The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (HOF thread)

c.moore

New member
Re: That is hard to say, C. Moore...

Re: That is hard to say, C. Moore...

Originally posted by JustAChristian


How far back do you plan to go to find out that answer? If you go back to the apostles you'll probably get an answer more than you can imagine. If you go back to the beginning of this thread you'll probably not find quite as many, but there will be a few thinking hard about it....

JustAChristian :thumb:


You said not many , or maybe none.
It looks like this is a waste of time like paul tryed to convince , and bible whip the theologians through debate and aurgue.
I think we can be A winning christian by the life we live rather by the talk we sometimes don`t walk.:D

peace
 

Freak

New member
Originally posted by Francisco
c.moore,
Referring to my post to Jerry Shugart above, the church has always held the belief that water baptism regenerates the soul through the Holy Spirit. It was not until the time of the reformation that any large body of supposed believers in Christ took up the opposite belief, that water baptism is a mere symbol.

So the only change was on the part of those Protestants who chose to follow the man-made beliefs of John Calvin.

God Bless,

Francisco

You said: the church has always held the belief that water baptism regenerates the soul through the Holy Spirit.

That is a lie from the pit. The First Century Church believed water merely symbolized the death, burial, and bodily resurrection of Jesus and the newness of life He offers to all. For Paul told the believers at Corinth that "I did not come to baptize but to preach the Gospel." Paul understood the distinction between the Gospel and the water and so did the early church.
 

Francisco

New member
Freak,
You said: the church has always held the belief that water baptism regenerates the soul through the Holy Spirit.

That is a lie from the pit. The First Century Church believed water merely symbolized the death, burial, and bodily resurrection of Jesus and the newness of life He offers to all. For Paul told the believers at Corinth that "I did not come to baptize but to preach the Gospel." Paul understood the distinction between the Gospel and the water and so did the early church.
If that's so, would you care to explain the multiple first and second century writings I've quoted that proclaims baptism as a sacrament that removes sins and regenerates our souls?

Can you provide any writings from this time period that would refute the writings I've quoted?

I'm sure the answer to both my questions is NO. In that case, why don't you go find a thread on something you know about?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Originally posted by Francisco
Jerry,

Don't forget to answer my last post, but I wanted to interject here as well. (excuse me for butting in here Apollos)

Your problem seems to be if man's will is in any way involved, then it can't be of grace, because it is of man's will which you liken to works.

So is it by man's will when they profess Jesus Christ? Is it by man's will that you respond to altar call and accept Jesus Christ? Is it by man's will that we even consider accepting Jesus Christ? Is it by man's will that we decide to repent? Is it by man's will that we decide to obey, or disobey, one of God's commands?

Personally, I believe the Holy Spirit is involved in anything good that we do, kind of prompting us to do it. But it is by our will that we choose to do something good and cooperate with God's grace, or choose to not cooperate. The same holds true for baptism. God's grace is there for us if we only choose to submit to the water baptism he commanded.

Now, back to my last post to you. You asked for a verse that shows water baptism is necessary. I gave you John 3:4-5 with myriad supporting evidence. So now you have your verse that proves water baptism is necessary. Why don't you throw away your man-made theology and come to the theology proclaimed in scripture?

God Bless,

Francisco

Francisco,

Scripture declares that man´s will is not involved at all in the born again experience.When someone believes the gospel in their heart they are born of God.Therefore,the pagan idea that the sinner is born of God when he submits to the rite of water baptism cannot be true.

You seem to think that it is by the "will" that one "repents" or "accepts" the Lord Jesus.

Well,are you not aware that you cannot "will" yourself to believe anything which you do not "believe" to be true?It is a fact that when a man "believes" anything that his "belief" is not a result of his "will",but instead his "belief" is based on "evidence".

And "faith" cometh by hearing,and hearing by the word of God"(Ro.10:17).

The "gospel" contains the "evidence" that "while we were sinners,Christ died for us" and that "when we were enemies,we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son,much more,being reconciled,we shall be saved by His life"(Ro.5:8,19).

When the sinner hears and believes the gospel,he believes it based on the evidence,and not because of the fact that he "wills" himself to believe it.

And once he believes,then it is by man´s "will" that he decides to obey any or all of God´s commands.This is called the "obedience of faith"(Ro.16:26).

But this "obedience" follows "faith".

Next,you say that John 3:4-5 is a verse that teaches that submitting to the rite of water baptism is absolutely essential for one to be born of God.

However,there is no evidence that these words refer to what is called Christian baptism as commanded by the Lord at Matthew 28:19.

From the context of the Nicodemus sermon we can see that the Lord Jesus said that Nicodemus should know what the words in regard to the baptism of "water and of the Spirit" were in reference to.He said:

"Art thou a teacher of Israel,and knowest not these things?"(Jn.3:10).

So the Lord said that Nicodemus should know about the meaning of the baptism "of water and of the Spirit". The Lord was speaking about some distinctive truth contained in the OT Scriptures,which should have been familiar to any teacher of Israel.

The Lord´s words are not in regard to what is called "Christian baptism",because this baptism had not yet been instituted.Even the Lord´s Apostles knew nothing about it,so how as it possible that Nicodemus did?

The only baptism then known was that of John the Baptist,and that baptism was expressly contrasted with the Spirit´s work (Mt.3:2).Therefore,it becomes obvious that the Lord´s words in regard to the baptism of "the water and of the Spirit" could not possibly be in reference to "Christian baptism".

However,we know that the words in regard to this baptism of "water and of the Spirit" is a "type" of a Spiritual reality.We know this by the Lord´s words to Nicodemus:

"If I have told you earthly things,and you believe not,how shall you believe if I tell you heavenly things"(Jn.3:12).

A "type" is a "earthly" or "temporal" thing that is used to illustrate a "heavenly",or "spiritual" reality.The Lord´s words were spoken in terms using "earthly" symbols in order to illustrate a "spiritual truth".

And the "earthly" things came from the OT.As Augustine said,"The New is in the Old contained;The Old is by the New explained."

So now that it has been determined that the words of the Lord in regard to the birth of "water and of the Spirit" are not in reference to "Christian baptism,it s necessary to go back to the OT to see what Nicodemus should have familiar with.And that is reserved for a latter time.

But again we can see that you have yet been able to provide even one verse that states that submitting to the rite of water baptism is necessary for alvation.

In His grace,--Jerry
 

Apollos

New member
Man always has a choice !!!

Man always has a choice !!!

Jerry –

It is at least good to see that you did not deny that you had those –2- verses totally out of CONTEXT. Perhaps truth is making an impression upon you ??

John 1:13 – “Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh; nor of the will of man, but of God.”

In reference to this verse you said…
This verse is clearly in reference to how a sinner is born of God.The "process",my friend!
This is exactly my point !! Why do you choose to mis-apply the point made here by John ?? You are a man in turmoil Jerry!!

I agree, the verse does speak of the PROCESS that is called being “born of God”. The process to be “born of God” came entirely by GOD’s will. Man had nothing to do with the PROCESS coming about or coming into existence. Thus this passage is NOT addressing what part man performs to become “born of God”, or how man participates in the process, but rather that the process came to be entirely by what God willed. The physical, the fleshly had no part in the process being set into place !!

Verse 12 above it, which you gave only lip-service to, illustrates that MAN does have a part in being “born of God” – that is, man has a part in the PROCESS !! Man MUST believe and man must receive !! This is called FAITH !! Faith comes when man HEARS the word – Romans 10:17 !! Man must do something !!

"Of HIS OWN WILL begot he us with the word of truth..." - James.1:18
. It was indeed by God’s will that man was to be “begotten” by the word of truth. In that word of truth GOD reveals that man must receive and believe that WORD OF TRUTH !! cf. John 1:12, 1 Peter 1:23.

Acts 13:46 - And Paul and Barnabas spake out boldly, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first be spoken to you. Seeing ye thrust it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Acts 2:40 – And with many other words did [Peter] testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Hey Jerry, verse 41 tells us that those who RECEIVED the word (of truth) were (water) BAPTIZED !!! It is so hard to get past that word of truth, huh ??

First the sinner must "believe",and then he will choose to "receive" him.But "believing" comes first.And a man "believes" something based on the evidence,and not by his will.
This is more of your turmoil Jerry which shows you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. You said earlier man has no CHOICE!! Now you say man will choose to receive.

Man must hear the word – Romans 10:17. Man chooses to receive that word or reject it. – cf. Acts 2:40, 7:51. Man must confess Christ as Lord – Romans 10:10. Man must repent ! – Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9.

And the final step in the “process” of being BORN OF GOD requires – REQUIRES per the will of God – baptism…in WATER… for the remission of sins !!! Acts 2:38, 22:16, Romans 6, 1 Cor. 12:13, 1 Cor. 6:11, Mark 16:16.

Jerry, it is GOD’s WILL that man FOLLOW the “process”. Man has a choice to follow it or not !!! (Acts 13:46). Get real !!

Water baptism is a part of the “process” as determined by the will of God through which man appropriates the salvation God offers man by His grace !!!
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Apollos,

First of all,I have no idea of what you are speaking of when you say that I used two verses out of context.Please explain.

Next,I never said that man has no part in the born again experience.Please refrain from mis-quoting me.

I said that man´s "will" is not involved in being born of God.

And "man does not choose to receive the word or reject it",as you say.Instead,he either "believes" the word or he does not believe it.And as I said before,"believing"is a thing that is dependent upon "evidence",and not on our "will".

And you admit that the following verse desribes the process" of the new birth:

"Who were born,not of blood,nor of the will of the flesh,nor of the will of man,but of God"(Jn.1:13).

John is describing the process whereby the sinner is born again.

He is born of God.

He does not become born again by "the will of the flesh",nor "by the will of man".

This verse has nothing to do about the origins of the new birth or how it came into existence at all,as you seem to think.You say,"The process to be 'born of God' came entirely by GOD´S will.Man has nothing to do with the PROCESS coming about or coming into existence."

Again,this verse is not describing how the process came into existence,but instead is describing the "process" itself.

Man is born of God.He is not born of the will of the flesh nor is he born of his own will.And that completly rules out the idea that in order for a sinner to be "born of God" he must submit (which requires the will of man) to the rite of water baptism.

In His grace,--Jerry
 
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Francisco

New member
Jerry,
Francisco,

Scripture declares that man´s will is not involved at all in the born again experience.When someone believes the gospel in their heart they are born of God.Therefore,the pagan idea that the sinner is born of God when he submits to the rite of water baptism cannot be true.
Scripture only says that we are reborn not of our will, but of God. It never says 'man's will is not involved at all in the born again experience'. You are adding those words to the verse through your preconceived notion about baptism.

You seem to think that it is by the "will" that one "repents" or "accepts" the Lord Jesus.

Well,are you not aware that you cannot "will" yourself to believe anything which you do not "believe" to be true?It is a fact that when a man "believes" anything that his "belief" is not a result of his "will",but instead his "belief" is based on "evidence".
That's NOT what I said. Here is exactly what I said: 'So it's NOT by our will, but by the Grace of God that we choose to submit to water baptism to begin with.' If the Spirit prompts us to do something, and we obey, then it is not by our will that we do it but because we were 'called' to do it.

And "faith" cometh by hearing,and hearing by the word of God"(Ro.10:17).

The "gospel" contains the "evidence" that "while we were sinners,Christ died for us" and that "when we were enemies,we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son,much more,being reconciled,we shall be saved by His life"(Ro.5:8,19).

When the sinner hears and believes the gospel,he believes it based on the evidence,and not because of the fact that he "wills" himself to believe it.
When the sinner hears and believes the gospel, it is NOT because he 'believes it based on the evidence' as you say. It is because he or she has received the grace necessary to believe it.

You've contradicted yourself with this statement Jerry. In one place you say we believe because of the 'evidence', as if you can will yourself to believe based on information. Then in another place you say, 'Well,are you not aware that you cannot "will" yourself to believe anything which you do not "believe" to be true?' Your statements are as contradictory and convoluted as your theology.

And once he believes,then it is by man´s "will" that he decides to obey any or all of God´s commands.This is called the "obedience of faith"(Ro.16:26).

But this "obedience" follows "faith".
But we can not will to obey. Remember Jerry, nothing good can happen except by the grace of God. So it can rightly be said that 'by the grace of God' we choose to obey the Lord's commands. So when we respond to God's command to be baptized, it is not by our will but by the grace given us through the Holy Spirit that we obey.

Next,you say that John 3:4-5 is a verse that teaches that submitting to the rite of water baptism is absolutely essential for one to be born of God.

However,there is no evidence that these words refer to what is called Christian baptism as commanded by the Lord at Matthew 28:19.
Jerry, I gave you pages of evidence! First, the verse does say we must be 'born of water and the spirit' to enter the kingdom of God. Then I showed you between 20 and 30 quotations from writers who spoke Greek as there native language, that all agree this verse speaks specifically of water baptism. You have not even attempted to refute this evidence except for accusing Clement of Alexandria and Cyril of Jerusalem of using 'pagan' words like 'enlightened' and 'sealed'. Of course you gave no evidence these words were only used by pagans, because there is of course no such evidence and your whole argument was baseless.

From the context of the Nicodemus sermon we can see that the Lord Jesus said that Nicodemus should know what the words in regard to the baptism of "water and of the Spirit" were in reference to.He said:

"Art thou a teacher of Israel,and knowest not these things?"(Jn.3:10).

So the Lord said that Nicodemus should know about the meaning of the baptism "of water and of the Spirit". The Lord was speaking about some distinctive truth contained in the OT Scriptures,which should have been familiar to any teacher of Israel.
LOL. Jerry, I know you're not that dense. Why are you putting on this act?

The verse you refer to is John 3:10, towards the end of Jesus discussing the need to be born again with Nicodemus. Let's take a look at this verse in context:

5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."
9 Nicodemus said to him, "How can these things be?"
10 Jesus answered him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?


Maybe you don't realize it Jerry, but verse 8 speaks directly of something Nicodemus, as a 'teacher if Israel' should have known. It is a reference to the book of Ecclesiastes, specifically chapter 11 verse 5:

5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.

If you are using a KJV bible you should see the reference to Eccles. 11:5 right under John 3:8. Of course Nicodemus should realize that the Spirit can work in ways that are unfathomable for him, so he should not have been surprised that we must be 'born of the Spirit'.

The Lord´s words are not in regard to what is called "Christian baptism",because this baptism had not yet been instituted.Even the Lord´s Apostles knew nothing about it,so how as it possible that Nicodemus did?

The only baptism then known was that of John the Baptist,and that baptism was expressly contrasted with the Spirit´s work (Mt.3:2).Therefore,it becomes obvious that the Lord´s words in regard to the baptism of "the water and of the Spirit" could not possibly be in reference to "Christian baptism".
Jesus was explaining what would become Christian baptism to Nicodemus. And Jesus had already laid the foundation for this teaching by giving us the example of Christian baptism when He was baptized by John the Baptist in the Jordan. Jesus went into the WATER, and as He came out of the WATER, the Holy Spirit descended on Him in the form of a dove. Jesus had to begin the teaching on baptism somewhere, so for you to argue 'The Lord´s words are not in regard to what is called "Christian baptism",because this baptism had not yet been instituted' is an invalid argument.

However,we know that the words in regard to this baptism of "water and of the Spirit" is a "type" of a Spiritual reality.We know this by the Lord´s words to Nicodemus:

"If I have told you earthly things,and you believe not,how shall you believe if I tell you heavenly things"(Jn.3:12).

A "type" is a "earthly" or "temporal" thing that is used to illustrate a "heavenly",or "spiritual" reality.The Lord´s words were spoken in terms using "earthly" symbols in order to illustrate a "spiritual truth".
You have still not refuted me on a single issue Jerry. How can you say 'we know that the words in regard to baptism...' when you have not proven any of these things you 'know'?

Of course baptism is an 'earthly' thing! Why would one need to be baptized in heaven? But the 'type', or I should actually say 'types', existed long before Jesus taught Nicodemus. One of the 'types' was Noah in the ark. Peter tells us this is a type of the 'baptism' THAT SAVES US. Another type is that of Naamen, who was cured by dipping himself seven times in the Jordan. And the last 'type' of our Christian baptism, the clearest example of all, was Jesus being baptized in the Jordan and 'receiving' the Holy Spirit as it descended in the form of a dove.

Consider what Tertullian said about this 'earthly' thing called baptism:

"Baptism itself is a corporal act by which we are plunged into the WATER, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from our sins"

Yes baptism is a corporal or 'earthly' act, but it's effect is spiritual in that we receive the Holy Spirit in baptism, just as Jesus Christ demonstrated for us.

And the "earthly" things came from the OT. As Augustine said,"The New is in the Old contained;The Old is by the New explained."
And I agree totally with Augustine's statement, just as I agree with his statement when he said:

The WATER, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the SPIRIT effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, BOTH regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam" (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).

So now that it has been determined that the words of the Lord in regard to the birth of "water and of the Spirit" are not in reference to "Christian baptism,it s necessary to go back to the OT to see what Nicodemus should have familiar with.And that is reserved for a latter time.

But again we can see that you have yet been able to provide even one verse that states that submitting to the rite of water baptism is necessary for alvation.
I'm sure you proved something in your own mind, but the rest of us don't see things through the same man-made preconceptions you look through. No Jerry, you have proven nothing and have still not refuted the copious evidence that John 3:4-5 speaks specifically of the necessity of water baptism.

Why don't you give up the convoluted man-made theology you follow, and follow the theology proclaimed by the Word of God?

God Bless,

Francisco
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Francisco,

We cannot "submit" to the act of water baptism unless we exert our own will.You yourself say that "it is not by our own will,but by the grace of God that WE SUBMIT to water baptism."

That makes no sense whatsoever.We may be "compelled" by the Holy Spirit to submit to the act,but it remains the "will" of man that is responible for the actual act.

You must understand the process of how the sinner is born of God.First of all,in his natural state he cannot even understand the spiritual truths of God.In his natural state he is an enemy of God:

"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God;it is not subject to the law of God,neither,indeed,can be"(Ro.8:7).

He cannot not enter the kingdom of God,much less see it,without a supernatual birth.And that does not happen until he is born again when he hears and believes the "gospel" that comes in the power of the Holy Spirit:

"Being born again,not of corruptible seed,but of incorruptible,by the word of God"(1Pet.1:23).

By the word of God which comes to the sinner in the power of the Holy Spirit:

"...by them who have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven"(1Pet.1:12).

"For our gospel came not unto you in word only,but also in power,and in the Holy Spirit"(1Thess.1:5).

So it is by the gospel that comes in the power of the Holy Spirit that a man is born of God.The second that he hears and believes the "gospel of his salvation" he is born of God.

And all this happens before a person is water baptized.It is by the WORD OF GOD that a person is born of God.He is regenerated before he is baptized with water:

"Of His own will BEGOT HE US BY THE WORD OF TRUTH"(Jms.1:18).

And that is why Paul had the following answer to the Philippian jailer´s question,"What must I do to be saved?":

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,and thou shalt be saved,and thy house"(Acts16:30,31).

It is not until the sinner is reborn that he obeys the command to be baptized with water.This is called the "obedience of faith"(Ro.16:26).This "obedience" follows faith.

Here is your strange idea in regard to "believing" the gospel.You say:

"When the sinner hears and believes the gospel,it is NOT because he 'believes it based on the evidence',as you say.It is because he or she has received the grace necessary to believe it."

Yes,the sinner has received the grace necessary to "believe" it,but that does not change the fact that he must still "believe" the gospel,and his "belief" results from the evidence that is presented to him that is contained in the gospel.

He must first believe that he is a sinner--"while we were yet sinners Christ died for us"(Ro.5:8).

It is the Holy Spirit that comes with the gospel that "convicts" the sinner that he is indeed a sinner (Jn.16:8).He must first believe this before he can even know that he is in need of a Savior.Then he will believe the truth that "when we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son,much more,being reconciled,we shall be saved by His life"(Ro.5:10).

And when he believes that,he is "born of God".And that happens before he takes part in the rite of water baptism.

Next,it is you who are "dense",and not me.You attempt to discredit me by saying that I have conradicted myself.You say:

"In one place you say that we believe because of the 'evidence',as if you can will yourself to believe based on information."

But I never said that anyone can "will" themselves to believe based on information.In fact,I stated the opposite.

But despite that,you misrepresent my position and then attack that straw man.You next say:

"Then in another place you say,'Well,are you aware that you cannot 'will' yourself to believe anything which you do not 'believe' to be true?' "

I did not contradict myself in any way.I said that one cannot "will" himself to believe,and I never contradicted those words.It is you who misrepresented what I said,and then said:

"Your statements are as contradictory and convoluted as your theology."

Way to go,Francisco.Misrepresent what I said and then use that misrepresentation in an effort to undermine me and my theology.It seems that you have reverted back to your old tricks.Or perhaps you just misunderstood and you would now like to set the record straight.

And lastly,could it be possible that the Lord´s words to Nicodemus were in reference to the "water" and the "Spirit" mentioned at Exekiel 36 and to the "regeneration" that is described in the next chapter?

The verse that you speak of says nothing about a "regeneration" nor does it speak of "water" and "Spirit",as do the words of Ezekiel.Therefore,it would seem obvious that the Lord´s words were in reference to the prophecies of Zechariah.

So I will await your answer to your misrepresentaion of what I said in regard to "believing".

In His grace,--Jerry
 

Francisco

New member
Jerry,
Francisco,

We cannot "submit" to the act of water baptism unless we exert our own will. You yourself say that "it is not by our own will,but by the grace of God that WE SUBMIT to water baptism."

That makes no sense whatsoever.We may be "compelled" by the Holy Spirit to submit to the act,but it remains the "will" of man that is responible for the actual act.
If that makes no sense to you, then you must not understand the concept of being 'called' by God. It doesn't surprise me as you don't seem to understand much having to do with God, unless it is ingrained by the 16th century man-made theology you follow.

And sense you can't understand that God calls us through the Spirit, I doubt you can understand all the other things I've already explained.

You claim that belief in the gospel is by the will of man, but I follow the scriptural teaching that 'no man can come to the Father except that which is drawn'. That makes it not by man's will, but by God's grace that we believe the gospel and accept Jesus Christ.

Well, I've made my case, and you've refuted nothing. So, until you can refute my evidence, I'll consider your end-runs around the arguments, and your non-responsiveness to my direct evidence, as an admission that you can not support your claims. They are baseless.

You can continue to explain why all the different texts don't really mean what they say. You can go on ignoring that your man-made theology on baptism wasn't accepted until the Reformation. You can go on ignoring the fact that the early church held my belief, and the same church has held the same belief for 2,000 years. And you can continue ignoring the fact that most Christians still hold the biblical belief in water baptism for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

But as long as you choose this path, you know you are following an unscriptural man-made theology, NOT the Word of God.

God Bless,

Francisco
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Francisco,

I am sick and tired of you misrepresenting what I say.

I never said that I "claim that belief in the gospel is by the will of man."

If you will check all of my posts on this thread,you will see that I am teaching just the OPPOSITE!!!

Why do you continue to do this,Francisco?

Now I ask you to quote my words where I say what you say I did,or APOLOGIZE for misrepresenting what I said.

Next,you say that you believe the Bible where it says that "no man can come to Me,except the Father,Who hath sent Me,draw him"(Jn.6:44).

Well,I believe that also,and I never said that was not true.But you must also realize that since His death upon the Cross ALL men are drawn unto Him.Here are the words of the Lord:

"And I,if I be lifted up from the earth,will draw all men unto Me"(Jn.12:32).

So since all men do not have faith,then it is equally clear that being "drawn" to Him does not mean that someone will automatically become saved.They must FIRST believe the gospel.And that is not an act of the "will".

And it is I who continue to provide my evidence from the Holy Scriptures,it is you who continues to base yor arguments on the words of men that cannot be found in the Holy Scriptures.It is you who has a man-made theology.

Now,if I said that "the belief of the gospel is through the will of man",then I am sure you an quote me.I await that quote.

In His grace,--Jerry
 
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Francisco

New member
Jerry,

This shows how full of hot air you are:
Francisco,

I am sick and tired of you misrepresenting what I say.

I never said that I "claim that belief in the gospel is by the will of man."
My point is that you keep contradicting yourself on this issue. You say it's not by the will of man that we believe the gospel, it's by 'evidence'. But that is a contradiction because belief based on evidence necessitates that one wills themself to listen to the gospel being preached, then one has to will themselves to weigh the evidence, then one has to will themselves to make a decision based on the evidence. It's your theology that doesn't make sense AND IS NOT SCRIPTURAL.

My theology is based directly on scripture. You can not believe in the gospel without grace:

'...and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son CHOOSES TO REVEAL HIM.' (Matthew 11:27b)

'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me DRAWS him.' (John 6:44a)


This allows no room for your 'evidence' Jerry. Only by the grace of God can we come to believe in the gospel.

So it is not that I am misrepresenting you, it is that your statements are convoluted and contradictory.

Read the Bible Jerry, and throw the preconceived notions of your man-made theology away!

God Bless,

Francisco
 
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Francisco,

I never contradicted myself on any issue.In order to make it appear as if I had,you were forced to put words in my mouth that I never said.And now you refuse to admit that you misrepresented what I said,and instead you continue to insist that I contradicted myself.

And the fact of the matter is that it takes "belief" in the gospel in order to be saved.And one cannot "will" himself to believe anything.Yes,a person can will himself to listen to the gospel but that does not change the fact that one cannot "will" himself to believe it.

And it is "belief" in the gospel that brings everlasting life.The Philippian jailer asked Paul,"What must I do to be saved?".To which Paul answered,"BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ,and thou shalt be saved"(Acts16:30,31).

The sinner either believes the gospel based on the evidence or he does not.And yes,the Lord "reveals" the truth to us through the gospel which comes in the power of the Holy Spirit(1Pet.1:12;1Thess.1:5).However,some men "resist the Holy Spirit"(Acts7:51) and never come to the knowledge of the truth.

However,those that do not resist the Holy Spririt consider the evidence and make a determination as to whether or not it is true based on their reason":

"And Paul,as his manner was,went into them,and three sabbath days REASONED with them out of the Scriptures"(Acts17:2).

Paul "reasoned" with them and his evidence was the "gospel" itself and other EVIDENCE contained in the OT Scriptures.

"And he (Paul) REASONED in the synagogue every sabbath,and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks"(Acts18:4).

And when he had "reasoned" with the Jews at Berea,they searced the Scriptures looking for the EVIDENCE as to whether or not what Paul said was true or not:

"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica,in that they received the word with all readiness of mind,AND SEARCHED THE SCRIPTURES DAILY,WHETHER THOSE THINGS WERE SO.Therefore,many of them believed"(ACts17:11,12).

So the Holy Scriptures make it plain that one "believes" based upon his "reasoning" as to whether or not the evidence presented is true or not

And that is not a function of the "will".One cannot "will" himself to believe anything that he does not believe is true.

And you say that there is no room for evidence.Well,if that is the case why did those at Berea "search the Scriptures daily,whether those things were true" if there is no room for evidence?

And when one "believes" the gospel and has faith,he knows that the EVIDENCE presented to him is true--"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for,the EVIDENCE of things not seen"(Heb.11:1).

It is not that my ideas are "convoluted",as you say,but instead you only prove that you do not even understand even the most elementary things of God.

"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers,ye have need that one teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God,and are become such as have need of milk,and not of solid food"(Heb.5:12).

In His grace,--Jerry
 

Francisco

New member
Jerry,
Francisco,

I never contradicted myself on any issue.In order to make it appear as if I had,you were forced to put words in my mouth that I never said.And now you refuse to admit that you misrepresented what I said,and instead you continue to insist that I contradicted myself.

And the fact of the matter is that it takes "belief" in the gospel in order to be saved.And one cannot "will" himself to believe anything.Yes,a person can will himself to listen to the gospel but that does not change the fact that one cannot "will" himself to believe it.

And it is "belief" in the gospel that brings everlasting life.The Philippian jailer asked Paul,"What must I do to be saved?".To which Paul answered,"BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ,and thou shalt be saved"(Acts16:30,31).

The sinner either believes the gospel based on the evidence or he does not.And yes,the Lord "reveals" the truth to us through the gospel which comes in the power of the Holy Spirit(1Pet.1:12;1Thess.1:5).However,some men "resist the Holy Spirit"(Acts7:51) and never come to the knowledge of the truth.

However,those that do not resist the Holy Spririt consider the evidence and make a determination as to whether or not it is true based on their reason":

"And Paul,as his manner was,went into them,and three sabbath days REASONED with them out of the Scriptures"(Acts17:2).

Paul "reasoned" with them and his evidence was the "gospel" itself and other EVIDENCE contained in the OT Scriptures.

"And he (Paul) REASONED in the synagogue every sabbath,and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks"(Acts18:4).

And when he had "reasoned" with the Jews at Berea,they searced the Scriptures looking for the EVIDENCE as to whether or not what Paul said was true or not:

"These were more noble than those in Thessalonica,in that they received the word with all readiness of mind,AND SEARCHED THE SCRIPTURES DAILY,WHETHER THOSE THINGS WERE SO.Therefore,many of them believed"(ACts17:11,12).

So the Holy Scriptures make it plain that one "believes" based upon his "reasoning" as to whether or not the evidence presented is true or not

And that is not a function of the "will".One cannot "will" himself to believe anything that he does not believe is true.

And you say that there is no room for evidence.Well,if that is the case why did those at Berea "search the Scriptures daily,whether those things were true" if there is no room for evidence?

And when one "believes" the gospel and has faith,he knows that the EVIDENCE presented to him is true--"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for,the EVIDENCE of things not seen"(Heb.11:1).

It is not that my ideas are "convoluted",as you say,but instead you only prove that you do not even understand even the most elementary things of God.

"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers,ye have need that one teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God,and are become such as have need of milk,and not of solid food"(Heb.5:12).

In His grace,--Jerry
You continue to contradict yourself. Look at what you are saying Jerry.

First you say you can not will yourself to believe the gospel (I agree).

Secondly, you say belief is based on evidence (I disagree, and so does scripture).

The contradiction is between 'belief based on evidence' and 'belief NOT based on will'. As I showed you in my last post, for a belief to be based on evidence, it must be based on our will, insofar as we must will to listen to the Gospel, will to weigh the 'evidence', and will to make a decision to believe or not believe. So your own reasoning here contradicts what you said earlier, that we don't believe based on our will.

There is much scripture that testifies against your 'belief based on evidence' and substantiates my belief that we can only 'believe in the gospel by the grace of God':

'...and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son CHOOSES TO REVEAL HIM.' (Matthew 11:27b)

'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me DRAWS him.' (John 6:44a)

22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."


Scripture is very clear that it is by God's will, not 'evidence' by which we come to believe in the Gospel. We believe in the Gospel BY THE GRACE OF GOD, not by 'evidence' Jerry. You know it, so admit your theory of 'belief based on evidence' is erroneous. Don't make me look like a fool for defending you when Apollos accused you of 'intellectual dishonesty'.

God Bless,

Francisco
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Francisco,

If it is only by God´s will that we come to believe the gospel,then why are not ALL men saved?After all,He wants all men to be saved:

"The Lord...is longsuffering toward us,not willing that any should persh,but that all should come to epentance"(2Pet.3:9).

Does He only will" that some will be saved?

And you only show your confusion when you say that belief is NOT based on evidence.Of course you disregarded the Scriptures which state EXPLICITLY that Paul REASONED with men out of the Scriptures.You also ignored the passage that said that those in Berea searched the Scriptures to see if what Paul said was true or not.

They were searching the Scriptures in order to find if what Paul was preaching was supported by evidence.

You jst will not believe the plain ord of Scriptue.You just ignore all the words that prove that Paul was REASONING with men by using the Scriptures as His evidence.

In HIs grace,--Jerry
 

Francisco

New member
Jerry,
Francisco,

If it is only by God´s will that we come to believe the gospel,then why are not ALL men saved?After all,He wants all men to be saved:

"The Lord...is longsuffering toward us,not willing that any should persh,but that all should come to epentance"(2Pet.3:9).

Does He only will" that some will be saved?
By our will we choose to cooperate with grace, obeying God's commands, or disobeying them. The grace is available to all, but without the cooperation of man's will to obey God, then you will not be saved.

However, our initial call to faith in the gospel relies exclusively on grace. Jesus told us no one can come to Him unless the Father draws him. So, no matter what 'evidence' there may be, our belief in God is by grace. Scripture tells us this in no uncertain terms:

'...and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son CHOOSES TO REVEAL HIM.' (Matthew 11:27b)

'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me DRAWS him.' (John 6:44a)

22 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."


It is by the Son's will, not our's Jerry, that we can come to the Gospel.

And you only show your confusion when you say that belief is NOT based on evidence.Of course you disregarded the Scriptures which state EXPLICITLY that Paul REASONED with men out of the Scriptures.You also ignored the passage that said that those in Berea searched the Scriptures to see if what Paul said was true or not.

They were searching the Scriptures in order to find if what Paul was preaching was supported by evidence.
No matter how much 'evidence' Paul presented to the Bereans, without the grace of God they could not believe it. If it were not God's will the Bereans believed Paul, they would not have believed any of Paul's evidence. If Jesus had not chosen to REVEAL the Father to the Bereans, they would never have been able to accept Paul's teaching, regardless of what 'evidence' he presented.

You jst will not believe the plain ord of Scriptue.You just ignore all the words that prove that Paul was REASONING with men by using the Scriptures as His evidence.
You just do not UNDERSTAND the plain word of scripture. 'No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him'. It's very easy to understand. And it does not conflict with Paul arguing from the Hebrew scriptures with the Bereans to show them Christ was foretold in the OT.

We can't believe in the Gospel no matter what 'evidence' is presented UNLESS THE FATHER DRAWS US. Only the people TO WHOM THE SON WILLS TO REVEAL HIM can believe in God.

Your 16th century man-made theology just doesn't coalesce with scripture. You have to explain away, ignore, and manipulate scripture to make any of your unorthodox beliefs seemingly fit. Throw these man-made notions away Jerry, and come to the scriptural truth.

God Bless,

Francisco
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Francisco,

Earlier I agreed with you that it is only by God´s grace that we are ever saved.It is only by the grace of God that one ever hears the "gospel of salvation."It is only by His grace that He even "reveals" the truth to us.

But once the truth is revealed to us,it is up to us to "believe" it.

And even though He "reveals" the truth,not all believe Him.

And the verses which you keep avoiding proves that it is up to man to "believe",and that "faith" comes by the evidence contained in the Holy Scriptures:

"So,then,faith cometh by hearing,and hearing by the word of God"(Ro.10:17).

And that is exactly what we see in regard to those whom Paul preached to.He "reasoned" with them out of the Scriptures:

"And Paul,as his manner was,went in unto them,and three sabbaths days REASONED WITH THEM OUT OF THE SCRIPTURES"(Acts17:2).

But since that does not fit your scheme of things,you just IGNORE wht is so plainly said.

"These were more noble than those at Thessalonica,in that they received the word with all readiness of mind,AND SEARCHED THE SCRIPTURES DAILY,WHETHER THOSE THINGS WERE SO.Therefore,many of them believed"(Acts17:11,12).

They were searching the Scriptures to find if there was any Scriptual evidence to support what Paul had told them.Why else do you suppose that they would be searching the Scriptures?

And after they did search the Scriptures,some of them did indeed find EVIDENCE that Paul was preaching the truth."Therefore,many of them believed".

Of course you that follow the church at Rome have no need to search the Scriptures.You believe that what the church says as to the meaning of Scripture no matter what the Scriptures actually say.In your opinion the church is the final authority as to the meaning of the Scriptures,so anything in the Scriptures that is in conflict with what the church says have no meaning to you.

And that is why you will not address these verses in regard to the fact that Paul "reasoned with them out of the Scriptures"(Acts17:2).

You believe that this is obviously wrong because it is in conflict what your church says.

In His grace,--Jerry
 

Francisco

New member
Jerry,
Francisco,

Earlier I agreed with you that it is only by God´s grace that we are ever saved.It is only by the grace of God that one ever hears the "gospel of salvation."It is only by His grace that He even "reveals" the truth to us.

But once the truth is revealed to us,it is up to us to "believe" it.
Here you argue that 'it is up to us (our will) to believe it (the Gospel).

You have argued in the past that the moment we accept the Gospel we are 'born again':

The second that he hears and believes the "gospel of his salvation" he is born of God.

And you also emphatically stated that our will is in no way involved in being born again:

I said that man´s "will" is not involved in being born of God.
and
Scripture declares that man´s will is not involved at all in the born again experience. When someone believes the gospel in their heart they are born of God.

So you say:

1 It is 'up to us to believe' indicating an action of our will
2 That when we believe we are 'born again'
3 But 'man's will is in no way involved in the born again experience.'

This is a perfect example of your convoluted, circular, and contradictory reasoning. It goes well with your convoluted, contradictory, man-made theology.

Do away with these man-made ideas that don't 'fit' Jerry, and come to the scriptural way of truth in Jesus Christ.

God Bless,

Francisco
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Francisco,

Have you reached a point on these forums that you cannot make your case without misrepresenting what I say?

I said,"It is up to us to believe it (the gospel)."

I said nothing about our "will" being involved.NOTHING!!!In fact,I have said over and over that "believing" is not a result of our will.And you have even gone so far as to agree with me.

But now you add words to my plain statement.You edit my words to a point that they no longer mean what I said.You write:

"Here you argue that 'it is up to us (our will) to believe it'(the Gospel).

You say that when I say that "it is up to us to believe" that this must mean that this is "an action of the will".But you give nothing to back up your point.Are we to believe it just because Francisco said so?Even though earlier you said that you agreed with me that "believing" is not a result of our will.

You have become so accustomed to changing the meaning of Scripture that now you think that you can also change the meaning of those with whom you are discussing the Scriptures.

You seem to have lost touch with all reality.You just cannot accept the fact that man´s "will" is not involved at all in the born again experience since that DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS what the church at Rome teaches.Rome teaches that in order to be "born of God",one must submit (through his "will") to the rite of water baptism.Therefore,by Rome´s teaching,a sinner is "born of God" when through his will he submits to that rite.

But that is not according to Scripture:

"Who were born,not of blood,nor of the will of the flesh,NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN,but of God"(Jn.1:13).

In His grace,--Jerry
 

Explosived

New member
Smile, God loves you!

Smile, God loves you!

The religious sect known as the "Church of Christ" has many peculiar and aberrant doctrines that are contrary to the word of God. It is a most deceptive and dangerous cult. Their teaching of baptismal regeneration is an age-old heresy that has damned millions to hell, and is still doing so today.
 

JustAChristian

New member
Re: Smile, God loves you!

Re: Smile, God loves you!

Originally posted by Explosived
The religious sect known as the "Church of Christ" has many peculiar and aberrant doctrines that are contrary to the word of God. It is a most deceptive and dangerous cult. Their teaching of baptismal regeneration is an age-old heresy that has damned millions to hell, and is still doing so today.

Here is a perfect picture of a very unhappy person, probably a Baptist or Methodist; maybe even an Adventist. Probably has lost a debate or two with members of the church of Christ. Is used to misrepresenting the church of Christ. Doesn't understand what a cult is. Doesn't want to accept that the church of Christ does not teach Baptismal Regeneration nor seeks to damn millions to Hell. Doesn't understand the work of the church of Christ at all. If he did, on any of these items, he would posted positive unrefutable proof of his statements.

JustAChristian :crackup:
 
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