Salvation Through Mary?

keypurr · Jan 17, 2017

Jerry Shugart said:
In what way do you say that the dead in Christ are "raised first"?

In those verses it says that the Lord will bring bring those who are already physically dead with Him from heaven (v.14). Then after that He will descend from heaven and the dead shall be resurrected first (v.16) and then the saints who are alive will meet Him in the air.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Besides that, here we can see that those who have been killed cry with a loud voice:

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? " (Rev.6:9-10).

Revelations is a symbolic book, I see no other evidence of saints in heaven when Jesus returns for the first raising in scripture. I am open to learn if you have anything friend.

clefty · Jan 17, 2017

jsanford108 said:
I never claimed angels were almighty. They are definitely in heaven with the Almighty.

How do you know Mary is asleep? Provide evidence that you know, with reason and rational, that she is asleep. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that she is asleep. Nowhere does it say that we all are "asleep" once we pass from this world.

Here's more:

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2).

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed" (1 Corinthians 15:51).

"Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, 'Lord, do not charge them with this sin.' And when he had said this, he fell asleep" (Acts 7:60).

To sleep but not to dream...

dead "know not anything" (Eccl. 9:5),

they "do not praise the Lord" (Psalm 115:17),

thoughts have perished (Psalm 146:4)

Starting to think there are those that wish to agree with Satan's initial lie..."You will not surely die..."

marhig · Jan 18, 2017

jsanford108 said:
Dear Marhig,
You bring up one of the most interesting points and arguments (in my opinion). The claim that Mary is not the Mother of God. I obviously agree that she is the Mother of Christ. But if she is the Mother of Christ, she is the Mother of God. How can this be so, right? She was not created before God, since God is eternal.

Allow me, if you will, to ask you a couple of questions. And feel free to answer as bluntly as you deem necessary.

1.)Is Christ God?
2.)Was Christ always God?
3.)Is Christ fully God and fully Man?

1. No he isn't
2. No, he has always been the son of God
3. No, Jesus Christ was fully man, with a divine nature, he totally denied his flesh, living not by his will, but by the will of God and having the full power and strength of the holy spirit. Thus being in the express image of God. Making him Emanuel, God with us.

And God has exalted him to his right hand.

If he was God then God would have no need to exalt him, and he wouldn't have called God, his God which he did. And even Paul said that the head of Christ is God.

jsanford108 said:
Dear Marhig,
You bring up one of the most interesting points and arguments (in my opinion). The claim that Mary is not the Mother of God. I obviously agree that she is the Mother of Christ. But if she is the Mother of Christ, she is the Mother of God. How can this be so, right? She was not created before God, since God is eternal.

Allow me, if you will, to ask you a couple of questions. And feel free to answer as bluntly as you deem necessary.

1.)Is Christ God?
2.)Was Christ always God?
3.)Is Christ fully God and fully Man?

Jerry Shugart · Jan 18, 2017

keypurr said:
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

What meaning do you place on the words "shall rise first"?

keypurr said:
Revelations is a symbolic book, I see no other evidence of saints in heaven when Jesus returns for the first raising in scripture. I am open to learn if you have anything friend.

You say that the dead know nothing but that is contradicted by what is said here:

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? " (Rev.6:9-10).

God's Truth · Jan 18, 2017

Jerry Shugart said:
The verse from Hebrews is speaking about when the believers will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

That is at the resurrection the great white throne judgement.

Jerry Shugart said:
That is different from the time when He will return to the earth.

Jesus is coming back to judge the living and the dead.

Jerry Shugart said:
Do you not believe that during the earthly Kingdom of Christ that there will be people who will be saved from their sins?

Jesus is reigning now and people are being saved now.

See Psalm 8:6You made them rulers over the works of your hands; you put everything under their feet:

1 Corinthians 15:27For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

Ephesians 1:22And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,,

Hebrews 2:8 YOU HAVE PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET." For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.

2 Timothy 1:10but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

Matthew 28:18
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Philippians 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,

Ephesians 1:21
far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.

Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Hebrews 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

God's Truth · Jan 18, 2017

keypurr said:
I know it is scripture but I do not see it the way you do. What saints will be in heaven before he comes to raise the saints on earth?

I question all my friend. I have no faith in the churches.

Sent from my A622GL using TheologyOnline mobile app

I am speaking what the scriptures say.

clefty · Jan 18, 2017

God's Truth said:
I am speaking what the scriptures say.

Good thing to do...you know what it doesn't say? The testimony of 9+ people who were specifically raised from the dead...not one passage about what waits for us after we die...NOTHING

EliYah and Elisha both raised boys from the dead...nothing there from either of them...

A man was resurrected when dumped on Elisha's bones...nothing from him...

Peter and Paul both brought back individuals from the dead...nothing there from either...imagine the power of their testimony "And I saw up in heaven Peter at the gate..." Oh wait nevermind...

Yahushua Himself raised 3 from the dead plus many at His own resurrection...NOTHING you would think that He would pass them the microphone to tell the tales of life in heaven...what power and testimony to the glory and power of Him who was sent...but NOTHING

Or maybe there is not much to tell...

But yes please keep to speaking from what the scriptures say...

keypurr · Jan 18, 2017

Jerry Shugart said:
What meaning do you place on the words "shall rise first"?

You say that the dead know nothing but that is contradicted by what is said here:

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? " (Rev.6:9-10).

The verse is quite clear Jerry.
The saints in the grave will rise before the saints that are alive.

Sent from my A622GL using TheologyOnline mobile app

Jerry Shugart · Jan 18, 2017

keypurr said:
The verse is quite clear Jerry.
The saints in the grave will rise before the saints that are alive.

Do you mean that they will rise from the grave or do you mean they will be raised from the dead?

Also you say that the dead know nothing but that is contradicted by what is said here:

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? " (Rev.6:9-10).

If these souls, who are described as the souls who were slained, know nothing then how is it possible that they can ask, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

God's Truth · Jan 18, 2017

clefty said:
Good thing to do...you know what it doesn't say? The testimony of 9+ people who were specifically raised from the dead...not one passage about what waits for us after we die...NOTHING

Some things are revealed to some people and not others.

clefty said:
EliYah and Elisha both raised boys from the dead...nothing there from either of them...

A man was resurrected when dumped on Elisha's bones...nothing from him...

Peter and Paul both brought back individuals from the dead...nothing there from either...imagine the power of their testimony "And I saw up in heaven Peter at the gate..." Oh wait nevermind...

Yahushua Himself raised 3 from the dead plus many at His own resurrection...NOTHING you would think that He would pass them the microphone to tell the tales of life in heaven...what power and testimony to the glory and power of Him who was sent...but NOTHING

Or maybe there is not much to tell...

But yes please keep to speaking from what the scriptures say...

Why would we need to hear their stories as if we doubted?

2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know---God knows.

Paul is wondering if he was in or out of his body, think about that for awhile.

clefty · Jan 19, 2017

God's Truth said:
Some things are revealed to some people and not others.

I choose to base my belief on things revealed, my faith in One who revealed it, even demonstrating it.

Why would we need to hear their stories as if we doubted?

oh I don't doubt...I would hear their stories as a believer...however there are no stories

most of what is taught in scripture is for the believers as well...imagine the comfort of being confirmed...I am comforted as there are no stories of what lies beyond the grave...just teaching and by demonstration...as there remains no stories

2 Corinthians 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know---God knows.

Paul is wondering if he was in or out of his body, think about that for awhile.

That Paul was disoriented while in a vision is no basis for me to disregard what is taught in scripture and demonstrated...

God's Truth · Jan 19, 2017

clefty said:
I choose to base my belief on things revealed, my faith in One who revealed it, even demonstrating it.

Then know that you cannot speak of Jesus unless you obey Jesus, because that is to whom he reveals himself. So if you want knowledge for yourself instead of worthless opinions, then you have to obey him then come back and talk about him.

clefty said:
oh I don't doubt...I would hear their stories as a believer...however there are no stories

Seek and you will find.
Those who obey Jesus find.

clefty said:
most of what is taught in scripture is for the believers as well...imagine the comfort of being confirmed...I am comforted as there are no stories of what lies beyond the grave...just teaching and by demonstration...as there remains no stories

clefty said:
That Paul was disoriented while in a vision is no basis for me to disregard what is taught in scripture and demonstrated...

Paul would never have contemplated if whether or not he was in the body or out of it if it were not possible. Now if you want truth find out for yourself by obeying Jesus, if you do not want worthless opinions.

clefty · Jan 19, 2017

God's Truth said:
Then know that you cannot speak of Jesus unless you obey Jesus, because that is to whom he reveals himself. So if you want knowledge for yourself instead of worthless opinions, then you have to obey him then come back and talk about him.

Seek and you will find.
Those who obey Jesus find.

Paul would never have contemplated if whether or not he was in the body or out of it if it were not possible. Now if you want truth find out for yourself by obeying Jesus, if you do not want worthless opinions.

It is your opinion that when He said Lazarus was asleep He was NOT revealing to those obedient what death is...

It remains your opinion that later revelation was given which counters previous revelation...

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

And is for the obedient and disobedient alike...there is no adding to it...no secret later revelations...

Paul never claimed he was dead...

Those who obey Jesus find what does NOT counter what He previously revealed...

They do not find error or distortions nor create them...to fit what they wish to see

God's Truth · Jan 19, 2017

clefty said:
It is your opinion that when He said Lazarus was asleep He was NOT revealing to those obedient what death is...

It remains your opinion that later revelation was given which counters previous revelation...

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

And is for the obedient and disobedient alike...there is no adding to it...no secret later revelations...

Paul never claimed he was dead...

What are you talking about? What do you claim I said? What is this about Lazarus?

clefty · Jan 19, 2017

God's Truth said:
What are you talking about? What do you claim I said? What is this about Lazarus?

Read it for yourself:

John 11

And then ask yourself why would He bring Lazarus back from paradise? Or why did He let him die and spend days in hell?

Maybe when He said Lazarus was asleep He meant to reveal something to His obedient friends and followers...

Namely that the dead know nothing...and are asleep in a sleep without dreams...or visions to come back to tell others the greater understandings given in those visions...

God's Truth · Jan 19, 2017

clefty said:
Read it for yourself:

John 11

And then ask yourself why would He bring Lazarus back from paradise? Or why did He let him die and spend days in hell?

Maybe when He said Lazarus was asleep He meant to reveal something to His obedient friends and followers...

Namely that the dead know nothing...and are asleep in a sleep without dreams...or visions to come back to tell others the greater understandings given in those visions...

Do you know the parable of Lazarus?

clefty · Jan 19, 2017

God's Truth said:
Do you know the parable of Lazarus?

Oh my...lol

So the man begging for water from Abraham across a chasm is real but the story of Lazarus is a parable...

Lol...

Does exmplain how certain deceptions can continue and are so deeply entrenched...

Sigh...

Jerry Shugart · Jan 19, 2017

clefty said:
Maybe when He said Lazarus was asleep He meant to reveal something to His obedient friends and followers...

Namely that the dead know nothing...and are asleep in a sleep without dreams...or visions to come back to tell others the greater understandings given in those visions...

Are you saying that the dead know nothing? That idea is contradicted by what is said here:

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? " (Rev.6:9-10).

If these souls, who are described as the souls who were slained, know nothing then how is it possible that they can ask, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

clefty · Jan 19, 2017

Jerry Shugart said:
Are you saying that the dead know nothing? That idea is contradicted by what is said here:

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? " (Rev.6:9-10).

If these souls, who are described as the souls who were slained, know nothing then how is it possible that they can ask, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

If they are souls indeed without physical bodies how could they wear these?

Verse 11 "Then a white robe was given to each of them;and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed."

If they were physical bodies how many could fit under the altar? Or how big was the altar?

I fear what is meant as a metaphor or symbolically to teach and bring understanding is too often considered literal...are the horses literal in the first four seals?

Do they need to eat? have their stalls cleaned out? How about the dragon...is it llteral...the woman?

Jerry Shugart · Jan 19, 2017

clefty said:
I fear what is meant as a metaphor or symbolically to teach and bring understanding is too often considered literal...are the horses literal in the first four seals?

If what is revealed in those verses are not to be taken literally then they must have another meaning.

How do you interpret the passage?

Thanks!

Salvation Through Mary?

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