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Thread: Can someone deny the Deity of Christ...? - BATTLE ROYALE I - Freak vs. me again

  1. #46
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    Talking Jesus is Lord

    I apologize for the long post that follows. But since Freak keeps accusing me of not answering his questions, I have attempted, in earnest, to address each of his questions. Having said that, let us begin…
    • Posted by Referee/Knight:
      me again, I am not sure what the problem is. Of course people are allowed to reference material other than the Bible, why wouldn't they be able to do that?

      If you choose to use the Bible exclusively, GREAT! Ultimately the debate (Battle Royale I) is a debate focused on the Bible and the material found within the Bible so you would do just fine sticking within the Bible. Remember, you needn't prove extra biblical material wrong or in error you simply need to provide a good argument for your side of the issue.
    Okay, the referee has made a decision. I will keep on plugging. Or is that slugging?
    • Posted by Freak:
      I believe I have answered your questions…
    No, you haven't. Please comment on my rebuttal to ego eimi. I'll re-post my rebuttal:
    This is my fourth request for you to address my analogy of the Centurions use of ego eimi in comparison to Jesus’ use of it. You have not addressed this topic, nay, not even once. For your sake, I will repost my rebuttal of your usage of ego eimi as a crux for proving that ”you must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.”

    Posted by Freak
    In Greek I am is 'ego eimi,' which means ‘I am.'
    Yes, we agree on this, so when the Centurian said "I am" in Matthew 8:9, we clearly understand that this does not infer that:
    • He is the great I AM
    • He is saying that you must believe that he is God or else you will die.
    He is simply referring to himself. That's all. Nothing more. There are no secret meanings in ego eimi. Let's look at the scripture itself, just to make it more clear:
    • I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. (Matt. 8:9)
    I have just given you two illustrations on why Jesus (in John 8:24) is [/u]not[/u] saying:
    Posted by Freak
    Ye must believe that I am God in order to be saved.
    Are you claiming that you have commented on the above analysis?

    • Posted by Freak
      I have raised additional questions which you have not dealt with properly.
    I am unable to answer your question (listed below) until you answer my question about which scripture you are referring to. Please answer the question that I have highlight in blue and then I will attempt to answer your question:
    Posted by Freak:
    I'm still waiting for some kind of answer to the following vaild questions: By the way I need some clarification regarding the statement: "We must confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord" I believe this but don't you believe the mere title "Lord" assumes He is God. For as I pointed out in my last post: Can someone call Jesus Lord (in its purest Biblical form) and deny Him as God? That is absurd. I remember dealing with this in my last post when I said: "Did you not know what the Apostle Paul meant 'God" by the term "Lord" in verse 13 for example where he quotes from Joel 2:32 (Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered).
    (me again’s insertion: Verse 13 of what scripture? Let me know and I’ll research this aspect for you). In Joel 2 the writer is clearly referring to God as he mentions the Lord." When Paul is speaking of confessing Jesus Lord is he not in essence saying you must confess Him (Jesus) as God, in light of the rendering of Joel 2 in relation to Romans 10?
    Moving on:
    • Posted by Freak
      I have read the rules and understand the limitations I have in using Greek Scholars, theologians, etc in my posts. Men like D.A. Carson, Dr. James White, Augustine, and a host of others were scholars that I believe could shed some light into our discussions. They are well respected around the world by unbelievers and believers. In fact, I have cited their works in my various posts to have you examine their respective views which I hold dearly.
    I too could find a plethora of information from human authors to rebut your stance, but then I would be citing their views and their analysis and, subsequently, you would not be getting my analysis of the scriptures.

    Along the same lines, you can find a plethora of information from human authors to substantiate your view, but you are citing the views of others and, subsequently, you are not providing your own analysis of the scriptures.

    My thesis rest exclusively on the scriptures and my analysis of God's Word. Can you say the same? Consequently, your argument is not your own, but belongs to others and is not "original." You are not contributing anything new or substantial to this discussion. Anyone can cite the views of others, especially in this age of "cut-n-paste."
    • Posted by Freak
      I believe the Holy Scriptures have pointed out the many truths that I have sought to defend.
    I wish that you would comment on my rebuttals to your postulations. I'm not interested in the rebuttals that have been provided by John Wesley et al because I came here to debate you, but you are unable to defend yourself using the scriptures alone. Instead, you must rely on the opinions of others.

    I tried to coax you into contributing your own thoughts and your own analysis of the scriptures.

    Original thoughts.
    • Posted by Freak
      I'm still waiting for answers regarding the usage of John 8:24.
    I thought I posted them? I will re-post them and please tell me what your rebuttal is:
    Posted by me again
    Let’s note some interesting facts about the above:
    • You are correct to note that the Greek I am in Romans 8:58 and in John 8:24 is translated from the Greek ego eimi.” Let’s review those two scriptures for the reader:

    • John 8:24
      I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.


      Here, we note that Jesus is stating that if they do not believe that He is:
      1) The Messiah
      2) The promised One
      3) The One sent by God the Father
      Then they will be damned. Earlier in John 8:16b, Jesus said that He was sent by the Father:

      . . . the Father, who sent me. (NIV, NASB, AMP and NLT translations).

      Without accepting Jesus, then they will be damned. They must give their unconditional faith to Him to be saved. That is exactly what Jesus was saying to them. He was not saying ”You must believe that I am God to be saved.”

      Additionally and as you pointed out, the I am in this scripture is translated from the Greek ego eimi, but this does not prove that Jesus is saying ”Ye must believe that I am God to be saved.” Using your method of interpretational analysis, others in the Bible would be making the same claim of being the great I AM of the Old Testament. For example, the Centurion in the book of Matthew said:

      I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. (Matt. 8:9)

      The Centurion also used the same Greek words: ego eimi. However, using common sense, we understand that he is not claiming to be the great I AM of the Old Testament. You have incorrectly assumed that because the Lord Jesus used the Greek ego eimi, that He was claiming to be the great I AM. In this particular application in John 8:24, Jesus is claiming to be the Messiah. I must reiterate that in John 8:24, Jesus did not say ”Ye must believe that I am God to be saved.”
    Is the above an inadequate answer? Please point out the flaws instead of dismissing it and claiming that I did not reply to you.
    • Posted by Freak
      I'm still waiting for answers regarding the usage of 1 John 4, Romans 10. I believe I have raised some pointed issues which you failed to deal with.
    Thank you for quoting an entire chapter (e.g. 1 John 4 and Romans 10). Can you please narrow it down to a specific verse?

    If you do this, I will be more than happy to evaluate your thesis. I'm honestly trying to understand your assertion.
    • Posted by Freak
      The Scriptures which I have quoted from point to the fact that there is but One Jesus and He is God. You cannot divorce who is He is and of our salvation.
    You appear to be making blanket statements. Please point out specific facts or specific scriptures that we can discuss and analyze.
    • Posted by Freak
      You cannot deny that Jesus is God and be saved or that would leave all those Mormons who have received Christ as having salvation (but they deny Jesus and His Deity).

    You are making a blanket statement again without providing a scriptural reference. Let us stick to the scriptures as the basis for our thesis, instead of relying on our person opinions.
    • Posted by Freak
      You cannot deny that Jesus is God and be saved or that would leave all those Mormons who have received Christ as having salvation (but they deny Jesus and His Deity).
    Scripture please. You are just re-hashing what you've already said.
    Favorite scripture:
    • And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Rev. 11:15)
    TheologyReview.com

  2. #47
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    DING DING DING

    That's the end of round 8!

    Two more posts each.

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    Me again states...
    Ref, we need an impartial decision.
    Combatants are indeed allowed to use (or reference) any source they choose. But keep in mind that doesn't necessarily help their point. It might hurt their point!

    Let the debate continue, its a good one.
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  4. #49
    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Arrow Jesus Christ is Lord because He is God!

    *This debate is centered around this question can someone deny Jesus is God and still be a member of the Body of Christ. The answer is a clear NO! I believe in the last few posts I have stated my reasons by providing Scriptural evidence and pointing to those who are well-known as Greek scholars to defend my views. I believe the evidence is quite overwhelming in favor that one cannot deny Jesus is God and be saved.

    Allow me to go through your last point and re answer your questions:

    You said: Please comment on my rebuttal to ego eimi.

    I believe Jesus claimed "I AM" to disclose He was in fact Deity. In fact, when you asked:In Greek I am is 'ego eimi,' which means ‘I am.' Yes, we agree on this, so when the Centurian said "I am" in Matthew 8:9, we clearly understand that this does not infer that (he is the I AM). Me Again, we are speaking of a "centurian" not the God-man, big difference. The Greek in these passages is different. In John 8 the "ego eimi" is absolute where in the Matthew passage it is not. I think that is clear.

    Again for the third or fourth time I'll ask: By the way I need some clarification regarding the statement: "We must confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord" I believe this but don't you believe the mere title "Lord" assumes He is God. For as I pointed out in my last post: Can someone call Jesus Lord (in its purest Biblical form) and deny Him as God? That is absurd. I remember dealing with this in my last post when I said: "Did you not know what the Apostle Paul meant 'God" by the term "Lord" in verse 13 of Romans 10 for example where he quotes from Joel 2:32 (Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be delivered). (me again’s insertion: Verse 13 of what scripture? Let me know and I’ll research this aspect for you). In Joel 2 the writer is clearly referring to God as he mentions the Lord." When Paul is speaking of confessing Jesus Lord is he not in essence saying you must confess Him (Jesus) as God, in light of the rendering of Joel 2 in relation to Romans 10? No Excuse Now! Answer the Question: Can Someone Call Jesus Lord and Deny He is God?

    You asked: My thesis rest exclusively on the scriptures and my analysis of God's Word. Can you say the same?

    Are you to tell me that your understanding on let's say the concept of personal evangelism, or marriage came "exclusively" from Scripture? Does not God still gift some to be "teachers" (see Ephesians 4:11)? Would these teachers, called by God, have anything to offer to us, in terms providing some insight to the passages employing the original languages. I believe God uses teachers but we should test everything a teacher teaches on the objective standard of God's Word.

    Let's try this one more time, I stated: I am also worried you did not deal sufficently with my remarks regarding First John. The Apostle John says the following: "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world" (see 1 John 4:1-4). The above verse needs to be cross referenced with John 1:1,14 (also written by the Apostle John) where he states that the Word was God and the Word became flesh. 1 John 4:2-3 is saying that if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh then you are of the spirit of Antichrist. A anti-Christ is one who is not a member of the Body of Christ. Can you divorce the Jesus who is declared God in John1:1 from the Jesus who is flesh? Of course not. I believe this chapter clearly proves you cannot deny Jesus and who He is (the God-man) and be a member of the Body for Christ for to deny this means you are of the Anti-Christ.
    Jesus Loves You

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    Talking JESUS IS LORD

    • Posted by Freak
      You said:


      Please comment on my rebuttal to ego eimi.

      I believe Jesus claimed "I AM" to disclose He was in fact Deity. In fact, when you asked: In Greek I am is 'ego eimi,' which means ‘I am.' Yes, we agree on this, so when the Centurian said "I am" in Matthew 8:9, we clearly understand that this does not infer that (he is the I AM). Me Again, we are speaking of a "centurian" not the God-man, big difference.

      The Greek in these passages is different. In John 8 the "ego eimi" is absolute where in the Matthew passage it is not.

      I think that is clear.
    Thank you for commenting on your perceived difference between the ego eimi in John 8:24 vs. the ego eimi in Matthew 8:9. However, I disagree with you and I will explain why.

    You say that the Greek ego eimi in Matthew 8:9 is different then the ego eimi in John 8:24. However, you offer no proof and I cannot accept your opinion that ”they are the same.” Consequently, I looked both of them up in the original Greek and found that they are the same.

    Here is what I found:
    • John 8:24
      I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I
      (1473) am (1510) he, ye shall die in your sins.
    • Matthew 8:9
      I
      (1473) am (1510) a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
    • In both of the above scriptures, the “I” is the same. It is taken from ego' in the Greek (from #1473). Here is the verbatim translation for the “I” in both of the above scriptures:
      A primary pronoun of the first person, “I” (only expressed when emphatic): - I, me.
    • In both of the above scriptures, the “am” is the same. It is taken from imee' in the Greek (from #1510). Here is the verbatim translation for the “me” in both of the above scriptures:
      First person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic): - am, have been, X it is I, was.
    • Both the Lord Jesus and the Centurion used the same Greek for ”I (1473) am (1510)”
    Subsequently, I have just rebuffed your following assertion:
    • Posted by Freak
      The Greek in these passages is different. In John 8 the "ego eimi" is absolute where in the Matthew passage it is not.
    I have just shown you from the original Greek that the ego eimi in both of these passages is the exact same. If you can show me from the original Greek something that will refute this, I will listen.

    Now that we’ve clarified that the ego eimi is the same in both John 8:24 and in Matthew 8:9, let me reiterate that John 8:16 interprets the meaning and intent of what Jesus was saying in John 8:24, to wit:
    • John 8:16b
      The Father sent me.
    Jesus is saying that if we don’t believe that the Father sent Him as the Messiah, then we are damned. Jesus is saying that He was sent by the Father. Jesus was not acting alone!!! Halleluiah
    • Posted by Freak
      Again for the third or fourth time I'll ask: By the way I need some clarification regarding the statement:
      Posted by me again
      We must confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord.
      Posted by Freak
      I believe this but don't you believe the mere title "Lord" assumes He is God.
    We must rely on what the bible says and not on our own personal opinion. The bible says:
    • That Jesus is ”Lord of all.”
    • That as the Heir of the Father, he is Lord of all.
    • That whosoever will confess that Jesus is the Son of God: God dwells in him!!!
    Here are some proof texts:
    • Act 10:36b
      Jesus Christ: he is Lord of all.

      Gal 4:1
      Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all.

      1Jo 4:15
      Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
    I also admit that every tongue will confess that ”Jesus is Lord” upon His return:
    • Phi 2:11
      And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
    As you can see from the above posted scriptures, I can see no scriptural compunction to force a Christian candidate to say ”Jesus is God” to be saved. Their faith must be in the Lord Jesus Christ and Him alone. No extra-biblical requirements.

    This debate between you and I has caused me to see even more of a distinction from the Lord Jesus Christ and the Father, though I am firmly entrenched in the believe that they are one in mind and purpose.
    • Posted by Freak
      Can someone call Jesus Lord (in its purest Biblical form) and deny Him as God?
    Yes. In the purest biblical form, a man can deny that Jesus is God and can still call him Lord of heaven and earth, Creator of all. We worship Him and glorify Him and point all men to Him and the only hope for our salvation. Yet, for salvational purposes, we are not damned if we do not believe He is God. But we must believe that He is God’s Son.

    You believe that they are damned and therein lies our doctrinal difference.
    • Posted by Freak
      That is absurd.
    No, I don’t think so.
    • Posted by Freak
      Did you not know what the Apostle Paul meant 'God" by the term "Lord" in verse 13 of Romans 10 for example where he quotes from Joel 2:32
    Let me look at the scriptures before I comment on them:
    • Rom 10:9-13
      That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    The above scripture says we must do three things to be saved, to wit:
    • Confess with our mouth the Lord Jesus.
    • Believe in our heart that God has raised Jesus from the dead.
    • Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord Jesus shall be saved.
    I do not see in here where it says that we have to say that Jesus is God to be saved. Where in this scripture do you see it?

    • Joe 2:32
      And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
    Yes, this scripture is pointing to the Lord Jesus because it is referring to Jerusalem where our Lord was crucified for our deliverance. Where in this scripture does it say that we must believe that Jesus is God to be saved?
    • Posted by Freak
      When Paul is speaking of confessing Jesus Lord is he not in essence saying you must confess Him (Jesus) as God, in light of the rendering of Joel 2 in relation to Romans 10?
    It sounds like you are agreeing with my thesis. It sounds like you are saying that we do not have to confess that Jesus is God to be saved.

    We must only confess that Jesus is Lord (as the scriptures that you noted point out). Since it sounds like you are agreeing with me, I am going to assume that it is a typo on your part. If you are changing your stance and your thesis, then Wow!!!
    • Posted by Freak
      Are you to tell me that your understanding on let's say the concept of personal evangelism, or marriage came "exclusively" from Scripture?
    I don’t understand your question or the point you are trying to make.
    • Posted by Freak
      Does not God still gift some to be "teachers"?
    Yes.
    • Posted by Freak
      Would these teachers, called by God, have anything to offer to us, in terms providing some insight to the passages employing the original languages.
    Are you inferring that you are a God ordained teacher, filled with the wisdom of the Holy Ghost and given His spiritual wisdom and understanding to understand and, subsequently, to teach God’s Word?

    To answer your question, ”yes,” the teachers who are filled with His spirit are equipped to teach us.
    • Posted by Freak
      I believe God uses teachers but we should test everything a teacher teaches on the objective standard of God's Word.
    We agree and that is why I wanted you to exclusively use the scriptures in lieu of using other books.
    • Posted by Freak
      I am also worried you did not deal sufficently with my remarks regarding First John. The Apostle John says the following:


      1 John 4:1-4
      Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.


      The above verse needs to be cross referenced with:

      John 1:1,14
      In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


      Where he states that the Word was God and the Word became flesh.
    Okay, we agree so far. Let’s continue with the argument for your thesis:
    • Posted by Freak
      1 John 4:2-3 is saying that if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh then you are of the spirit of Antichrist.
    No, it does not say that in the scripture that you referred to (above). We just reviewed it. I don’t want to re-post it because I have already posted it for you once and I don’t want to be pedantic. But I’ll review what I see in 1 John:2-3:
    • Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
    • And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist.
    I still don’t see your thesis in the above scripture. Where does it say ”Ye must believe that Jesus is God to be saved?”

    Yes, Jesus is the Creator of heaven and earth. He was with God and He was God and you make an excellent case for this and I see your point. But I don’t see any scriptural support for the damnation of people who:
    • Confess that Jesus is Lord
    • Confess that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.
    You come very close to making your case but you lack one thing: Scriptural support. In order to support your thesis, small bridges must be jumped because there are gaps that prevent the canonization of your thesis. Even though the gap is small, nonetheless, it does exist and we do not have the scriptural support to damn those who have put their faith and trust in the risen Christ, the only begotten Son of God. The bible says that their faith is what will save them or their lack of faith (unbelief in Jesus) is what will damn them.

    You have done a wonderful job of making your case. My only objection is that the small scriptural gap prevents you from realistically claiming damnation upon those who make a confession in the Lordship of Christ Jesus.
    Favorite scripture:
    • And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Rev. 11:15)
    TheologyReview.com

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    DING DING DING

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    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Regardless, Jesus who is God is Champion!

    Allow me to recap Me Again's strange theology. According to Me Again:

    Yes. In the purest biblical form, a man can deny that Jesus is God and can still call him Lord of heaven and earth.



    I am of the opinion that the Lord Jesus is one in mission and one in purpose with the Father, yet they are two separate beings.




    I also believe that Michael the Archangel was actually the Lord Jesus Christ in his pre-human birth form. He came here with the authority of the Father.





    He may wear the title of Jehovah Witness or Mormon or another Christian offshoot, even though they have many false teachings.




    This debate between you and I has caused me to see even more of a distinction from the Lord Jesus Christ and the Father,...



    In the light of what Me Again believes and embraces can we really take his theology seriously?

    Let alone his understanding of the Greek when it comes to analyzing John 8 (which by the way you simply dismissed without dealing with the Greek scholars whom I quoted that point to the meaning of the Greek text).

    According to Me Again, a person can deny Jesus is God and still be a member of the Body of Christ despite the Scriptural evidence that proves otherwise. Me Again even states: If a cult member goes to heaven, it is through the Lord Jesus Christ and through Him alone. If a Buddhist or a Hindu or a Moslem or [insert the person’s name here] goes to heaven, it is through Jesus.
    even if this Jesus is not declared as God. Simply unbelievable but this is what Me Again believes.

    Allow me to recap the Biblical and orthodox position:

    "I said, therefore, to you, that you will die in your sins. For if you do not believe that I am, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24). Jesus said here that if you do not believe "that I am" you will die in your sins. In Greek I am is 'ego eimi,' which means ‘I am.' These are the same words used in John 8:58 where Jesus says "...before Abraham was, I am...(special thanks to Dr. White, A.T. Robertson, Dr. Leon Morris and a host of the Greek Scholars that have declared this truth and defended it- whom I quote from). A denial that Jesus is "I Am" (God) will result in one dying in their sins (not become a member of Body).

    The Apostle John says the following: "This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world" (see 1 John 4).
    The above verse needs to be cross referenced with John 1:1,14 (also written by the Apostle John) where he states that the Word was God and the Word became flesh. 1 John 4:2-3 is saying that if you deny that Jesus is God in flesh then you are of the spirit of Antichrist. A anti-Christ is one who is not a member of the Body of Christ.

    Jesus is Lord because He is in fact God despite Me Agains false assertion that Jesus can be Lord but not God. That simply doesn't make sense and I believe Me Again realizes that.

    One cannot deny Jesus is God and still be a member of the Body of Christ in the light of all the Biblically-sound statements I have made and the absolute Scriptural evidence that points to the truth one cannot deny Jesus is God and be saved.

    Me Again, despite your personal attacks and the many threads you have dedicated to me in an attempt to defame me I applaud you for admitting (through your outlandish claims that I have noted above) that Jesus is Lord but that does make Him God. He cannot be Lord but not God. Jesus is God and Lord and this truth cannot be divorced.
    Jesus Loves You

  9. #54
    Your powers are weak, old man. Knight's Avatar
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    me again....

    The last word is yours.
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    Angry Last Round : 1... 2... 3... YOU'RE OUT !!!

    • I clicked on the red, meanie face just to be funny!!!
    Well, I’m just about petered out. How about you? After combating Jay in and out of the ring, I’m tired. Really tired.

    Let me recap our previous discussions:
    • I pointed out that in the Greek, ”I am” is the same in our previously discussed texts. However, Jay did not comment on it. The point: In John 8:24, Jesus was not claiming to be the great ”I AM.” Consequently, this pillar of Jay’s thesis cannot be used to support the extra-biblical comment that ”Ye must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.”
    • In John 8:58, Jesus did claim to be the great ”I AM.” However, there is no correlative scripture to document the extra-biblical claim that a man must believe that ”Jesus is God” to be saved.
    • Jay accurately points out that in 1 John 4:1-4 "that the Word was made flesh." He then jumps to a different book in the bible and quotes a different scripture that says that ”Jesus is Lord” ( John 1:1,14) and says that the true meaning of this is that ”Ye must believe that Jesus is God to be saved.” But this is an extra-biblical addendum that is unscriptural.
    • While I personally believe that the Lord Jesus is our God, I can find no scripture that mandates that a candidate for baptism must say that ”Jesus is God.” Consequently, this extra-biblical requirement that Jay has tried to force upon people has created dissension amongst the Body of Christ.
    • I know of many denominations that require the baptismal candidate to say that "Jesus is Lord." However, I cannot find one denomination that requires the candidate to say that "Jesus is God" prior to allowing them to be baptized. Can you find any such denomination? There is a valid reason why we don't require this extra-biblical statement to become a Christian.
    As has been duly noted, people will vote for the concept that they believe in. We had two options, and, naturally, people will undoubtly choose option #1, to wit:
    • 1) Must a man believe that Jesus is God to be saved?
    • 2) Who presented the best argument?
    Jay, thank you kindly for giving me the time and opportunity to debate with you. Knight, thank you for setting up the ring. And now, as I step out of the ring, the referee yells:
    • Next Challenger!!!
    Favorite scripture:
    • And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Rev. 11:15)
    TheologyReview.com

  11. #56
    Your powers are weak, old man. Knight's Avatar
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    Thumbs up DING DING DING DING

    That's it!

    That is the end of "Battle Royale I"

    I want to thank our combatants on a great fight. I will open up a thread called "the POST GAME SHOW - Battle Royal I", so you can discuss the battle if you like.
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