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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomO View Post
    Am I to understand you are a worthy Judge of mens hearts?
    Are you worthy to judge God's character?

    If ones understanding of omnipotence is that it states GOD uses HIS Children as puppets on strings then you would be right in considering this to not be an attribute of OUR LORD and to claim such an attribute to be a dark force.
    Psalm 17:13-14
    Arise, O LORD, disappoint him, cast him down: deliver my soul from the wicked, which is thy sword: From men which are thy hand, O LORD, from men of the world, which have their portion in this life, and whose belly thou fillest with thy hid treasure: they are full of children, and leave the rest of their substance to their babes.
    (emphasis mine)

    Stop judging by mere appearences and make a right judgement.
    Who are you to judge how I'm judging?

    So tell me Eli....do those who lack understanding of the Trinity risk Judgement as well?

    There is a difference between not understanding the Trinity and claiming that it is evil. The former is confusion, the latter is blasphemy.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eli_Cash View Post
    Acts 17:27-28 KJV
    That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
    (emphasis mine)
    Still doesn't say what you want it to say. Even the "every one of us" isn't everyone who is alive. It's everyone who is in Him.

    Perhaps not, but this one does.

    Matthew 11:21 KJV
    Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
    No it doesn't. This verse gives no one any reason to believe that He knows who is going to win the 2009 Super Bowl.

    Why would he do that which is against his character and attributes? That would contradict his omnipotence, not reinforce it.
    No it wouldn't.


  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eli_Cash View Post
    Are you worthy to judge God's character?
    That's quite a stretch you are making there.



    Who are you to judge how I'm judging?
    Yes.....now I understand. Hypocrisy often leads to red rep scores.



    There is a difference between not understanding the Trinity and claiming that it is evil. The former is confusion, the latter is blasphemy.
    Whatever.....have fun walking your Dogma.
    Destroy another fetus now, we don't like children anyhow, I've seen the future baby......... It is Murder.
    ~Leonard Cohen



    “If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.”
    ~Dalai Lama XIV

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Still doesn't say what you want it to say. Even the "every one of us" isn't everyone who is alive. It's everyone who is in Him.
    He was addressing non-believers there.

    No it doesn't. This verse gives no one any reason to believe that He knows who is going to win the 2009 Super Bowl.
    It shows that he knows things that aren't the case, or as you put it "that don't exist". Tyre and Sidon did not see Jesus' works, and yet he was competent to speak of how they would have reacted if they had. Unless you think he was just guessing.

    No it wouldn't.
    Yes it would. If God's omnipotence is his ability to do anything that he wants, then if he did what he did not want, what is against his character, it could only be by constraint. Thus he would not be all powerful.
    Last edited by Eli_Cash; July 11th, 2008 at 08:20 PM. Reason: errors

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eli_Cash View Post
    He was addressing non-believers there.
    Care to back that up?

    It shows that he knows things that aren't the case, or as you put it "that don't exist". Tyre and Sidon did not see Jesus' works, and yet he was competent to speak of how they would have reacted if they had. Unless you think he was just guessing.


    Because He knew Tyre and Sidon. They existed at one time. They were over.

    There is no reason to believe that God knows things that have no possibility in previous or current existence. I.e. things that have yet to happen [2009 Super Bowl].

    Yes it would. If God's omnipotence is his ability to do anything that he wants, then if he did what he did not want, what is against his character, it could only be by constraint. Thus he would not be all powerful.
    What about His attributes? Could He act against His attributes? For example, I do not have the ability to fly because I do not have the attributes that would allow me to fly. So I cannot fly. However, if I was all powerful, would I be able to fly without the attributes needed to fly?


  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Care to back that up?
    The passage is in Paul's sermon on Mars hill, which, if you will recall, was directed to a pagan gentile audience.



    Because He knew Tyre and Sidon. They existed at one time. They were over.
    But those works were never performed in them, and yet Jesus was still competent to say how they would have reacted.

    There is no reason to believe that God knows things that have no possibility in previous or current existence. I.e. things that have yet to happen [2009 Super Bowl].
    In the passage that I cited God apparently knew something that had not happened. In addition, there's the matter of Jesus foretelling Peter's denial of Him. Did he know this, or was he guessing?

    What about His attributes? Could He act against His attributes? For example, I do not have the ability to fly because I do not have the attributes that would allow me to fly. So I cannot fly. However, if I was all powerful, would I be able to fly without the attributes needed to fly?
    If you didn't have the attributes needed to fly how would you be all powerful?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eli_Cash View Post
    The passage is in Paul's sermon on Mars hill, which, if you will recall, was directed to a pagan gentile audience.
    That's not backing it up. Show me how you came to that conclusion. Verses?

    But those works were never performed in them, and yet Jesus was still competent to say how they would have reacted.
    So? That's irrelevant to the issue.

    In the passage that I cited God apparently knew something that had not happened. In addition, there's the matter of Jesus foretelling Peter's denial of Him. Did he know this, or was he guessing?
    God also stated that He never thought people would sacrifice children. And He also stated that He did not previously know the reaches of Abraham's faith, until Abraham obeyed Him.

    As for Peter's denial, He knew Peter's heart. He knew Peter was weak. He knew that if someone confronted Peter, Peter would deny.

    If you didn't have the attributes needed to fly how would you be all powerful?


    Can God travel through time?


  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    That's not backing it up. Show me how you came to that conclusion. Verses?
    Acts 17:22,23
    Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.


    So? That's irrelevant to the issue.
    He had knowledge of an event which never occurred. Considering that you (apparently) wanted verses that showed that God could know something that didn't exist, this is very relevant.

    God also stated that He never thought people would sacrifice children. And He also stated that He did not previously know the reaches of Abraham's faith, until Abraham obeyed Him.
    Verses?

    As for Peter's denial, He knew Peter's heart. He knew Peter was weak. He knew that if someone confronted Peter, Peter would deny.
    He knew? So does that mean that Peter's denial was a foregone conclusion?



    Can God travel through time?
    In what sense? I believe that God transcends time, so the very concept seems unintelligible to me. You'll have to be more specific.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eli_Cash View Post
    Acts 17:22,23
    Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
    Yet Paul was speaking of "us," in that particular instance, to the men of Athens.

    He had knowledge of an event which never occurred. Considering that you (apparently) wanted verses that showed that God could know something that didn't exist, this is very relevant.
    Wrong. This was knowledge of something that could have happened, and God, knowing what He knew, of Tyre and Sidon knew what would have happened. The issue is not the past, but the future.

    Verses?
    And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”
    -Genesis 22:12

    And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’
    -Jeremiah 32:35

    He knew? So does that mean that Peter's denial was a foregone conclusion?
    Actually, no. But Peter was weak, so there is no reason to assume he would have mustered the strength to proclaim the truth, instead of deny Christ like that.

    In what sense? I believe that God transcends time, so the very concept seems unintelligible to me. You'll have to be more specific.
    Time is an attribute of God. It exists because He exists. It is dictated by His very experience. So He cannot move back and forth between what was, now and what's to come, because only the now exists. The future has not happened, in any sense, and the past is over and gone. There's nothign to go to in either direction. So God cannot do anything that contradicts an attribute of His existence. In other words, He cannot stop being God.


  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Yet Paul was speaking of "us," in that particular instance, to the men of Athens.
    Acts 17:24-28 KJV
    God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

    Paul's whole argument here depends on the idea that those who should seek the Lord are the same which live move and have their breath in him, and are "all nations of men" and of whom it was said by their own poets that they are the offspring of God.

    Wrong. This was knowledge of something that could have happened, and God, knowing what He knew, of Tyre and Sidon knew what would have happened. The issue is not the past, but the future.
    It was neither past nor future, but something that never happened at all, which is why I quoted it, since you brought up the idea that God couldn't know things that didn't exist. In this passage it seems that he knows how they would have reacted, even though it never happened. How is this possible? Under your view he would only have been speculating.

    And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”
    -Genesis 22:12
    So you believe that God didn't know that Abraham feared him before that?

    And they built the high places of Baal which are in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come into My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.’
    -Jeremiah 32:35
    I don't think this is speaking of his knowledge but his will/desire/intention, contrasted with his explicit command. In other words, "I didn't tell you to do this, nor did I want you to."

    The word for mind here is "leb".

    3820
    leb
    labe

    a form of 'lebab' (3824); the heart; also used (figuratively) very widely for the feelings, the will and even the intellect; likewise for the centre of anything:--+ care for, comfortably, consent, X considered, courag(-eous), friend(-ly), ((broken-), (hard-), (merry-), (stiff-), (stout-), double) heart((-ed)), X heed, X I, kindly, midst, mind(-ed), X regard((-ed)), X themselves, X unawares, understanding, X well, willingly, wisdom.

    Actually, no. But Peter was weak, so there is no reason to assume he would have mustered the strength to proclaim the truth, instead of deny Christ like that.
    So Jesus was just making an educated guess? Or did he know what Peter would do? Please understand that I'm not concerned with how he knew, but with whether he knew, or was just guessing.

    Time is an attribute of God. It exists because He exists. It is dictated by His very experience. So He cannot move back and forth between what was, now and what's to come, because only the now exists. The future has not happened, in any sense, and the past is over and gone. There's nothign to go to in either direction. So God cannot do anything that contradicts an attribute of His existence. In other words, He cannot stop being God.
    So are you a presentist or an open futurist? I thought that most Open Theist held to an open future theory, in which the past is real but the future is not. If you hold to a presentist theory of time, then it would seem that statements about the past are just as speculative as statements about the present. On the other had, if you hold to an open future theory then it seems that you would conclude that God could travel into the past, since it exists. Unless you believe that there are problems with the notion of time travel other than the ontology of past and present, in which case your time travel objection to my view may not be sound.
    Last edited by Eli_Cash; July 18th, 2008 at 07:10 PM.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eli_Cash View Post
    Acts 17:24-28 KJV
    God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

    Paul's whole argument here depends on the idea that those who should seek the Lord are the same which live move and have their breath in him, and are "all nations of men" and of whom it was said by [b]their[b] own poets that they are the offspring of God.
    Still nothing that says He is in all places at all times, even if He doesn't want to be there.

    It was neither past nor future, but something that never happened at all, which is why I quoted it, since you brought up the idea that God couldn't know things that didn't exist. In this passage it seems that he knows how they would have reacted, even though it never happened. How is this possible? Under your view he would only have been speculating.
    He knew enough about them, because they did exist. Please do try to think before you type.

    So you believe that God didn't know that Abraham feared him before that?
    That's what I'm saying. Because Abraham didn't even know how devoted he was to God. And God didn't want to just peek into Abe's heart. He wanted Abe to show how devoted he was.

    I don't think this is speaking of his knowledge but his will/desire/intention, contrasted with his explicit command. In other words, "I didn't tell you to do this, nor did I want you to."

    The word for mind here is "leb".

    3820
    leb
    labe

    a form of 'lebab' (3824); the heart; also used (figuratively) very widely for the feelings, the will and even the intellect; likewise for the centre of anything:--+ care for, comfortably, consent, X considered, courag(-eous), friend(-ly), ((broken-), (hard-), (merry-), (stiff-), (stout-), double) heart((-ed)), X heed, X I, kindly, midst, mind(-ed), X regard((-ed)), X themselves, X unawares, understanding, X well, willingly, wisdom.
    And? He never thought anyone would do such a thing, period.

    So Jesus was just making an educated guess? Or did he know what Peter would do? Please understand that I'm not concerned with how he knew, but with whether he knew, or was just guessing.
    He knew that if confronted, Peter would deny. What of it?

    So are you a presentist or an open futurist? I thought that most Open Theist held to an open future theory, in which the past is real but the future is not. If you hold to a presentist theory of time, then it would seem that statements about the past are just as speculative as statements about the present. On the other had, if you hold to an open future theory then it seems that you would conclude that God could travel into the past, since it exists. Unless you believe that there are problems with the notion of time travel other than the ontology of past and present, in which case your time travel objection to my view may not be sound.
    Are you really that stupid? You can't travel to something that isn't there. It's over, it's gone, it no longer exists. But it did happen.


  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post
    Still nothing that says He is in all places at all times, even if He doesn't want to be there.
    Where would he not want to be?

    He knew enough about them, because they did exist. Please do try to think before you type.
    Yes, Tyre and Sidon did exist, but their repentance never occurred. Nevertheless, Jesus apparently knew for a fact that it would have.


    That's what I'm saying. Because Abraham didn't even know how devoted he was to God. And God didn't want to just peek into Abe's heart. He wanted Abe to show how devoted he was.
    Then why didn't he let him go through with it?

    And? He never thought anyone would do such a thing, period.
    People did that kind of stuff all the time, and I'm pretty sure that God knew about it.


    He knew that if confronted, Peter would deny. What of it?
    1. He also knew that Peter would be confronted three times, something that wasn't dependent on Peter's heart.

    2. If he knew that Peter would deny him, then was Peter's action free?

    Are you really that stupid? You can't travel to something that isn't there. It's over, it's gone, it no longer exists. But it did happen.
    I still don't know what your view is. Are you a presentist? Are you an open futurist? A presentist believes that only the present exists, and the past and future are merely useful fictions. An open futurist believes that the past exists, but the future does not. If you believe that the past exists, then your own position is susceptible to the same time-travel criticisms that you seem to be directing at mine. If you don't believe that the past exists then you have an unorthodox position for the Open View, and you also have a challenge of explaining what is meant by such past statements as "Jesus was crucified and raised from the dead".

    But to answer your original question, I don't think that the statement "God can travel through time" is even intelligible, so no, I don't think that God can do it.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eli_Cash View Post
    Where would he not want to be?




    Hell. The Lake of Fire. A toilet.

    Yes, Tyre and Sidon did exist, but their repentance never occurred. Nevertheless, Jesus apparently knew for a fact that it would have.
    You're just dumb.

    Then why didn't he let him go through with it?
    Are you really that stupid? You're actually asking why God stopped Abraham from killing Isaac?

    :squint:

    People did that kind of stuff all the time, and I'm pretty sure that God knew about it.
    After the first time it happened, yes. But He never expected them to do it before the first time someone did it. He says so.

    1. He also knew that Peter would be confronted three times, something that wasn't dependent on Peter's heart.
    Why did He know that?

    Because He made it happen!

    2. If he knew that Peter would deny him, then was Peter's action free?
    God knows that if I am given the choice between vanilla and chocolate ice cream, I will choose chocolate. Because He knows me that well. That doesn't mean I am not free to choose vanilla. But I won't, because I don't want to. What of it?

    I still don't know what your view is. Are you a presentist? Are you an open futurist? A presentist believes that only the present exists, and the past and future are merely useful fictions. An open futurist believes that the past exists, but the future does not. If you believe that the past exists, then your own position is susceptible to the same time-travel criticisms that you seem to be directing at mine. If you don't believe that the past exists then you have an unorthodox position for the Open View, and you also have a challenge of explaining what is meant by such past statements as "Jesus was crucified and raised from the dead".
    "Useful fictions?" The past is not fiction. It actually happened.

    But, as I've already told you, the past is over, and therefore NO LONGER EXISTS.

    As for the rest of this paragraph, it's complete idiocy.

    But to answer your original question, I don't think that the statement "God can travel through time" is even intelligible, so no, I don't think that God can do it.
    Well, that's a start.

    Now, why did God bring the animals before Adam?


  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post




    Hell. The Lake of Fire. A toilet.
    Psalm 139:7-12 KJV
    Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
    (emphasis mine)

    You're just dumb.
    Did he know, or didn't he? If he knew what they would do, then he knew about an event that never happened.

    Are you really that stupid? You're actually asking why God stopped Abraham from killing Isaac?


    :squint:
    Yes I'm asking that. So why did he stop Abraham?

    It should also be pointed out that in this passage it isn't God in his transcendence, saying "now I know". It's the Angel of the Lord. So it's really a moot point no matter how you answer. There's nothing there to indicate that God didn't know what Abraham would do.

    After the first time it happened, yes. But He never expected them to do it before the first time someone did it. He says so.
    The passage that you quoted wasn't the first time that people had performed human sacrifices. Also, God explicitly forbids the practice in Leviticus, so he clearly knew about it before this instance.

    Leviticus 18:21 KJV
    And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.

    Why did He know that?

    Because He made it happen!
    How did he make it happen? Did he control the actions of the people who confronted Peter?

    God knows that if I am given the choice between vanilla and chocolate ice cream, I will choose chocolate. Because He knows me that well. That doesn't mean I am not free to choose vanilla. But I won't, because I don't want to. What of it?
    So then God's determinate foreknowledge doesn't conflict with your freedom. Right?

    "Useful fictions?" The past is not fiction. It actually happened.

    But, as I've already told you, the past is over, and therefore NO LONGER EXISTS.
    No longer exists in what sense? Simpliciter? Tensed? If it's the former then it seems to imply that it never "happened" in any meaningful sense, since the past tense would be unreal. If the latter then it really isn't any different from a tenseless theory of time like what I hold. So if time travel is problem for me, then it is a problem for you too.

    As for the rest of this paragraph, it's complete idiocy.
    Why don't you just answer my question, or do you not understand it?

    Are you a presentist?

    Are you an open-futurist?

    Do you have a different theory of time? If so please explain it.

    Well, that's a start.

    Now, why did God bring the animals before Adam?
    If you won't answer my questions, why should I answer yours?
    Last edited by Eli_Cash; July 18th, 2008 at 07:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eli_Cash View Post
    Psalm 139:7-12 KJV
    Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
    (emphasis mine)
    Wrong Hell.

    Did he know, or didn't he? If he knew what they would do, then he knew about an event that never happened.
    He knew what would have happened, because He knew the people He was speaking of. Because they had existed. He cannot say if the people of Wonderland would act a certain way if He performed miracles there. And that is my point.

    Yes I'm asking that. So why did he stop Abraham?
    Because He had the information He needed. You're really stupid.

    It should also be pointed out that in this passage it isn't God in his transcendence, saying "now I know". It's the Angel of the Lord. So it's really a moot point no matter how you answer. There's nothing there to indicate that God didn't know what Abraham would do.
    And further proof of your stupidity.

    The Angel was quoting God, you moron. God told the angel what to say. He told the angel to tell Abraham that He now knew.

    The passage that you quoted wasn't the first time that people had performed human sacrifices. Also, God explicitly forbids the practice in Leviticus, so he clearly knew about it before this instance.
    Prove it.

    Leviticus 18:21 KJV
    And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
    How convinced are you that Leviticus was completed before God said this?

    How did he make it happen? Did he control the actions of the people who confronted Peter?
    All He really had to do was remind these people that Peter was a disciple of Jesus. And when three people had asked, He was done.

    So then God's determinate foreknowledge doesn't conflict with your freedom. Right?
    This foreknowledge is not determinate.

    It also must be noted that this does not mean that God knows specifically when I will have that choice.

    No longer exists in what sense? Simpliciter? Tensed? If it's the former then it seems to imply that it never "happened" in any meaningful sense, since the past tense would be unreal. If the latter then it really isn't any different from a tenseless theory of time like what I hold. So if time travel is problem for me, then it is a problem for you too.
    Time travel does not, and will not ever, exist. It is an impossibility due to the non-existence of any time other than the present.

    And I don't know the first word. This is the first time I have ever heard/seen it.

    Why don't you just answer my question, or do you not understand it?

    Are you a presentist?

    Are you an open-futurist?

    Do you have a different theory of time? If so please explain it.
    I don't really see how I have not explained myself.

    The future is open. It is not set in stone. The past is not open. It cannot be changed. It has already happened. It is set in stone.

    If you won't answer my questions, why should I answer yours?
    Have I sufficiently answered your question? If so, please answer mine.


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