The Easter Debate ~ Lion and DDW on Eschatology (HOF thread)

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Carl Smuda

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thlipsis occurs five times in the book of Revelation. All five times it is translated 'tribulation' in the King James.

thlipsis is almost as interesting as orge. That greek word is translated 'wrath' many times in Revelation.
 
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Dee Dee Warren

Guest
Dear Lion:

This is where we keep talking past each other, and I don't think it is intentional on either of our parts. You need to understand (even if you disagree - which of course you do) that I do not believe that the 70th week of Daniel has anything to do with the Great Trib. Thus, I certainly believe Revelation is about the Great Trib, and do believe it parallels parts of the Olivet Discourse. I hope that clears something up so that you can correctly represent my position, even though you disagree. This will become more clear as we progress, but I keep seeing you unintentionally misstate my position.
 

drdeutsch

New member
I don't want to interrupt - I just want to throw this out there for anybody who wishes to read it, but some on Greg Boyd's forum, including Dr. Boyd himself, seem to believe that preterism is the eschatological position that fits best with OV theism. Check it out here.

That being said, I'll get out of this thread and allow you all to continue your debate.
Dr. Deutsch
 
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Yxboom

Guest
Originally posted by drdeutsch
I don't want to interrupt - I just want to throw this out there for anybody who wishes to read it, but some on Greg Boyd's forum, including Dr. Boyd himself, seem to believe that preterism is the eschatological position that fits best with OV theism. Check it out here.

That being said, I'll get out of this thread and allow you all to continue your debate.
Dr. Deutsch
Thanks, I have adamently said earlier that I disagree with Greg Boyd's model of OV you have only given more fuel to the fire against Greg Boyd's compatibilitistic Open Theism :down:
 

Lion

King of the jungle
Super Moderator
Sorry

Sorry

DD-I apologize, you are correct that I wasn’t understanding your position correctly, and the fault is completely mine. I went back and re-read your earlier posts, where you clearly stated this was indeed your position. Thank you for clearing that up, it will certainly help in the future.
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Originally posted by drdeutsch
I don't want to interrupt - I just want to throw this out there for anybody who wishes to read it, but some on Greg Boyd's forum, including Dr. Boyd himself, seem to believe that preterism is the eschatological position that fits best with OV theism. Check it out here.

That being said, I'll get out of this thread and allow you all to continue your debate.
Dr. Deutsch
Thats really strange Dr.

But I am glad you posted it because I have been wondering something regarding a similar topic.....

Why do preterists hold the closed view almost exclusively? (the view that God has exhaustive foreknowledge of the future)

Is there any connection with their theology regarding preterism? Or do they simply hold the closed view by chance? Are there any OV preterists? I have never met one, have you?

I see no logical reason why a preterist couldn't be an OV'er, can you?
 

Carl Smuda

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Howdy Knight,
maybe the preterists hold to the closed view almost exclusively because that is the position held for many hundreds of years in Christiandom? OV isn't exactly reformed protestant orthodox you know...
respectfully,
 
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Dee Dee Warren

Guest
Dear Knight:

Why do preterists hold the closed view almost exclusively? (the view that God has exhaustive foreknowledge of the future) Is there any connection with their theology regarding preterism? Or do they simply hold the closed view by chance? Are there any OV preterists? I have never met one, have you?

I do not know of any OV preterists.. but that is said with a caveat. All of the other preterists (save a very few) that I know personally are on this Board, so that is not a wide sampling. But there is another reason why I do think that you will not find many, and that is because preterism leads IMHO naturally and inevitably to postmillennialism, which IMHO again is difficult to reconcile with OV, but then again, to be absolutely honest, I find the predictive prophecy of the type held to by preterists to be difficult (understatement) to reconcile with OV...... I am not trying to veer off into an OV discussion or pick an OV fight, I am just trying to give you an educated preterists perspective. I buck the system myself in that I am not a Calvinist (we can argue that on the other thread) and I know of no other postmillennialists who are not. So in a nutshell, preterism tends to lead to postmillennialism which tends to lead to Calvinism.... and thus, not an enviroment conducive to OV views, but certainly not impossible either, I think as demonstrated by the comments on that Boyd board.

But... as an interesting aside... if tomorrow I were to decide OV were correct (I am speaking strictly hypotheticially), it would not require one whit of change in my eschatology. This is entirely different from the subject in which Lion and I are debating though which adds in the monkeywrench of Acts 9/12 out dispensationalism which cannot co-exist with true preterism, though it has some preteristic tendencies. The two systems are mutually exclusive. OV can theoretically exist within either.
 
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Dee Dee Warren

Guest
Carl, I think you have DrB confused with Calvinist who is the one I was going to be debating on that subject, and no, we will not be. He has had other committments come up which caused him to have to decline. And of course the thought of debating me scared the pants off of him :D :p

DrB and I are currently debating preterism though, somewhat similarly to the debate that Lion and I are having though DrB makes my responses look absolutely rapid in comparison. He drops out of sight for weeks at a time.
 

Nathon Detroit

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Originally posted by Carl Smuda
Howdy Knight,
maybe the preterists hold to the closed view almost exclusively because that is the position held for many hundreds of years in Christiandom? OV isn't exactly reformed protestant orthodox you know...
respectfully,
Are you saying that because OV is a minority position it is less likely a solid biblical position?
 

Carl Smuda

New member
No! not at all good sir Knight! In fact, I've been going over your paper again. Work is not the best place to do that. I have to keep stopping to actually do work, or post answers. :eek:
Are you saying that because OV is a minority position it is less likely a solid biblical position?
If OV gains momentum and speed, or roots grow (whatever) in 2 or 3 centuries it could very well become just as established as the trinity doctrine. (hey, if trinity can evolve over 300 years why not Open-View?). I was thinking about that it IS new. That's probably why main stream probably hasn't heard of OV. I respect the idea but I'm not close to comfortable with it. What time I have is spent mostly thinking or reading stuff on postmill or theonomy or even Calvin's Institutes or, well, "In defense of Miracles" and the like.

That is why I appreciate people like you who have made some of it easier to digest for my own rumination. Have you compared OV to Providence? There is many scriptures about God's divine providence. How old would you say Open View Theism is?

respectfully,
 

Lion

King of the jungle
Super Moderator
If time was created what was there before that?

If time was created what was there before that?

I think it’s just a little older than this;
Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
And most certainly before this exchange;
Ex. 32:9-14 And the LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! “Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.”
Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God… So the LORD repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.
 

Carl Smuda

New member
Lion,
greetings Lion heart. God Bless you! Interesting, thank you. It took me a minute to see what you meant. But I believe I follow. What I meant when with that question was when (in our time) did the theology of OV start to develope? When did people start publishing works on open view? If it is the true description of the nature of the One God then, of course, it's been with us as long as time has been with us. Do you know when this theology really started?
respectfully,
 
Y

Yxboom

Guest
The Martin Luther's thesis on Guttenberg for OVT would be the book The Openness of God by Clark Pinnock, Richard Rice, John Sanders, William Hasker and David Basinger.
 
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Dee Dee Warren

Guest
Here Kitty, Kitty…..

Here Kitty, Kitty…..

Dear Lion:

We are still quite obviously on the Daniel 9 issues and at the point on some of them where we may just need to move on…. Our main sticking point has been whether or not the destruction of the city and Temple fall within the 70 weeks (your position) or as a result of the 70 weeks (my position). My starting point for my position has always been that Gabriel very clearly laid out the goals for what was to be accomplished within the 70 weeks in Daniel 9:24, and no matter how you slice it, the destruction of the city and the Temple ain’t one of them. :nono: As we get into the Olivet Discourse I have further proof which is premature to bring in now. In order to overcome this incredible large piece of evidence in my favor, you point out that Gabriel states:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city

….for which I say you missed the next little word “to” which is repeated six times stating the goals. This is crystal clear…. seventy weeks are determined to… to…. to…. to…. to…. to…. and again, the destruction ain’t one of them. We apparently are not going to agree on this whatsoever. Your citation of Genesis 1 and 2 is weak as you attempt a comparison between a narrative and prophetic text, and as you assume the very point you want to prove, i.e. that everything that follows in verses 25-27 are simply an expansion of verse 24 which is not a simple overview, but rather a mission statement… thus, apples (pun intended) and oranges.

A great deal of your point hinges upon your assumption that the 70th week of Daniel 9 is the Great Tribulation; however, without first begging the question on this passage, nowhere else in Scripture is the Great Tribulation said to be seven years. The other places where a period of time is mentioned it is explicitly said to be time, times, and half a time (Daniel 12:7), one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days (Daniel 12:11), and forty-two months (Revelation 13:5). This is the main reason why typical futurists will place the Great Trib in the last half of the 70th week, which makes more sense if one is going to futurize said week at all.

But…. I demonstrated, and the text is painfully obvious, that Christ is crucified after the 69th week, which only leaves the 70th week. You can say (and you try to) that He was crucified in the very first moments of the 70th week, but it is the 70th week nonetheless. You absolutely cannot place this event at all within the 69th week though you even try to do that. It is textually impossible. I then demonstrated through the Hebraic parallelism present in the text (which you did not touch), that the text then goes on to explicitly state that the Messiah was cut off in the midst of the 70th week, and that the phrases “cut off” and “bring an end to sacrifice and offering” are equivalent. This interpretation of course is supported by the NT in Hebrews 10:9 He takes away the first that He may establish the second,” which in context is speaking of the end of the sacrificial system in light of Christ’s work.

In an attempt to deflect the force of my point, you attempt to jokingly mock (and remember no offense, I like that style) the idea that there can be any period of time following the “after” and before the event that is said to follow the “after.” This is nonsense. However you do try and point out other verses where “after” is used to try and demonstrate that “after” cannot allow for any period of intervening time “after” but must imply immediacy... However, let’s go to other texts shall we?

Matthew 1:12And after they were brought to Babylon, Jeconiah begot Shealtiel, and Shealtiel begot Zerubbabel. (oh my goodness! Jeconiah’s first order of business after he arrived was to have intimate relations…. He did nothing else before right?)

Matthew 22:25Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. (Egad!, this poor sap died immediately after he said “I do” right?)

Lev 25:48After that he is sold he may be redeemed again; one of his brethren may redeem him. (a slave can only be redeemed immediately after he is sold?? Come on now….)

Jeremiah 12:15And it shall come to pass, after that I have plucked them out I will return, and have compassion on them, and will bring them again, every man to his heritage, and every man to his land. (Really now?? God immediately restores a nation after plucking them out ?)

I could multiply passages, but I think I have embarrassed you enough ;) The “normal flow of speech” as you say also allows for intervening time as well. If I say that I will return to work after I have my baby, I do not mean that I will get up off the delivery table and punch in. Your allusion that you can prove your case by calculating the crucifixion down to the exact month is also grossly misplaced and anti-contextual to the culture. The Hebraic mind only calculated down to the smallest unit of time mentioned, and in this case, that would be a week of years. We see the same thing with the resurrection which technically happened about 32 hours after Christ’s death, not three full days and nights.

You still also have not adequately answered my charge that you have made Christ’s earthly ministry and His public presentation to Israel as their Messiah textually invisible (which ignores John’s role as His harbinger (John 1:31). Verse 26 gives a period of time until Messiah the Prince.. your view has His ministry prior to His death completely irrelevant to the passage. However, I did mistakenly say that you believe that the events of verse 25 related to the 70th week only.. neither of us hold that, I meant to say that you hold that the events of verse 26-27 belong to the 70th week exclusively (or the last seconds of the 69th week which is textually impossible), so your attempted dramatics :D at claiming that the city must not have been rebuilt since it is textually invisible as well is just plain wrong. Verse 25 states that the first seven weeks were allotted for that task, so it is anything but invisible, quite unlike the yawning and wide stretch of 62 weeks that follow in which you would dump Christ’s earthly ministry.

You also made a comment about preterist reliance upon the timing of the destruction of the Temple and its relation to Daniel’s prophecy, and in so doing, you misunderstood the preterist position… however, I see that we are clearing up some of that confusion… so I will reserve comment until our discussion gets really into the Temple and the Discourse, which is very soon.

You have candidly admitted that you do not know who the “he” is in verse 27, but I would submit that the correct identity of the “he” is crucial to understanding this passage and the Hebraic parallelism already mentioned. I will not pursue it further to give you time to study it out. And on the last issue of the anointing of the Most Holy, you did concede that my position was possible (which of course then makes the rest of my position possible), but are unwilling to see the entire force. Just to recap on that one issue, you have sorely neglected the Jubilee imagery and Christ’s claim to have already been anointed by citing a Jubilee passage in Luke 4:18. This conclusively places His anointing prior to that time, and I would say conclusively at His baptism. This chronology gives full weight to His Messianic mission and proclamation leading to His crucifixion, and recognizes the weighty judicial effect of His death in rendering null animal sacrifices for sin.

Now to the point where you metamorphize into a typical futurist. I had brought up the fact that the “near” timing references do not stop after the point where you allege that the Tribulation was halted. So while you concede the force of such timing verses prior to that point, in a move which seems quite ad hoc, with regards to the very same type of verses after that point you say:

Since the plan has been put on hold. And since there are no prophesies to indicate when God will resume working with Israel, (except for the passage concerning the fullness of the gentiles), no one knows when it will happen. None of the apostles knew, including Paul or John, and neither do we. So they adopted the attitude that it would be soon, just as we should adopt the same attitude, acting as if it will come tomorrow so that we will be ever watchful.

Eeek!! Don’t make me choke! That is not what the texts say whatsoever which I find very ironic in light of what I see of certain hyperliteralizations you do of certain OT texts regarding God’s knowledge. Are you suggesting that the Greek language is devoid of means to express the concept that the events might be soon but no one knows?? The apostles were just as emphatic as Christ was on the soon approaching eschatological event, and you quite arbitrarily, because of an imposed grid, accept the face value statements of one and not the others. This error is quite transparent. Let’s look at a few of the more embarrassing ones for you, shall we?? (and I can prove later that Paul did in fact have an idea of the far timing of the Second Coming which you have improperly conflated with Christ’s “soon” judgment-coming in AD70)

Revelation 1:3Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Note that this verse tells us that the time is near. Near meant then exactly what near means now. Near does not mean could be near, might be near, or I don’t know if it is near so we should act as if it is. There is nothing equivocal or vague about this term at all. In order to further clarify this point…

Daniel 8:26Therefore seal up the vision, for it refers to many days in the future.

Daniel is told that his vision was for many days in the future, and in fact we know that the coming of Christ was hundreds of years into his future, thus, many days in the future. However, very similar phrasing appears in Revelation.

Revelation 22:10Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.

John is told the complete opposite. If the Bible has any continuity, then this means exactly what that says. And it says “at hand,” not could be at hand, might be at hand, or I don’t know if it is at hand but we should act like it is.

And though I have many more to rub in on this topic… here is a bone-cruncher:

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.

John is emphatic. While before apostles preached the “last days,” the event was now so near that it was the “last hour.” And John says not that he thinks it might be the last hour, or that they should act like it is the last hour, he says that WE KNOW it is the last hour. Ouch.
 

Cherith

New member
Come Back, Dee Dee, Come Back...

Come Back, Dee Dee, Come Back...

CARL SAID: "Dee Dee, are you a theonomist?"

DEE DEE SAID: "Yes"

Yikes!!! Not only does my girl retain a foothold in the world (Pelagianism) and crossed the line (postmillennialism), but she's fallen into the abyss! Come back, Dee Dee, come back...

"Therefore know that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments, and He repays those who hate Him to their face to destroy them. He will not be slack with him who hates Him; He will repay him to his face. Therefore you shall keep the commandment, the statutes, and the judgments which I command you today, to observe them." --Deut 7:9-11
 
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