ARCHIVE: Is it ever right to deny Christ?

Nathon Detroit · Dec 3, 2002

Originally posted by Freak
Hey Knight, did it ever occur to you, to consider that perhaps God wants you to be a witness for Him in the midst of death?

Yes it has occurred to me, and in many cases I would be that witness. This case is different. My kids are far more important to me than witnessing to a raving lunatic.

You continue...

When you said: Did you ever stop and consider that God would want you to act as if you are denying Him so you can put a stop to a evil lunatic terrorizing the neighborhood?

Tell that to James, Peter, Paul and the other apostles who gave up their lives for the sake of the Gospel.

Not to a rogue lunatic at their door wanting to murder their kids they didn't!

You continue...

You considering the idea that there are situations (besides the fictional we have already discusse) where one can deny Christ and be right with Him is abusrd. Are you "in Christ", Knight? Why would anyone whose abiding in Him deny Him. Doesn't make sense!

By the way, are you a child of God. Do children who love their parents deny their parents?

Stunning point! Thank you!

I love my kids!!!

I know my kids!!!

I wouldn't want them to die for the sake of witnessing about ME to some lunatic!!!! I would hope they would be smart enough to deceive the wicked person!!!

Nathon Detroit · Dec 3, 2002

Originally posted by cirisme

Or, maybe that way of escape is trusting in God and not in ourselves.

I trust him, don't you?

If you do not stand firm in your faith, you will not stand at all. -Isaiah 7:9b

Oh well.. this topic is hopeless.

Let me say one last time....

I am ONLY ACTING!!!!!! My faith would be as strong as ever! But in this VERY specific situation deceiving a wicked lunatic is the RIGHT thing to do! Not only would God not be upset with me He would be happy with me! He would bless me the way He blessed the Hebrew midwives.

We have NO obligation to witness to a wicked lunatic that wants to murder our kids.

Calvinist · Dec 3, 2002

Freak is... well Freak is actually a religious... must resist temptation.... need.... (panting).... must get..... one thousand posts.... (/breathing hard).....

Freak · Dec 3, 2002

Originally posted by Knight
Yes it has occurred to me, and in many cases I would be that witness. This case is different. My kids are far more important to me than witnessing to a raving lunatic.

You continue...Not to a rogue lunatic at their door wanting to murder their kids they didn't!

You continue...Stunning point! Thank you!

I love my kids!!!

I know my kids!!!

I wouldn't want them to die for the sake of witnessing about ME to some lunatic!!!! I would hope they would be smart enough to deceive the wicked person!!!

Knight, let's look at what you said.

First you said: My kids are far more important ...

Are they more important then Jesus and His call to live for Him (which may mean to die for HIM)? Please answer the question.

You go on: I love my kids!!!

Great!! But Jesus is your life not your kids. God calls many to give up their kids for the sake of the Gospel. Were you aware of that?

Again, Jesus calls us to bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. To love our enemies! Your a child of God. Why would you ever deny your Heavenly Father who loves you in perfect love?

Nathon Detroit · Dec 3, 2002

Originally posted by Freak

Jesus told us to bless those who curse you.

Hmmm that's a strange retort.

Earlier when I asked you about self defense, you said that it would be OK to blow the guys head off with your own gun if you could. But now your saying we should just bless him instead?

ebenz47037 · Dec 3, 2002

Originally posted by Freak

Knight, let's look at what you said.

First you said: My kids are far more important ...

Are they more important then Jesus and His call to live for Him (which may mean to die for HIM)? Please answer the question.

You go on: I love my kids!!!

Great!! But Jesus is your life not your kids. God calls many to give up their kids for the sake of the Gospel. Were you aware of that?

Again, Jesus calls us to bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. To love our enemies! Your a child of God. Why would you ever deny your Heavenly Father who loves you in perfect love?

:nono:
Freak,

You shouldn't be making comments about a man's love for his children. Knight would just show his love differently than you or I would. That's not that big a deal.

The last couple of posts you've done, you've really stuck your foot in your mouth. :nono:

Freak · Dec 3, 2002

Originally posted by Knight
Oh well.. this topic is hopeless.

Let me say one last time....

I am ONLY ACTING!!!!!! My faith would be as strong as ever! But in this VERY specific situation deceiving a wicked lunatic is the RIGHT thing to do! Not only would God not be upset with me He would be happy with me! He would bless me the way He blessed the Hebrew midwives.

We have NO obligation to witness to a wicked lunatic that wants to murder our kids.

Knight, you are wrong in saying: We have NO obligation to witness to a wicked lunatic that wants to murder our kids.

That is lie from you know where. Jesus calls us to bless those who curse you. Do good to those who are wicked. Ever read the words of Jesus? Jesus calls you to share the Gospel to all of creation (that includes those who hate and kill).

BTW, the mere acting equation is getting old. Denying Jesus in front of a Muslim who might kill you (or others) is not the right thing to do. So, Knight, you do not believe denying Jesus is absolutely wrong (in the case of saving your family)?

Freak · Dec 3, 2002

Originally posted by Knight
Hmmm that's a strange retort.

Earlier when I asked you about self defense, you said that it would be OK to blow the guys head off with your own gun if you could. But now your saying we should just bless him instead?

Another false claim: Earlier when I asked you about self defense, you said that it would be OK to blow the guys head off with your own gun if you could.

I never said that.

Calvinist · Dec 3, 2002

Originally posted by Freak

Knight, you are wrong in saying: We have NO obligation to witness to a wicked lunatic that wants to murder our kids.

Freak: Not only is he not wrong. He is morally right in my opinion. What's more we have no moral obligation to "witness" to anyone at all, ever.

Freak · Dec 3, 2002

Originally posted by ebenz47037

:nono:
Freak,

You shouldn't be making comments about a man's love for his children. Knight would just show his love differently than you or I would. That's not that big a deal.

The last couple of posts you've done, you've really stuck your foot in your mouth. :nono:

Hey, I'm calling Knight on the carpet. Put Jesus above all us including his kids.

Freak · Dec 3, 2002

Besides, who wouldn't defend his family but in the process don't deny Jesus!

Calvinist · Dec 3, 2002

Originally posted by Freak

Hey, I'm calling Knight on the carpet. Put Jesus above all us including his kids.

You are in fact, a Freak, with no understanding.

Freak · Dec 3, 2002

The Holy Scriptures speak of Jesus declaring in no certain terms that-"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

Calvinist · Dec 3, 2002

Originally posted by Freak
The Holy Scriptures speak of Jesus declaring in no certain terms that-"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

The passage says, whosoever shall deny me. Now I am not a lawyer or anything, but it seems to there must be a willing, deliberate, intentional... etc... Causus Bellum or something...

But that verse says nothing at all about "witnessing." Where does the Bible say, "Witness therefore because if you do not then you are morally wrong." ?

ebenz47037 · Dec 3, 2002

Originally posted by Freak

Hey, I'm calling Knight on the carpet. Put Jesus above all us including his kids.

Well, just because I agree with you on the topic of the thread doesn't mean I'm going to like everything you say.

Nathon Detroit · Dec 3, 2002

Originally posted by Freak

Knight, let's look at what you said.

First you said: My kids are far more important ...

Are they more important then Jesus and His call to live for Him (which may mean to die for HIM)? Please answer the question.

Nice try Freak. Did everyone catch freaks attempt at a deceptive question?

Let me answer anyway....
My kids are not as important as Jesus.... but they are far more important than a lunatic murderer. Therefore, your question is a false dilemma.

You continue...

Great!! But Jesus is your life not your kids. God calls many to give up their kids for the sake of the Gospel. Were you aware of that?

God does not want us to reject our families for the sake of the gospel!!! God says that men should love their wives the same as Christ loves the church! (Ephesians 5:25) And that we shouldn't provoke our children to wrath! (Ephesians 6:4)

In fact...

God says....

1Corinthians 7:32 But I want you to be without care. He who is unmarried cares for the things of the Lord — how he may please the Lord.
33 But he who is married cares about the things of the world — how he may please his wife.

In other words....

Because God has delegated raising families to men, when we marry, our obligations are to our family by authority of God! God wants us to take care of our family first! This not to say that our family is MORE important than God but just the opposite, in that, because God wants us to care for our family we should, because we love God and should do as He says!

Nathon Detroit · Dec 3, 2002

Originally posted by Freak

Hey, I'm calling Knight on the carpet. Put Jesus above all us including his kids.

That is a non-sensical statement with no practical application.

I love Jesus more than I love anything. But Jesus has delegated the authority of raising, protecting and loving my kids to me! It's my job... its my responsibility... given to me from God.

Your above carpet call would be like me claiming Freak doesn't really love God the most because at times Freak thinks about and spends time caring for others that are not Jesus.

I really wish you wouldn't say such things.

Jaltus · Dec 3, 2002

Wow, misappropriation in a big way.

Knight, Paul was saying that what you quoted above was why men SHOULD NOT MARRY. It was not an instruction, it was a point of wrongdoing by the married.

32 I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairs-- how he can please the Lord.
33 But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world-- how he can please his wife--
34 and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world-- how she can please her husband.
35 I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.

Note the break between the Lord's affairs and the affairs of the world. Do you seriously think Paul is telling us to ignore the affairs of God for the affairs of this world?

That, my friend, is totally wrong and an awful way to read the Bible.

Dee Dee Warren · Dec 3, 2002

Knight.... very good job my friend. I have a comment to say here that I may not word in the exact precise way, but I still hope my point comes across. Do we really think that God would have us sacrifice us children to prove a point on peity (and I would say misguided peity)? Piety itself can be an idol if it is an end in itself and not a means of true devotion to God. There certainly is cause and times to die for our witness, but in elevating this situation posed by Knight to such a situation, to me at least, demeans the very real and correct and noble sacrifices of martyrs. There is no comparison here.

Nathon Detroit · Dec 3, 2002

Originally posted by Dee Dee Warren
Knight.... very good job my friend. I have a comment to say here that I may not word in the exact precise way, but I still hope my point comes across. Do we really think that God would have us sacrifice us children to prove a point on peity (and I would say misguided peity)? Piety itself can be an idol if it is an end in itself and not a means of true devotion to God. There certainly is cause and times to die for our witness, but in elevating this situation posed by Knight to such a situation, to me at least, demeans the very real and correct and noble sacrifices of martyrs. There is no comparison here.

I couldn't agree more!

ARCHIVE: Is it ever right to deny Christ?

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