The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

Francisco

New member
Apollos,

Jerry and I debate many issues regularly, so I think I'm beginning to know the guy fairly well. At one time, I also thought he was just intellectually dishonest because he failed to answer direct questions.

However, I no longer hold that opinion. I think Jerry sometimes is looking at a different aspect of the same issue, and so when he answers by using another verse to explain his position, he is answering sincerely. If his answer still doesn't satisfy a specific question, I just ask again, and eventually he answers. I have confidence he will answer the questions I've presented above.

Thanks for the encouragement.

God Bless,

Francisco
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Francisco,

Show me just one verse where anyone in Scripture says that submitting to the rite of "water baptism" saves the sinner from eternal desctruction and I will address it.

In HIs grace,--Jerry
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
Apollos,

Who was to receive the HS baptism,you ask?

Well,the Lord Jesus referred to that baptism as "the promise of the Father"(Acts1:4).And that promise can be found in regard to the New Covenant that was promised to "the house of Israel and with the house of Judah"(Jer.31:31):

"And I will put MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU,and cause you to walk in My statutes,and ye shall keep My ordinances,and do them"(Ez.36:27).

That promise was not only to the Apostles,but to all of Israel.

Just because all of them did not have the outward manifestation of the Holy Spirit does not mean that they were not baptized with the Holy Spirit.There are gifts of the Holy Spirit that are not outward signs.You can see that they all were empowered by the Holy Spirit,as we read that they "continued daily with one accord in the temple,and breaking bread from house to house,did eat their food with gladness and singleness of heart"(Acts2:46).

They were so much of "singleness of heart" that they "sold their possessions and goods,and parted them to all men,as every man had need"(v.45).

They had received the promise of the new heart also:

"And a new heart also will I give you;and a new Spirit will I put within you"(Ez.36:26).

And it is very interesting that the very next chapter of Ezekiel describes the "regeneration" of the nation of Israel.And that "regeneration" is a TYPE that represents the "regeneration" of the sinner.

There we see a valley full of bones,and "those bones are the whole house of Israel"(Ez.37:11).We see that once the bones "hear the word of the Lord" then "the breath (ruah--spirit) came into them,and they lived..."(Ez.37:10).

And that is exactly the way that the sinner is regenerated when He is "born of the Spirit":

"Being born again,not of corruptible seed,but of incorruptible,BY THE WORD OF GOD"(1Pet.1:23).

When the sinner hears and believes the word of God that comes in the power of the Holy Spirit (1Pet.1:12;1Thess.1:5) he is born again,born of God,and born of the Spirit.That is how the sinner receives salvation.

No need for even a drop of water!

In His grace,--Jerry

Apollos,

You accuse me of not answering your post.You even go so far as to say that I did not answer it because you suspect that I am "intellectally dishonest".Well,I guess I could say that I suspect that you are "intellectually dishonst" for saying that I never answered your post,but instead I will believe that you just simply overlooked my answer..The quote above is from the same page and is the answer to to your questions.It is you who did not answer these points that I raised.

Now is your chance.

In His grace,--Jerry
 
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Francisco

New member
Jerry,

I have presented multiple verses that I believe shows this including Peter saying 'baptism saves', the eunuch baptized into Jesus Christ with water, the necessity of Cornelius receiving water baptism even after receiving the Holy Spirit, Jesus saying 'he who believes AND is baptized', etc... You always have a very scholarly answer as to why these verses don't really mean what they say. We can't come to agreement on the meaning of these verses.

Now I'm asking you why, in your opinion, is baptism mentioned in the context of salvation so frequently by Jesus, Paul and Peter?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Francisco,

It is you who is reading something into these verses that are not there.And my answers are not only scholarly but they are based on Scripture.

You see,I attempt to reconcile what Scripture says at one place with what Scripture says in orther places.For example,Scripture makes it very plain that when we are born of God that it is not through our own will.And submitting to a rite of water baptism does indeed involve both the "will of man" as well as the "will of the flesh":

"Who were born,not of blood,NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH,NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN,but of God"(Jn.1:13).

It is not by our will that we are born again.We either believe the gospel,or we do not.And it is a fact that "believing" is not a result of our "will".

"Being born again,not of corruptible seed,but of incorruptible,BY THE WORD OF GOD"(1Pet.1:23).

It is not by our "will" that we believe.We believe because the gospel is true,and the gospel comes in the power of the Holy Spirit.That is why our born again experience is not according to our will,but instead it is by the will of God:

"Of His own will begot He us with the word of truth..."(Jms.1:18).

So Scripture makes it so plain that the sinner is born again by the will of God and NOT by his own "will of the flesh" nor by the "will of man".So that excludes the idea that the sinner is born of God because he submits to a rite of water baptism:

"So,then,it is NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH,nor of him that runneth,but of God Who showeth mercy"(Ro.9:16).

So I base my argument that "water baptism" saves no one based partly on these Scriptures.

And if submitting to a rite of water baptism was or is "essential" to savation,don´t you think that there would be at least one verse in all of Scripture that SPECIFICALLY states that fact?

Yet there is not even one.

In His grace,--Jerry
 

Francisco

New member
Jerry,

Was that suppose to be your answer to my question about why baptism is so frequently mentioned in the context of salvation? Or was that another scholarly attempt to prove why these verses don't really mean what they say?

Please answer my question that I have posted at least 5 times now. Here it is again for clarity:
Jerry,

I have presented multiple verses that I believe shows this including Peter saying 'baptism saves', the eunuch baptized into Jesus Christ with water, the necessity of Cornelius receiving water baptism even after receiving the Holy Spirit, Jesus saying 'he who believes AND is baptized', etc... You always have a very scholarly answer as to why these verses don't really mean what they say. We can't come to agreement on the meaning of these verses.

Now I'm asking you why, in your opinion, is baptism mentioned in the context of salvation so frequently by Jesus, Paul and Peter?


And so that I can't be accused of the same non-responsiveness, I will give you a direct reply to your last comments.

You said:
And if submitting to a rite of water baptism was or is "essential" to savation,don´t you think that there would be at least one verse in all of Scripture that SPECIFICALLY states that fact?
Well, in addition to the verses were Peter says baptism saves as compared to the waters through which Noah was saved, the eunuch's water baptism into Jesus, Jesus' words that 'he who believes AND is baptized, and the other verses I have offered you, I now offer you this:

4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:4-5)


In Greek, this means literally, "born of water and Spirit," indicating one birth of water-and-Spirit, rather than "born of water and of the Spirit," as though it meant two different births—one birth of water and one birth of the Spirit.

As evidence of this interpretation of the Greek text, and of the belief of baptismal regeneration of the early church, I offer you these quotes from some Greek speaking early church fathers:

In A.D. 151, Justin Martyr wrote, "As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true . . . are brought by us where there is WATER and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with WATER. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61).

Around 190, Irenaeus, the bishop of Lyons, wrote, "And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred WATER and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through WATER and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]" (Fragment 34).

In the year 252, Cyprian, the bishop of Carthage, said that when those becoming Christians "receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of WATER and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’ [John 3:5]" (Letters 71[72]:1).

Augustine wrote, "From the time he [Jesus] said, ‘Except a man be born of WATER and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5], and again, ‘He that loses his life for my sake shall find it’ [Matt. 10:39], no one becomes a member of Christ except it be either by baptism in Christ or death for Christ" (On the Soul and Its Origin 1:10 [A.D. 419]). ('or death for Christ' indicates the Martyr's Baptism we discussed previously)

Augustine also taught, "It is this one SPIRIT who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, ‘Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents’ or ‘by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,’ but, ‘Unless a man be born again of WATER and the Holy Spirit’ [John 3:5]. The WATER, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the SPIRIT effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, BOTH regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam" (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).


Justin, Irenaeus and Cyprian definitely spoke Greek as their native language, and Augustine's native tongue was also probably Greek. All these quotations were originally written in Greek. I'm sure these men are more qualified to understand the original Greek text's than you and I, Jerry.

God Bless,

Francisco
 
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Originally posted by Francisco
Jerry,

I have presented multiple verses that I believe shows this including Peter saying 'baptism saves', the eunuch baptized into Jesus Christ with water, the necessity of Cornelius receiving water baptism even after receiving the Holy Spirit, Jesus saying 'he who believes AND is baptized', etc... You always have a very scholarly answer as to why these verses don't really mean what they say. We can't come to agreement on the meaning of these verses.

Now I'm asking you why, in your opinion, is baptism mentioned in the context of salvation so frequently by Jesus, Paul and Peter?

Francisco,

Why was baptism mentioned in connection with salvation?

Well,why was "blood of bulls and goats" mentioned so often in connection with "atonement" in the OT?Did not the Lord require that the blood of sacrifices be used in the rites when the sins of the people of Israel were "atoned" for?

But we know that "it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins"(Heb.10:4).And it is also a truth that a whole ocean of water cannot wash away even one sin.

So just because something is mentioned in connection with "atonement" or "salvation" does not mean that that thing is essential to salvation.

And it is not I who is saying that Mark 16:16 does not mean what it says.It is you who is reading into that verse something that it does not say.

If I interpreted other Scriptures using your method of interpretation,I could argue that in order to receive "everlasting life" one must "forsake" a close relative.The Lord said:

"And every one who hath forsaken houses,or brethren,or sisters,or father,or mother,or wife,or children,or lands,for My Name´s sake,shall receive an hundredfold,AND SHALL INHERIT EVERLASTING LIFE"(Mt.19:29,30).

The Lord is not giving the "requrement" necessary to inherit everlasting life,but instead were describing those who would receive everlasting life.

And that is exactly the case of the words of the Lord Jesus at Mark 16:16.

And Peter does indeed state that "baptism saves".However,he is speaking of the baptism where one is baptized into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body...the body of Christ"(1Cor.12:13,27).

And it is in the body of Christ that one is saved and receives eternal life:

"And this is the record,that God hath given unto us eternal life,and this life is in His Son"(1Jn.5:11).

So you still not have provided even one verse that states SPECIFICALLY that anyone is saved because they submitted to a rite of water baptism.And if it were ESSESNTIAL to salvation,don´t you think that there would be at least one verse that so states the fact?

In fact,we know that when the sinner is born of God that it not through his own will or the will of the flesh.And submitting to a rite of water baptism would indeed be considered an act of the will.So submitting to this rite is not a requirement for salvation.

Why did you not respond to my points concerning the fact that when a sinner is born of God it is NOT through his will nor of the will of the flesh?I have now answered your question,proving that just because something is mentioned in regard to either "salvation" or "atonement" it does not always mean that it is ESSENTIAL to "salvation" or "atonment".

Now it is your turn to explain how a sinner becomes born again through his own will by submitting to a rite of water baptism,even though Scripture states very clearly that we are not born of God through something that is done through the "will of man" or through the "will of the flesh".

In His grace,--Jerry
 
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c.moore

New member
Can anybody answer this Question?
I would like to know how many people changed thier teaching to this water saves baptism????

How many changed and found the truth that water doesn`t change us , and only the Holy spirit changes us, and our renewed mind in the grace of God, but how many changed to this bible doctrine and found that Jesus is the way , the truth , and the life, not that water baptism is the way the truth, and the life???
just give me the count please so I can see if this is a waste of religious precious time to try to convince somebody about A teaching of the bible.


peace
 

Francisco

New member
Jerry,

Now it is your turn to explain how a sinner becomes born again through his own will by submitting to a rite of water baptism,even though Scripture states very clearly that we are not born of God through something that is done through the "will of man" or through the "will of the flesh".
Did you not read the rest of my last post? Let me post it here again, for clarity, then we can discuss it:

And so that I can't be accused of the same non-responsiveness, I will give you a direct reply to your last comments.

You said:

"‘I have heard, sir,’ said I, ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’" (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).

Ignatius of Antioch
"Let none of you turn deserter. Let your baptism be your armor; your faith, your helmet; your love, your spear; your patient endurance, your panoply" (Letter to Polycarp 6 [A.D. 110]).

Second Clement
"For, if we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest; but if otherwise, then nothing shall deliver us from eternal punishment, if we should disobey his commandments. . . . [W]ith what confidence shall we, if we keep not our baptism pure and undefiled, enter into the kingdom of God? Or who shall be our advocate, unless we be found having holy and righteous works?’ (Second Clement 6:7–9 [A.D. 150]).

Theophilus of Antioch
"Moreover, those things which were created from the waters were blessed by God, so that this might also be a sign that men would at a future time receive repentance and remission of sins through water and the bath of regeneration—all who proceed to the truth and are born again and receive a blessing from God" (To Autolycus 12:16 [A.D. 181]).

Clement of Alexandria
"When we are baptized, we are enlightened. Being enlightened, we are adopted as sons. Adopted as sons, we are made perfect. Made perfect, we become immortal . . . ‘and sons of the Most High’ [Ps. 82:6]. This work is variously called grace, illumination, perfection, and washing. It is a washing by which we are cleansed of sins, a gift of grace by which the punishments due our sins are remitted, an illumination by which we behold that holy light of salvation" (The Instructor of Children 1:6:26:1 [A.D. 191]).

Tertullian
"Happy is our sacrament of WATER, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in WATER, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in WATER. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the WATER!" (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).
...
"Baptism itself is a corporal act by which we are plunged into the WATER, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from our sins" (ibid., 7:2).

Hippolytus
"And the bishop shall lay his hand upon them [the newly baptized], invoking and saying: ‘O Lord God, who did count these worthy of deserving the forgiveness of sins by the laver of regeneration, make them worthy to be filled with your Holy Spirit and send upon them thy grace [in confirmation], that they may serve you according to your will" (The Apostolic Tradition 22:1 [A.D. 215]).

Cyprian of Carthage (a different quote from above)
"While I was lying in darkness . . . I thought it indeed difficult and hard to believe . . . that divine mercy was promised for my salvation, so that anyone might be born again and quickened unto a new life by the laver of the saving WATER, he might put off what he had been before, and, although the structure of the body remained, he might change himself in soul and mind. . . . But afterwards, when the stain of my past life had been washed away by means of the WATER of rebirth, a light from above poured itself upon my chastened and now pure heart; afterwards, through the Spirit which is breathed from heaven, a second birth made of me a new man" (To Donatus 3–4 [A.D. 246]).

Aphraahat the Persian Sage
"From baptism we receive the Spirit of Christ. At that same moment in which the priests invoke the Spirit, heaven opens, and he descends and rests upon the waters, and those who are baptized are clothed in him. The Spirit is absent from all those who are born of the flesh, until they come to the water of rebirth, and then they receive the Holy Spirit. . . . In the second birth, that through baptism, they receive the Holy Spirit" (Treatises 6:14:4 [A.D. 340]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
"If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who, even without WATER, will receive baptism, for the Savior calls martyrdom a baptism [Mark 10:38]. . . . Bearing your sins, you go down into the WATER; but the calling down of grace seals your soul and does not permit that you afterwards be swallowed up by the fearsome dragon. You go down dead in your sins, and you come up made alive in righteousness" (Catechetical Lectures 3:10, 12 [A.D. 350]).

Basil the Great
"For prisoners, baptism is ransom, forgiveness of debts, the death of sin, regeneration of the soul, a resplendent garment, an unbreakable seal, a chariot to heaven, a royal protector, a gift of adoption" (Sermons on Moral and Practical Subjects 13:5 [A.D. 379]).

Council of Constantinople I
"We believe . . . in one baptism for the remission of sins" (Nicene Creed [A.D. 381]).

Ambrose of Milan
"The Lord was baptized, not to be cleansed himself but to cleanse the WATERS, so that those WATERS, cleansed by the flesh of Christ which knew no sin, might have the power of baptism. Whoever comes, therefore, to the washing of Christ lays aside his sins" (Commentary on Luke 2:83 [A.D. 389]).

Augustine (different quotes from those above)
"It is an excellent thing that the Punic [North African] Christians call baptism salvation and the sacrament of Christ’s body nothing else than life. Whence does this derive, except from an ancient and, as I suppose, apostolic tradition, by which the churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal? This is the witness of Scripture too" (Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:24:34 [A.D. 412]).

"The sacrament of baptism is most assuredly the sacrament of regeneration" (ibid., 2:27:43).

"Baptism washes away all, absolutely all, our sins, whether of deed, word, or thought, whether sins original or added, whether knowingly or unknowingly contracted" (Against Two Letters of the Pelagians 3:3:5 [A.D. 420]).

"This is the meaning of the great sacrament of baptism, which is celebrated among us: all who attain to this grace die thereby to sin—as he himself [Jesus] is said to have died to sin because he died in the flesh (that is, ‘in the likeness of sin’)—and they are thereby alive by being reborn in the baptismal font, just as he rose again from the sepulcher. This is the case no matter what the age of the body. For whether it be a newborn infant or a decrepit old man—since no one should be barred from baptism—just so, there is no one who does not die to sin in baptism. Infants die to original sin only; adults, to all those sins which they have added, through their evil living, to the burden they brought with them at birth" (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Love 13[41] [A.D. 421]). [/color]

As you can see, these early church fathers, most of whom spoke Greek as their native language and therefor are completely qualified to understand what the original Greek texts said, agree with my position on baptism and are completely against your position.

Even after the Protestant Reformation, most Protest denominations retained belief in baptismal regeneration. As Protestant early church historian J.N.D. Kelly writes:

"From the beginning baptism was the universally accepted rite of admission to the Church. . . . As regards its significance, it was always held to convey the remission of sins . . . we descend into the water ‘dead’ and come out again ‘alive’; we receive a white robe which symbolizes the Spirit . . .the Spirit is God himself dwelling in the believer, and the resulting life is a re-creation. Prior to baptism . . . our heart was the abode of demons . . . [but] baptism supplies us with the weapons for our spiritual warfare" (Early Christian Doctrines, 193–4).

Martin Luther wrote in his Short Chatechism that baptism 'works the forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and grants eternal life to all who believe.'

So, not only do the church fathers disagree with your position, so do most Protestants.

It appears that you hold a man-made tradition on the meaning of all these verses and on the effects of baptism, rather than the scriptural teaching of baptismal regeneration.

God Bless,

Francisco
 

Francisco

New member
c.moore,
Can anybody answer this Question?
I would like to know how many people changed thier teaching to this water saves baptism????
Referring to my post to Jerry Shugart above, the church has always held the belief that water baptism regenerates the soul through the Holy Spirit. It was not until the time of the reformation that any large body of supposed believers in Christ took up the opposite belief, that water baptism is a mere symbol.

So the only change was on the part of those Protestants who chose to follow the man-made beliefs of John Calvin.

God Bless,

Francisco
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Francisco,

Again you avoided my question in reference to the fact that Scripture teaches that when a sinner is born of God it is not through his will:

"Who were born,not of blood,NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH;NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN,but of God"(Jn.1:13).

Since submitting to the rite of water baptism can only be accomplished through the "will of man" and the "will of the flesh",it becomes obvious that one is not regenerated by submitting to this rite.

If the words of John are not teaching that being "born of God" is not dependent on man´s will,then his words must have another meaning.What is your interpretation of his words?

In His grace,--Jerry
 

Apollos

New member
No CONTEXT for Jerry... again !!!

No CONTEXT for Jerry... again !!!

Jerry –

You wander farther from the truth all the time to promote your error.

Once again CONTEXT had been abandoned by you to promote your error.

John 1:13
– “Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh; nor of the will of man, but of God.”

To be “born of God” was not made possible by, or came through anything fleshly or physical. It was not made possible by anything man thought of or planned.

Being “born of God” was made possible by God, and God only. The PLAN to be bron of God is ALL His !! Man was not involved in any manner.

A part of God’s plan to be “born of Him” requires…

RECEIVING and BELIEVEING – see verse 12. Man has a choice !!!

God also included WATER BAPTISM as a part of the plan!!
Acst 2:38, 22:16

Really Jerry, do you ever read your Bible without a preconceived notion or a prejudice ??
 
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Francisco

New member
Jerry,

Again you avoided my question in reference to the fact that Scripture teaches that when a sinner is born of God it is not through his will:

"Who were born,not of blood,NOR OF THE WILL OF THE FLESH;NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN,but of God"(Jn.1:13).

Since submitting to the rite of water baptism can only be accomplished through the "will of man" and the "will of the flesh",it becomes obvious that one is not regenerated by submitting to this rite.
I never avoid questions, sometimes even going out of my way to answer, even when my previous questions are ignored. You, of all people, should know that. In fact, just a few posts back, I said 'So I can't be accused of the same non-responsiveness...' and answered your question even though you ignored my previous question.

I see your dilemma, but it's easily resolved. You need look no farther than my last post. Look at what Aphraahat says:

"From baptism we receive the Spirit of Christ. At that same moment in which the priests invoke the Spirit, heaven opens, and he descends and rests upon the waters, and those who are baptized are clothed in him. The Spirit is absent from all those who are born of the flesh, until they come to the water of rebirth, and then they receive the Holy Spirit. . . . In the second birth, that through baptism, they receive the Holy Spirit" (Treatises 6:14:4 [A.D. 340])."

The water itself has no effect without the Holy Spirit. So it is not by our will that we are born again, but by the Spirit of God working through the water of baptism.

Augustines beliefs on baptismal regeneration echo the same ideas as those of Aphraahat:

The WATER, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the SPIRIT effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, BOTH regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam" (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).

You see Jerry, no matter how you slice it or dice it, God wants us to profess our faith in him, and that is what the submission to the rite of water baptism is. And through this exposition of our faith in God we are rewarded with the gift of the Holy Spirit, just as Abraham was rewarded with his exposition of faith in offering God his only son. In both cases the person involved is doing something, but that does not detract from the fact the rewards from God are graces, totally unmerited gifts. We do not presume to put God under an obligation by the rite of water baptism, we are merely following His instructions by being baptized in water. So it is still by God's will that we are baptized in water.

Now look at what Clement of Alexandria says:

"When we are baptized, we are enlightened. Being enlightened, we are adopted as sons. Adopted as sons, we are made perfect. Made perfect, we become immortal . . . ‘and sons of the Most High’ [Ps. 82:6]. This work is variously called GRACE, illumination, perfection, and washing. It is a washing by which we are cleansed of sins, a gift of GRACE by which the punishments due our sins are remitted, an illumination by which we behold that holy light of salvation" (The Instructor of Children 1:6:26:1 [A.D. 191]).

See Jerry, it is still by GRACE, not anything we merit by following Jesus wish that we be baptized in water. Just because we follow God's command and do something does not mean we have merited the reward God gives us, any more than Abraham merited the reward God gave him.

Look at what Tertullian says:

"Baptism itself is a corporal act by which we are plunged into the WATER, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from our sins"

The effect is SPIRITUAL. The Holy Spirit comes to us through the waters of baptism, freeing us from sin and regenerating our souls.

Cyril of Jerusalem states it this way:

"If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who, even without WATER, will receive baptism, for the Savior calls martyrdom a baptism [Mark 10:38]. . . . Bearing your sins, you go down into the WATER; but the calling down of GRACE seals your soul and does not permit that you afterwards be swallowed up by the fearsome dragon. You go down dead in your sins, and you come up made alive in righteousness" (Catechetical Lectures 3:10, 12 [A.D. 350]).

The 'calling down of grace' is Cyril's way of saying the Holy Spirit descends on us in baptism, just as the Spirit descended on Jesus in baptism.

Ambrose of Milan describes the effect of baptism this way:

"This is the meaning of the great sacrament of baptism, which is celebrated among us: all who attain to this GRACE die thereby to sin—as he himself [Jesus] is said to have died to sin because he died in the flesh (that is, ‘in the likeness of sin’)—and they are thereby alive by being reborn in the baptismal font, just as he rose again from the sepulcher.

You should be able to see that it is by the Holy Spirit that we are reborn through baptism, not by something we've done.

God Bless,

Francisco
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Originally posted by Apollos
Jerry –

You wander farther from the truth all the time to promote your error.

Once again CONTEXT had been abandoned by you to promote your error.

John 1:13
– “Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh; nor of the will of man, but of God.”

To be “born of God” was not made possible by, or came through anything fleshly or physical. It was not made possible by anything man thought of or planned.

Being “born of God” was made possible by God, and God only. The PLAN to be bron of God is ALL His !! Man was not involved in any manner.

A part of God’s plan to be “born of Him” requires…

RECEIVING and BELIEVEING – see verse 12. Man has a choice !!!

God also included WATER BAPTISM as a part of the plan!!
Acst 2:38, 22:16

Really Jerry, do you ever read your Bible without a preconceived notion or a prejudice ??

Apollos,

You attempt to change the very meaning of the following words,but your attempt is so transparent that no one was fooled but you:

"Who were born,not of blood,nor of the will of the flesh,nor of the will of man,but of God"(Jn.1:13).

This verse is clearly in reference to how a sinner is born of God.The "process",my friend!

You say "to be 'born of God' was not made possible by,or came through anything fleshly or physical.It was not made possible by anything man thought of or planned."

That is not what this verse is saying,at all.It is speaking of being "born of God".It says that we are "born of God" and not born through the will of man or through the will of the flesh.

And since the "will of man" is an integral part of the false idea that the sinner must submit to the rite of water baptism,it becomes clear that submitting to the rite has nothing to do with being "born of God".

Just read the verse again.

"Who were born,not of blood,nor of the will of the flesh,nor of the will of man,but of God."

This is clearly showing HOW a man is born of God.

The sinner is not born of by his own will.His will has nothing to do with him being born of God.It is by God´s will,and His will alone that a sinner is born of God.

"So,then,IT IS NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH,nor of him that runneth,but of God that showeth mercy"(Ro.9:16).

Man will always want to take credit for their salvation,but the Lord makes it plain that our will is not involved in the born again experience.

Apollos,how much of your "will" was involved in your "natural" birth?Well,that is exactly the same amount of "will" that was involved in your new birth--ZERO!!

The only "will" that is involved in the new birth is that of the Lord:

"Of HIS OWN WILL begot he us with the word of truth..."(Jms.1:18).

Next,you say,"Receiving and believing--man has a choice".

First the sinner must "believe",and then he will choose to "receive" him.But "believing" comes first.And a man "believes" something based on the evidence,and not by his will.

So we can see that the teaching of Scripture is the fact that the born again experience is not dependent in any way on man´s will.And that alone rules out the idea that the sinner must submit to the rite of water baptism in order to be born of God.

In His grace,--Jerry
 

Francisco

New member
Jerry,

Don't forget to answer my last post, but I wanted to interject here as well. (excuse me for butting in here Apollos)
And since the "will of man" is an integral part of the false idea that the sinner must submit to the rite of water baptism,it becomes clear that submitting to the rite has nothing to do with being "born of God".
Your problem seems to be if man's will is in any way involved, then it can't be of grace, because it is of man's will which you liken to works.

So is it by man's will when they profess Jesus Christ? Is it by man's will that you respond to altar call and accept Jesus Christ? Is it by man's will that we even consider accepting Jesus Christ? Is it by man's will that we decide to repent? Is it by man's will that we decide to obey, or disobey, one of God's commands?

Personally, I believe the Holy Spirit is involved in anything good that we do, kind of prompting us to do it. But it is by our will that we choose to do something good and cooperate with God's grace, or choose to not cooperate. The same holds true for baptism. God's grace is there for us if we only choose to submit to the water baptism he commanded.

Now, back to my last post to you. You asked for a verse that shows water baptism is necessary. I gave you John 3:4-5 with myriad supporting evidence. So now you have your verse that proves water baptism is necessary. Why don't you throw away your man-made theology and come to the theology proclaimed in scripture?

God Bless,

Francisco
 

JustAChristian

New member
That is hard to say, C. Moore...

That is hard to say, C. Moore...

Originally posted by c.moore
Can anybody answer this Question?
I would like to know how many people changed thier teaching to this water saves baptism????

How many changed and found the truth that water doesn`t change us , and only the Holy spirit changes us, and our renewed mind in the grace of God, but how many changed to this bible doctrine and found that Jesus is the way , the truth , and the life, not that water baptism is the way the truth, and the life???
just give me the count please so I can see if this is a waste of religious precious time to try to convince somebody about A teaching of the bible.


peace

How far back do you plan to go to find out that answer? If you go back to the apostles you'll probably get an answer more than you can imagine. If you go back to the beginning of this thread you'll probably not find quite as many, but there will be a few thinking hard about it....

JustAChristian :thumb:
 
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Francisco

New member
JustAChristian,

Did you say:





That's what I thought you said.... lol

God bless you and your very appropriate answers!

Francisco
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Francisco,

Your argument is even weaker than Apollos´. You agree that it is not of our will that we are born of God.

But at the same time you say that one MUST SUBMIT to the rite of water baptism in order to be born again.

One cannot submit to anything without using his "will".

So you expect us to believe that it is not by our will that we are born of God,but we cannot be born of God unless we exert our will and submit to that rite.

And I notice that Clement of Alexander speaks of "bbaptismal regeneration" using language that is not Scriptual at all,but instead comes from the pagan beliefs of the Greek mysteries.He writes:

"When we are baptized,we are ENLIGHTENED."

This term was used in the pagan religions in reference to "baptismal regeneration",but it is not ever used in the Scriptures.Justin Martyr also used the same term,as well as the expression "be initiated" in reference to baptism.And that also is a term that was constantly used in reference to the pagan rite.

And Cyril of Jerusalem refers to the process of baptism as "sealing" the soul.Again,this expression cannot be found in the Holy Scriptures referring to water baptism,but it was a common expression used in the pagan rite.It was used of those who had been initiated and had recived an actual seal upon their forehead as a sign of new ownership.

Again,this all comes from pagan sources and is not according to the teaching of the Holy Scriptures.

In His grace,--Jerry
 

Francisco

New member
Francisco,

Your argument is even weaker than Apollos´. You agree that it is not of our will that we are born of God.

But at the same time you say that one MUST SUBMIT to the rite of water baptism in order to be born again.

One cannot submit to anything without using his "will".
If God commands us to do something, the Holy Spirit prompts us to do it, and we choose through free will to obey his command, then we can rightly say 'by the GRACE OF GOD I made the correct decision'. So it's NOT by our will, but by the Grace of God that we choose to submit to water baptism to begin with.

And it is by the power of the Holy Spirit conferred through the baptismal waters that our souls are healed, all sins forgiven; just as Jesus conferred the healing grace necessary to restore the blind man's sight through the waters in the pool at Siloam.

So you expect us to believe that it is not by our will that we are born of God,but we cannot be born of God unless we exert our will and submit to that rite.
You're missing the point Jerry. We can't put God under obligation by anything we will to DO. And besides, He did CALL us to baptism, so it is by the prompting of the Holy Spirit that we submit to water baptism.

And I notice that Clement of Alexander speaks of "bbaptismal regeneration" using language that is not Scriptual at all,but instead comes from the pagan beliefs of the Greek mysteries.He writes:

"When we are baptized,we are ENLIGHTENED."

This term was used in the pagan religions in reference to "baptismal regeneration",but it is not ever used in the Scriptures.Justin Martyr also used the same term,as well as the expression "be initiated" in reference to baptism.And that also is a term that was constantly used in reference to the pagan rite.

And Cyril of Jerusalem refers to the process of baptism as "sealing" the soul.Again,this expression cannot be found in the Holy Scriptures referring to water baptism,but it was a common expression used in the pagan rite.It was used of those who had been initiated and had recived an actual seal upon their forehead as a sign of new ownership.

Again,this all comes from pagan sources and is not according to the teaching of the Holy Scriptures.
Now talk about weak arguments! You think you can refute the ideas of people who lived and learned the faith within a few generations of Christ, some even taught by the apostles or their direct disciples, by saying Justin said 'enlightened', or Cyril said 'sealed'? lol These words were commonly used words, probably used by pagans as well as Christians, but so what?

And you think you can refute these great theologians with the claim they used language that was non-scriptural? That's not a valid argument at all. The words 'Bible' and 'Trinity' aren't scriptural either, but they are valid terms for use in describing scriptural meaning.

Your transparent argument fools no one Jerry.

And the fact you could only make this extremely week argument against only 2 out of more than 25 quotations, is indicative of the weakness of your modern man-made theology. You have to be willing to ignore, or explain away, way too many verses to accept your belief. And you have to acknowledge that the very earliest ecclesiastical writings seem unanimous on belief in water baptism. These were writings of people instructed in Christian doctrine within a few generations of Jesus, some instructed by the apostles or their direct disciples. How can you be so obstinate as to refuse an obvious truth? The obvious truth is your man-made theology doesn't fit with scripture. Like I said, you have to ignore too much and explain away too much in order for your theology to coalesce with scripture.

Jerry, you should carefully reconsider these issues. You and I both know you are an intelligent individual who can see there are problems with the theology that was ingrained in you. But if you realize something other than what you were taught is the truth, then you are obligated to accept it. If you do not, then you're not being honest with yourself or with God.

God Bless,

Francisco
 
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Francisco

New member
JustAChristian,

I like the latest version of your last post even better than the first version!!! Though both were appropriate! :)
 
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