The Timelessness of God

Clete

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Forget math...

Common sense. Infinite denotes No beginning and no end.
How do you propose I "forget math" if you bring up infinity in the very next sentence?

It's just this sort of sloppy thinking that allows one to be convinced to solve paradoxes with contradictions!

I submit that common sense dictates that time and infinite are the real contradictions.
I'm not interested in personal opinions. Prove it.

You won't be able to. (Not because you're stupid or anything but simply because it can't be proven.)

No math required. Either God dwells outside time, though we exist inside God... or we start to go into a loop of impossible reasoning that implodes with questions a child could ask.
This isn't true.

I recommend reading through the thread I linked too before. It goes into this whole topic is some considerable detail.

Suffice it to say for now that if you insist on sticking with this line of reasoning, you'll have to join Zeno and believe that your entire existence is an illusion which he believed because Achilles could never have caught a rabbit. It really is essentially the same argument you are making.

Colossians 1:15-17
God was "before all things", it says in verse 17.

What does "before" mean?

How does "before" have meaning outside of duration and sequence?

Here's something to watch for. No conversation about existence outside of time can take place without contradicting yourself. There is no rational way to even discuss it. When this is true of any other topic it is readily used as good reason to reject the idea as false. The most common reason people cling to ideas in spite of sound reason is a blind belief in their doctrine. When you hold your doctrine above sound reason, nothing is out of bounds and no truth claim can be falsified. If doctrine trumps reason then maybe David Koresh was the second coming of Christ after all.

#I hope and pray that debating [MENTION=4980]DFT_Dave[/MENTION] hasn't impaired certain aspects of your logic train.
On the contrary! I'm actually surprised at the mental effort required to formulate and present arguments for a spherical Earth. They aren't as intuitive as you might expect. I've enjoyed that thread quite a lot.

So far, this one hasn't been bad either!

Resting in Him,
Clete
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Greetings Clete,

Earlier I said:

In fact, we cannot have a definite knowledge of very specific things which will happen in the future, such as knowing who will believe the gospel and who will not.

This is your answer:

This is an unsubstantiated claim. You have made no attempt to establish this claim. Even if it is true (which it may well be), the fact that we cannot says nothing about what God can or cannot do.

If my idea is in error then tell me when some man or woman knew who in the future would believe and be saved. As far as we know, a person might not even be alive tomorrow so no one on the earth can know whether or not that person will believe in the future.

Further, what you'll never be able to establish is that God's knowledge or lack thereof has anything to do with existing outside of time.

Then please tell me how this happened unless the LORD exists outside of time?:

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48).​

Notice that the LORD ordained or appoined them to eternal life before they believed. Therefore, the LORD had to foreknow who would believe.

Let us look at this verse:

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love"
(Eph.1:4).​

How could the LORD have chosen some to be saved before the foundation of the world unless He had a foreknowledge of exactly who would believe?

Thanks!
 
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quip

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Your allowance for my extrapolation of my last answer is simply addition to your previous question. Thus...

Shoot

Assertions such as "outside of time" or " creation from nothing" (sui generis) hold no rational nor experiential viability ....meaning we cannot experience nor understand such concepts
Thus how may a believer reconcile such theological notions to the ideation of an mundanely interceding god?
 

JudgeRightly

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God was "before all things", it says in verse 17.

What does "before" mean?

How does "before" have meaning outside of duration and sequence?

Here's something to watch for. No conversation about existence outside of time can take place without contradicting yourself. There is no rational way to even discuss it. When this is true of any other topic it is readily used as good reason to reject the idea as false. The most common reason people cling to ideas in spite of sound reason is a blind belief in their doctrine. When you hold your doctrine above sound reason, nothing is out of bounds and no truth claim can be falsified. If doctrine trumps reason then maybe David Koresh was the second coming of Christ after all.

This is what I've been trying to explain to Right Divider. Time cannot have been created, because when something is 'created,' it goes from a state of non-existence, to existence, which is itself a sequence, a "before" and "after." You cannot have a 'sequence' without time.

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Tambora

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That was exactly what I was saying.

It's NOT that God no longer knows.
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Right Divider

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You cannot show me a verse that indicates that God is outside of time, that He is atemporal, yet I can show you multiple verses throughout the Bible that God has a past, is in the present, and is looking forward to the future.
And those references are always related to God with and through His creation. No big surprise there.

You're right, it is conjecture. But it's based on the idea that we are at the center of His attention, that He is interested in what we do.
Be careful not to be anthropocentric.
 

JudgeRightly

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Tambora

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No one can go to a place that does not exist, including God.

It is irrational to suggest otherwise.



I agree.

And it also seems to contradict what they are claiming in the first place.
If all of creation is constrained by time, ..... then there is no way there could be a future yet because all that was created HAS TO go in sequence.
In other words the future has not happened EVER in any way shape or form in the created universe because the created universe is restricted by time to and MUST go in sequence.
And that means that what we will do in the future has NEVER taken place.
 

Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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Assertions such as "outside of time" or " creation from nothing" (sui generis) hold no rational nor experiential viability ....meaning we cannot experience nor understand such concepts
Thus how may a believer reconcile such theological notions to the ideation of an mundanely interceding god?

I am gathering that the yes and no structure is something you want to step out of and perhaps return to expressive dialogue. I am willing. I prefer the yes and no structure because it leaves no wiggle room for misunderstanding; however it does leave much to be answered.

So...

I will requote you and proceed.

Assertions such as "outside of time"
Various 'rational' fields of science disagree that time is what we perceive it to be.

or " creation from nothing" (sui generis)
I have never once asserted that something came from nothing. In fact, I assert that the tangible everything came from the "Intangible" "Everything". Thus again... you are stigmatizing your assertions without actual knowledge of my understanding.

hold no rational nor experiential viability ....meaning we cannot experience nor understand such concepts
You have entered experience into the rational matter of things, thus experience is now valid. Understanding is all around us. Consider what I could express with simple observation. All things are tied to all things in observation. The very smallest observation of life around us reveals hierarchy in some form or fashion that keeps pointing to a perpetual plain of exsistance and understanding that expands outwards.

Thus how may a believer reconcile such theological notions to the ideation of an mundanely interceding god?
Theology is fictional assumptions of mankind. However, once one leaves the train station of pre-conception and begins to search, one is immediately aware that unseen influences shape the world around us more deeply than what is tangibly observable.

I choose to proceed with a question that compliments this. Which is stronger? Love or Brute force?
 

Right Divider

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I'm constantly surprised by what comes out of believers' mouths.

Tell me, have you ever created something from nothing?

How do you even begin? :idunno:
Why are you telling me about a God that you do not even think exists?

No, I have not. I'm not God.

quip logic: Since I, quip, cannot understand it... it cannot be true.
 

Right Divider

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I'm thinking that since man was made in the image of GOD, and GOD appeared as a man to Abe, and GOD became a man and dwelt among us, ...... then I think 'manlike' would be one of the top ways we should visualize GOD.
But that's just me.
We must always remember that God condescends to man's level only to communicate with man and interact with man.

I think that to think that God is 'manlike' is very dangerous and possibly blasphemous.
 

Nang

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We must always remember that God condescends to man's level only to communicate with man and interact with man.

I think that to think that God is 'manlike' is very dangerous and possibly blasphemous.

Good Grief . . .

God incarnated as Man.
 
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