My debate with Bob Enyart

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Jefferson

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I debated Bob Enyart on the issue of whether or not public stoning is the only Biblical method of capital punishment on his 12-3-02 show. I'm the first caller. Enyart brought up God sending fire and brimstone on people and opening up the earth and sucking them down to hell and things like that but that was God executing people. The issue is the method that human governments are allowed to use to execute people.

After I hung up, several minutes later Bob mentioned how governing authorities use the sword as God's ministers in the book of Romans. But again, this is not an execution. It is the equivalent to our police carrying guns. Police may kill someone with a gun but after a lawful trial, we do not execute people with guns.

Likewise, just because the "police" in Rome's day carried swords that does not mean God approved of the sword being used to execute a duly convicted criminal after a legal trial.

I still say Bob is wrong about this. Public stoning is the only method of execution found in the Bible.
 
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Jefferson

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No. It's the show entitled, "Jo Scott's not in jail." It's show #227.
 

Housefly

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I can see how favorably the rest of the world would look upon this too...

uhhh

They already think we are ingnorant, primitive fools. Let's give them some real fodder...

:)
 

Jefferson

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Originally posted by Housefly
I can see how favorably the rest of the world would look upon this too...

uhhh

They already think we are ingnorant, primitive fools. Let's give them some real fodder...

:)
We don't worship the false god of Public Acceptance on this forum Housefly.
 

Brother Vinny

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Jefferson said,

After I hung up, several minutes later Bob mentioned how governing authorities use the sword as God's ministers in the book of Romans. But again, this is not an execution. It is the equivalent to our police carrying guns. Police may kill someone with a gun but after a lawful trial, we do not execute people with guns.

Only because our government has become wishy-washy, wanting to make the death penalty as painless as possible. Death by firing squad is not unheard of in our country (or in others). And, when you really think about it, isn't using a gun just a very precise way of casting a stone at very fast speeds?

Likewise, just because the "police" in Rome's day carried swords that does not mean God approved of the sword being used to execute a duly convicted criminal after a legal trial.

Ah, but they did crucify their capital criminals, and nowhere do we see God's disapproval of this method. Certainly Jesus Himself could have said something about the injustice of this method of execution had He wanted to, no?

Stoning was given specifically to Israel. All God required of non-Israelite government was that the murderer's blood be shed (see Genesis 9:6). By this guideline, stoning is a just form of execution, as is crucifixion, and the guillotine, and the firing squad.
 

ApologeticJedi

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I believe that the Jews also used hanging as a method of execution as well. They were only told by God not to let the bodies hang on the tree overnight.

In some cases where the Bible calls for execution, the exact method to be used is not mentioned. It is obvious that judges are given the leverage to determine the proper course for themselves.

If that was your debate, I think you picked a really weak and unattainable position. It's really a stretch to suggest that God is only for death by stoning. To say it is tenuous is kind.
 

Nathon Detroit

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Originally posted by ApologeticJedi
I believe that the Jews also used hanging as a method of execution as well. They were only told by God not to let the bodies hang on the tree overnight.

In some cases where the Bible calls for execution, the exact method to be used is not mentioned. It is obvious that judges are given the leverage to determine the proper course for themselves.

If that was your debate, I think you picked a really weak and unattainable position. It's really a stretch to suggest that God is only for death by stoning. To say it is tenuous is kind.
Wow!! Long time no see. Great to have you back at TOL!!!
 

Paradõsis

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Paul

Only because our government has become wishy-washy, wanting to make the death penalty as painless as possible. Death by firing squad is not unheard of in our country (or in others). And, when you really think about it, isn't using a gun just a very precise way of casting a stone at very fast speeds?

No. A firing squad usually kills someone almost instantly, while stoning does not. The stoning of both Paul and Stephen in Acts demonstrates this.

There's one other form of punishment that needs to be mentioned: that which comes when people wallow in their own sins and heresies (e.g., enyartianism). In these cases God essentially hands the people over to Satan (or the heretics), so that the person might be wounded, and realising his error and repent, not die a spiritual death. Unfortunately, Saint Justin Popovich said that we can die thousands of spiritual deaths in this life, and Enyartians (ie. mid acts dispensationalist, theonomist, open theist, judgmentalist, righteous hatist, innovators extraordinaire) always seem to return to their own Enyartian vomit, even when they have a taste of truth.

Yuck. :(
 

Nathon Detroit

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Originally posted by Paradõsis There's one other form of punishment that needs to be mentioned: that which comes when people wallow in their own sins and heresies (e.g., enyartianism). In these cases God essentially hands the people over to Satan (or the heretics), so that the person might be wounded, and realising his error and repent, not die a spiritual death. Unfortunately, Saint Justin Popovich said that we can die thousands of spiritual deaths in this life, and Enyartians (ie. mid acts dispensationalist, theonomist, open theist, judgmentalist, righteous hatist, innovators extraordinaire) always seem to return to their own Enyartian vomit, even when they have a taste of truth.

Yuck. :(
Well its a darn good thing you aren't judgmental eh???? :rolleyes:
 

Nathon Detroit

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There are two kinds of judgmental people:

The kind that judges, AND the kind that judges like a hypocrite.

Ask yourself.... which one are you?
 

Poly

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My judgment is that I don't judge.:D :rolleyes:
 

ibowatjesusfeet

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I just listened to Jefferson's call. I'm pretty sure that crucifixion, beheading, and flogging (this could kill people) where all mentioned as public forms of execution.

--Ibowatjesusfeet

PS (Bob Enyart kind of sounds like one of those Christians that believes that a person should be severely punished for any crime they commit. Am I misinterpreting what he say?)
 
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Poly

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Originally posted by ibowatjesusfeet
I just listened to Jefferson's call. I'm pretty sure that crucifixion, beheading, and flogging (this could kill people) where all mentioned as public forms of execution.

--Ibowatjesusfeet

PS (Bod Enyard kind of sounds like one of those Christians that believes that a person should be severly punished for any crime they commit. Am I misinterpreting what he say?)

He believes that a person should be punished in accordance to how God says he should be punished depending on what crime was committed.
 

Bob Enyart

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Scriptures on methods of execution

Scriptures on methods of execution

Jefferson, hi, Bob Enyart here. Hey, thanks for calling. Your call caught me unprepared, so I didn’t have the verses at the tip of my tongue, but I argued that in addition to stoning, the Bible supports execution by fire and by sword. And I do think, God does not limit execution to these methods. Please consider:

(If this post is too long, I apologize. I need to learn forum etiquette.)

Fire
Lev 20:14 'If a man marries a woman and her mother, it is wickedness. They shall be burned with fire…’
Lev 21:9 'The daughter of any priest, if she profanes herself by playing the harlot, she profanes her father. She shall be burned with fire.’
And while I wouldn’t use as proof examples of heathens executing men by fire (Jer. 29:22, Dan. 3:20), I think Judah’s case is worth considering:
Gen. 38:24 …Judah was told, saying, "Tamar your daughter-in-law has played the harlot; furthermore she is with child by harlotry." So Judah said, "Bring her out and let her be burned!"
Note: This suggests that execution by fire was not introduced by Moses but already accepted in the time of the patriarchs. And while Judah was not a model of virtue, yet in this public action, he is at least seeking to appear righteous.

Sword
Exodus 32:27-28 "Thus says the LORD God of Israel: 'Let every man put his sword on his side, …and let every man kill his brother, every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.' " So the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses. And about three thousand men of the people fell that day.
1 Kings 2:8 [David said to Solomon:] "And see, you have with you Shimei… I swore to him by the LORD, saying, 'I will not put you to death with the sword.'
1 Kings 2:25, 34 [During Solomon’s time of wisdom and obedience, before his fall:] So King Solomon sent by the hand of Benaiah the son of Jehoiada; and he struck [Adonijah] down, and he died. … So Benaiah the son of Jehoiada went up and struck and killed him [strongly inferring by the sword, v. 8]…
1 Kings 18:40 And Elijah said to them, "Seize the prophets of Baal! Do not let one of them escape!" So they seized them; and Elijah brought them down to the Brook Kishon and executed them there.
Note: Today, on top of Mount Carmel stands a statue of the prophet Elijah holding a sword (see photo at http://www.virtualtravels.com/diary/israel99/images/001elijah.jpg), representing his execution of the 450 prophets of Baal. Do you think this tradition is incorrect, and that these hundreds of men were stoned? How many stones would have been needed? Would the bloody stones be reused? And though it were so late in the day (1 Kings 18:36), still Elijah had time enough to execute them all, apparently that day. It seems that executing that many men could be done quickly with a sword, but not by stoning. Thus, with the biblical precedents for the use of swords, this tradition seems far more reasonable than a supposition that Elijah had them all stoned.
Rom. 13:4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
Note: Jefferson, I read your rebuttal to my use of this verse, but please reconsider. The official is “God’s minister” who does not bear the sword in vain. Yes, the sword is a figure of speech for the power of the government. But it is a rather literal figure of speech, for officials carried swords, and swords were not used for beating but for killing, and men commonly were killed with official swords.

Hanging
Num. 25:1, 4 Now Israel… began to commit harlotry with the women of Moab… Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take all the leaders of the people and hang the offenders before the LORD, out in the sun…"
Josh 8:23-24, 26, 29-30 But the king of Ai they took alive, and brought him to Joshua. And it came to pass when Israel had made an end of slaying all the inhabitants of Ai…, and when they all had fallen by the edge of the sword until they were consumed, that all the Israelites returned to Ai and struck it with the edge of the sword. For Joshua did not draw back his hand, with which he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai. And the king of Ai he hanged on a tree until evening. And as soon as the sun was down, Joshua commanded that they should take his corpse down from the tree… Now Joshua built an altar to the LORD God of Israel…
Note: Joshua strongly implies that he executed this king by hanging. For, they took him alive, and made an end to the slaying, and then hanged the king.
Note also the official killing with swords and spears. Of course, these killings occurred in a battle, and similarly, David slew Goliath at the request of King Saul, with a sling; and Sisera was killed with a tent peg hammered through his skull (and Judges 5 records the song celebrating that killing). And remember that God approved of Phinehas the priest, grandson of Aaron, who thrust a javelin through the Jewish man and the Moabite woman (Num 25:7-8).
Deut. 21:22 "If a man has committed a sin deserving of death, and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree…”
Note: I believe that this hanging refers primarily to the treatment of the corpse after death. Yet, Joshua may have had this verse in mind when he hung Ai’s king. Also, the New Testament quotes this verse to refer to the crucifixion. Perhaps that is only a reference of convenience. But it might also indicate that this verse can refer to either the treatment of a corpse OR a method of execution. However, I believe that slowness of death by crucifixion causes that method to cross the line between execution and torture. And while I support corporal punishment of an eye for an eye, I oppose the use of torture.

Variable: Ex. 21:23-25 "But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."
Note: God gives some latitude to judges to determine the number of lashes (Deut. 25:2-3) or a fitting sentence. Thus, I believe the methods of execution in the Bible are examples, and not exhaustive of all acceptable forms. For example, electrocution was unavailable millennia ago but could be used today.

Thanks, -Bob
 
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