My fourth point was not dealt with so let's try again. Jesus (who is completely God) is able to forgive sins. Could someone attain the forgiveness of sins from "a Jesus" who they did not believe was God? Could only God forgive sins (since Jesus is God) He is able to those who believe He is.

    Your final rebuttal was quoting Romans 10. Did you not know what the Apostle Paul meant 'God" by the term "Lord" in verse 13 for example where he quotes from Joel 2:32 (Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered). In Joel 2 the writer is clearly referring to God as he mentions the Lord. Me Again, can someone make Jesus "Lord" (in essence God of their lives) but reject He is God? Did not Psalms 100:3 (and John 17:3) tells us to "Know that the Lord is God?" Who is the Lord Jesus but God which one cannot deny if they want to be saved.
    Jesus Loves You

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    Lightbulb I (1473) am (1510) = ego eimi (in Greek)

    • Posted by Freak:
      You must believe Jesus is God to attain the forgiveness.
    No, you do not have to believe that Jesus is God to enter the kingdom of heaven and we’ll review some of your alledged proof texts that you used to support your erroneous thesis.

    Shall we begin?
    • Posted by Freak:
      I stated quite clearly: "Jesus said here that if you do not believe that I am" you will die in your sins. In Greek I am is 'ego eimi,' which means I am.' These are the same words used in John 8:58 where Jesus says "...before Abraham was, I am." Jesus Christ was claiming the Divine title by quoting Exodus 3:14 in the Greek Septuagint. (The Septuagint was the Hebrew Old Testament translated into Greek.)
    Let’s note some interesting facts about the above:
    • You are correct to note that the Greek I am in Romans 8:58 and in John 8:24 is translated from the Greek ego eimi.” Let’s review those two scriptures for the reader:

    • John 8:24
      I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.


      Here, we note that Jesus is stating that if they do not believe that He is:
      1) The Messiah
      2) The promised One
      3) The One sent by God the Father
      Then they will be damned. Earlier in John 8:16b, Jesus said that He was sent by the Father:

      . . . the Father, who sent me. (NIV, NASB, AMP and NLT translations).

      Without accepting Jesus, then they will be damned. They must give their unconditional faith to Him to be saved. That is exactly what Jesus was saying to them. He was not saying ”You must believe that I am God to be saved.”

      Additionally and as you pointed out, the I am in this scripture is translated from the Greek ego eimi, but this does not prove that Jesus is saying ”Ye must believe that I am God to be saved.” Using your method of interpretational analysis, others in the Bible would be making the same claim of being the great I AM of the Old Testament. For example, the Centurion in the book of Matthew said:

      I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. (Matt. 8:9)

      The Centurion also used the same Greek words: ego eimi. However, using common sense, we understand that he is not claiming to be the great I AM of the Old Testament. You have incorrectly assumed that because the Lord Jesus used the Greek ego eimi, that He was claiming to be the great I AM. In this particular application in John 8:24, Jesus is claiming to be the Messiah. I must reiterate that in John 8:24, Jesus did not say ”Ye must believe that I am God to be saved.”

      Later, Jesus did claim to be the great I AM:

    • Joh 8:58
      Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.


      In this scripture, Jesus is claiming to be the great I AM, to wit:

      Exodus 3:14
      And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.


      We clearly see that Jesus is claiming to be the Voice that was speaking to Moses from the burning bush, but nowhere does it say ”Ye must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.” While Jesus is divine, I can find no scripture requiring that this confession be made to be saved. You are adding to scripture when you tell people that this is a requirement to be saved.

      Now let’s review what the scriptures do say about the requirements for salvation:

      Rom 10:9-10
      That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


      This one is my favorite because it is the one that the Lord used to save me. I was alone and was audibly praying to Him and I said, ”Lord, I guess I’m going to heaven because the Bible says that if we believe in Jesus with all our hearts, then we will be saved. Suddenly, He spoke to me in an audible voice and he said twice You will enter the kingdom of heaven. You will enter the kingdom of heaven.

      At that time, I had no idea that Jesus was God in the flesh and, consequently, I did not believe it (of course, I didn’t disbelieve it either ). I had never made Freak’s extra-Biblical statement ”Ye must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.”

      The simplicity of this scripture is marvelous. It clearly says:
    • We must confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord.
    • We must believe that God raised Jesus from the dead.
    • Because man believes with his heart unto righteousness (Isiah 54:17).
    • And with the mough, confession is made unto salvation.

      Confession of what? Of the above scriptural tenants!!!

      Act 4:12
      Neither is there salvation in any other [name, except Jesus Christ]: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


      Only through the name of the Lord Jesus Christ can a man be saved.

      Rom 1:16-17
      For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written. The just shall live by faith.


      We accept the Gospel of Christ for our salvation and, subsequent to that, we live by faith.

      Eph 1:10-13
      That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,


      When we truly believe (with all our heart), then the Lord seals us with His Holy Spirit. But only He knows who is truly sealed. Many who claim to be His are not sealed with His Holy Spirit. They are living a lie. They have a form of Godliness, but they deny the power thereof.

      2Ti 3:15b
      The holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.


      Only faith in the Lord Jesus Christ will save a man.

      Heb 5:9
      And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


      We must obey Him.

      Heb 9:28
      So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


      We must look for Him.

      1Pe 1:3-7
      Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold thatperisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:


      God’s power keeps us because of our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.


    Jay Bartlett, you have not presented a scripture that says ”You must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.” Nay, not one.
    Favorite scripture:
    • And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Rev. 11:15)
    TheologyReview.com

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