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Thread: Battle Royale Rules

  1. #16
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Good point Justin, I will officially add that to the rules!
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  2. #17
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    How about citing the relevant info in a different thread, since space is already limited in the debates.
    For Greek conversion, click here.
    <opinions expressed in this post are not necessarily those of TOL or the TOL Holding Company, and are in fact probably either wrong or dangerous or something even worse. In the event of a world-wide catastrophe coming from one of these posts, all we can say is we did not do it and we warned you not to listen to this post, but NOOOOO, you knew what you were doing all along and yet you STILL managed to destroy part of a continent and yet missed Hollywood! Any resemblance to mathematicians dead or alive is strictly on purpose.>

  3. #18
    Old Timer Evangelion's Avatar
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    Exclamation Plagiarism!

    I suddenly realised why Jay's latest set of rebuttals were so cogent. It's because he didn't actually write some of the better material, but simply ripped it from a well-known theologian by the name of Dr James White.

    Jay has "written" the following:
    • Though being a "scholar" does not guarantee instant infallibility in judgment, it should at least provide assurance of factual understanding. Given this, the scholars seem to feel that these passages in John 8:24 clealry state that Jesus claimed to be God:

      Augustine wrote: "...the whole unhappiness of the Jews was not that they had sin, but to die in sins...In these words, 'Except ye believe that I am,' Jesus meant nothing short of this, 'Except ye believe that I am God, ye shall die in your sins.' It is well for us, thank God, that He said except ye believe, and not except ye understand."

      Luther, like Augustine before him, wrote in no uncertain terms:

      "The Lord Christ is angry below the surface and says: "Do you want to know who I am? I am God, and that in the fullest sense. Do as you please. If you do not believe that I am He, then you are nothing, and you must die in your sin." No prophet, apostle, or evangelist may proclaim and say: "Believe in God, and also believe that I am God; otherwise you are damned." Or...

      William Hendrickson put it rather bluntly:

      "The "I am" here (8:58) reminds one of the "I am" in 8:24. Basically, the same thought is expressed in both passages; namely, that Jesus is God!" Or...

      Leon Morris has written,

      " 'I am' must have the fullest significance it can bear. It is, as we have already had occasion to notice...in the style of deity." (in a footnote on same page "ego eimi in LXX renders the Hebrew ani hu which is the way God speaks (cf. Deut. 32:39; Isa. 41:4, 43:10, 46:4, etc.). The Hebrew may carry a reference to the meaning of the divine name Yahweh (cf. Exod. 3:14). We should almost certainly understand John's use of the term to reflect that in the LXX. It is the style of deity, and it points to the eternity of God according to the strictest understanding of the continuous nature of the present eimi. He continually IS. Cf. Abbott: "taken here, along with other declarations about what Jesus IS, it seems to call upon the Pharisees to believe that the Son of man is not only the Deliverer but also one with the Father in the unity of the Godhead" (2228)." Or...

      A.T. Robertson certainly did not see any linguistic problems here:

      "I am (ego eimi). Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God." Or...

      The great expositor J. C. Ryle noted,

      "Let us carefully note what a strong proof we have here of the pre-existence and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. He applies to Himself the very name by which God made Himself known when He undertook to redeem Israel."


    But guess what? None of this was Jay's own work, all of it was somebody else's work, and Jay has passed it off as his own!

    Here's the original material, as it appears on White's own Website:
    • It is self-evident that such a far-reaching and in reality astounding claim as is made by the Lord Jesus in John 8:24, 58 is hard to accept outside of the highest estimation of His person. Indeed, Augustine wrote,

      "...the whole unhappiness of the Jews was not that they had sin, but to die in sins...In these words, 'Except ye believe that I am,' Jesus meant nothing short of this, 'Except ye believe that I am God, ye shall die in your sins.' It is well for us, thank God, that He said except ye believe, and not except ye understand."

      But can the usage of ego eimi withstand that much weight? Though being a "scholar" does not guarantee infallibility in judgment, it should at least provide assurance of factual understanding. Given this, the scholars seem to feel that it can.

      Leon Morris has written,

      " 'I am' must have the fullest significance it can bear. It is, as we have already had occasion to notice...in the style of deity." (in a footnote on same page): "ego eimi in LXX renders the Hebrew ani hu which is the way God speaks (cf. Deut. 32:39; Isa. 41:4, 43:10, 46:4, etc.). The Hebrew may carry a reference to the meaning of the divine name Yahweh (cf. Exod. 3:14). We should almost certainly understand John's use of the term to reflect that in the LXX. It is the style of deity, and it points to the eternity of God according to the strictest understanding of the continuous nature of the present eimi. He continually IS. Cf. Abbott: "taken here, along with other declarations about what Jesus IS, it seems to call upon the Pharisees to believe that the Son of man is not only the Deliverer but also one with the Father in the unity of the Godhead" (2228)."

      Warfield has written concerning this,

      "...and again, as the most impressive language possible, He declares...: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am," where He claims for Himself the timeless present of eternity as His mode of existence."


      The great expositor J. C. Ryle noted,

      "Let us carefully note what a strong proof we have here of the pre-existence and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ. He applies to Himself the very name by which God made Himself known when He undertook to redeem Israel. It was "I AM" who brought them out of the land of Egypt. It was "I AM" who died for us upon the cross. The amazing strength of the foundation of a sinner's hope appears here. Believing on Jesus we rest on divinity, on One who is God as well as man.

      There is a difference in the Greek verbs here employed which we should carefully notice. The Greek for "was" is quite different from the Greek for "am." It is as if our Lord said, "Before Abraham has born, I have an existence individual and eternal."

      Luther, like Augustine before him, wrote in no uncertain terms:

      "The Lord Christ is angry below the surface and says: "Do you want to know who I am? I am God, and that in the fullest sense. Do as you please. If you do not believe that I am He, then you are nothing, and you must die in your sin." No prophet, apostle, or evangelist may proclaim and say: "Believe in God, and also believe that I am God; otherwise you are damned."

      A.T. Robertson certainly did not see any linguistic problems here:

      I am (ego eimi). Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God. The contrast between genesthai (entrance into existence of Abraham) and eimi (timeless being) is complete. See the same contrast between en in 1:1 and egeneto in 1:14. See the contrast also in Psa. 90:2 between God (ei, art) and the mountains (genethenai)."

      And finally, William Hendrickson put it rather bluntly:

      "The "I am" here (8:58) reminds one of the "I am" in 8:24. Basically, the same thought is expressed in both passages; namely, that Jesus is God!"

    Click here to read White's essay for yourself.

    If these debates are going to have a shred of credibility, plagiarism must be prohibited, and penalised when it occurs.
    Last edited by Evangelion; July 10th, 2002 at 01:36 PM.
    Sanctus, sanctus, sanctus,
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    Pleni sunt coeli et terra gloria tua.


    I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.

  4. #19
    Journeyman drdeutsch's Avatar
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    If these debates are going to have a shred of credibility, plagiarism must be prohibited, and penalised when it occurs
    Amen to that.
    Dr. Deutsch
    Praecipitatum verius quam editum "Thrown together rather than edited."
    -Erasmus describing his Textus Receptus (the MS the KJV/NKJV is translated from)

  5. #20
    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    I have always cited my sources and will formally during the debate.

    Many have gone before me (like A.T. Robertson, Augustine, etc), there work can be cited and used and I attempt to make sure all sources are cited (like with my quotes), etc.
    Jesus Loves You

  6. #21
    Old Timer Evangelion's Avatar
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    Jay, you're a plagiarist - pure and simple. You tried to pass someone else's work off as your own. That's dishonest, even if you can't bring yourself to admit that it's plagiarism.

    It would have taken no effort at all to quote White in the proper manner, but this was never your intention. You wanted to be "seen of men." That's called "pride" - a typical human failing, and one for which Christ condemned the Pharisees.

    Your plagiarism is particularly frustrating to those of us (such as myself) with a high level of education. I do not take kindly to dwarves who stand on the shoulders of giants and pretend to be giants themselves. I worked hard for the education that I have, and I see no reason why plagiarists should be treated lightly. If you think that "posting doesn't count", then we can all abandon any thought of a legitimate series of debates at TOL. Heck, I might as well start plagiarising right now. Yeah, that's it. I'll plagiarise your own Website, Jay - and if you complain, I'll tell you that it doesn't count because I haven't published anything.

    Pathetic.
    Sanctus, sanctus, sanctus,
    Dominus Deus Sabaoth.
    Pleni sunt coeli et terra gloria tua.


    I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.

  7. #22
    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Evangelion, I have caught you a few times failing to cite all the sources that you use. I have cited my sources (when using quotes, etc) and will continue to do so.

    D.A. Carson, Dr. J White, Augustine, etc are teachers who have taught theological concepts/ideas that are nothing new, perhaps packaged differently, etc but nothing new. I may package them alittle differently myself. These ideas are true ideas that were expressed with the intent not to be published but to be discussed and I have sought to cite their sources (which I have done). No big deal...

    You are hypocrite of the worse kind...

    Look at my thread I created just for you asking some pointed questions about the concepts/quotes you often use on TOL?
    Last edited by Freak; July 10th, 2002 at 03:00 PM.
    Jesus Loves You

  8. #23
    Old Timer Evangelion's Avatar
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    ROTFL... As previously noted, you're all hot air and no argument. You are lying when you accuse me of plagiarism and "borrowing." I've challenge you to prove it, and you've taken shelter in loose generalisations. Meanwhile, I accused you of plagiarism and proved it beyond any shadow of a doubt.

    That's the bottom line.
    Sanctus, sanctus, sanctus,
    Dominus Deus Sabaoth.
    Pleni sunt coeli et terra gloria tua.


    I am a Christadelphian. Click here to see my confession of faith.

  9. #24
    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    The bottom line is this...I have cited my sources....and will continue to do so....this was a formal debate in which I would acknowledge all my sources at the end....

    You are on the other hand have chosen to ignore the fact you borrow from John Thomas (the founder of your cult) without even acknowledging him...

    ROTL ROTL>>>>
    Jesus Loves You

  10. #25
    Journeyman drdeutsch's Avatar
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    this was a formal debate in which I would acknowledge all my sources at the end....
    Whoa, Whoa, Whoa! Why wait until the end? If I'm going to be reading someone else's work, I want to know about it immediately prior to or following their work. You suddenly decide (I don't remember it being brought up earlier) that you're going to wait until after the 10th round to give credit where credit is due? That's fine if you want to use endnotes in a formal paper, but when you're making several separate posts, an in-text citation is the preferred method.

    God bless,
    Dr. Deutsch
    Praecipitatum verius quam editum "Thrown together rather than edited."
    -Erasmus describing his Textus Receptus (the MS the KJV/NKJV is translated from)

  11. #26
    Over 3000 post club Freak's Avatar
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    Thanks for the comments....I agree
    Jesus Loves You

  12. #27
    Journeyman me again's Avatar
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    Exclamation Noticeable Change in Tempo

    Snip...

    I suddenly realised why Jay's latest set of rebuttals were so cogent.
    Yes, I noticed that too. Suddenly, materials were properly referenced and there were no grammatical mistakes.

    It was very noticeable because Freak's predictable tempo was abruptly halted and was replaced with cogent writings.

    I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed it.
    Favorite scripture:
    • And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Rev. 11:15)
    TheologyReview.com

  13. #28
    Over 750 post club Flipper's Avatar
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    Nice horseshoe hidden in your boxing glove there, Jay. You're boxing with the heavy-hitters.

    Apparently, we may have yet another Christian who thinks stealing is okay when its someone else's written material (are you reading this, Matt?). What is with you guys?

    I guess that's another name I can add to my list of the dysfunctional moral absolutists who apparently think that redemption gives them a carte blanche.

    I have always cited my sources and will formally during the debate... this was a formal debate in which I would acknowledge all my sources at the end
    Riiight. "I was only borrowing the TV. I was going to put it back at the end of the night I promise, officer."

    What formal debate rules were you following, Jay?

  14. #29
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    Read my above post. Do you think Jay was referring to that?
    For Greek conversion, click here.
    <opinions expressed in this post are not necessarily those of TOL or the TOL Holding Company, and are in fact probably either wrong or dangerous or something even worse. In the event of a world-wide catastrophe coming from one of these posts, all we can say is we did not do it and we warned you not to listen to this post, but NOOOOO, you knew what you were doing all along and yet you STILL managed to destroy part of a continent and yet missed Hollywood! Any resemblance to mathematicians dead or alive is strictly on purpose.>

  15. #30
    Pilgrimagain
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    Jay obvioulsy plagerized on this one. He did not cite Dr. White when pretty much copying him word for word. To deny this is either a mental condition or a lie.

    We need honesty here and we need a Moderator to step up to the plate and deal with the issue.

    Pilgrim

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