Creation vs. Evolution II

gcthomas

New member
I'm quite sure you know your argument is silly. Do you even know what quote mining is?*

You don't need to quote an entire book...an entire article etc. But, if you quote someone, you need to quote them in context. I invited you to quote more of the article..... or even quote from Moran himself if you think it changes anything. He somehow seems to think there must be a 3rd way, as he rejects Darwinism and creationism.*

He understands TOE... but rejects that random mutations and natural selection have creative capabilities demanded by Darwinism.

You said that you posted nearly all of the article, which was clearly a lie. It want remotely true, but even when your attention is drawn to it you cling on to your attempts to move the attention seat instead of apologising.

You lied, and you don't care. Good luck with your hoped-for salvation. My moral code rejects your sorry sort of behaviour. You ought to join us.
 

6days

New member
gcthomas said:
You said that you posted nearly all of the article, which was clearly a lie.
You are right...I was wrong. I had said I posted most of the article. I should have referred back as i had only posted the last part of theartocle. Apologies...*


What I did say about the article is correct though. The article discusses secular biologists who reject Darwinian explanations...mutations and natural selection don't / can't create our eye (the example in the article)
 

Jonahdog

BANNED
Banned
I invited you to post all.... or any part of the article you want to discuss.

I used that article to show even some secular biologists and microbiologists disagree with ToE / Darwinism.*

Does "disagree" mean therefore god? What exactly do you take "disagree" to mean? Please be specific.
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Dear All,

What, I'm gone two days, and you're messing with 6days answers. When would you expect him to read all articles that you always refer to. He is one, sometimes two {me and Everready}. You all are basically ganging up on one individual while you 3 or 4 drivel about quoting errantly. When would you expect 6days to find even more time to quote on an entire long article?? You dish 'em out and expect him to be prepared for everyone's whim. Shame on you all!! You 3-4 Darwinists, read all kinds of things, and then you send it all to one lone creationist to deal with it all. C'mon! How exceptionally nice are you all?

When I say you 3-4, I mean jose fly, gcthomas, jonahdog, redfern, and a number of others who pop in besides. What do you expect from 6days? I can tell you. You all are trying to cause 6days to try out being an evolutionist, or neo-Darwinist?? I have to say, I have stomped on you twice in my history here, but it gets erased every time by someone. It dissolves atheists and Darwinists. Anyway, us changing our views of following God will affect the determination of whether we go to Heaven or hell. We're not going to join you there for no reason whatsoever. And that is not the main reason we are creationists in the first place.

We actually have a STRONG LOVE for Our God, and Jesus, and the Holy Ghost!! Do you actually think that we would part with our beliefs to join evolutionists and atheists. Don't hold your breath for a second. It will never happen, which is probably the same thing with you all. But, sometime soon, I'm going to weave in here something that you will hope I don't. It will probably cause you all to quit posting here, but I'd really rather you Choose Jesus and God first, and then, the Holy Ghost. See what happens.

I am not just quoting one instance here. And you won't like my words. Sure you say, bring them on, but you will regret it a thousand, thousandfold!! Adieu to you all. I hold my peace. You 3 gang up 1 named 6days. I appreciate all that you bring to this thread, but not always. You are picking over an article! What has this site become?? Okay, I'm going to hit the bed. Goodnight!!

Much Love For You All, Irregardless Of Your Views, You Know!!

Michael
 
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redfern

Active member
So.... when you start to assemble and arrange bones in patterns to fit your beliefs, it isn’t very convincing.

When you speak of the "beliefs" that scientists have, it carries the impression that by "beliefs" you mean ideas with little evidence to back them. It sounds like you think paleontologists find a couple of fossils that are similar, differing in maybe just a few bones, and then declare that they must therefore have a close ancestral relationship.

Besides "this one looks like a slight modification of that one", what other information about the fossils would be important? In other words, what other observable or measurable data might a paleontologist want to consider that would lend credence to (or conflict with) the possibility that two fossils are closely related?

Also even in living creatures, mistakes have been made classifying things.

So? Some mathematicians have made errors in theorems they propose, and so we can conclude that mathematics is nonsense? Newton was wrong about some of his ideas about physics, so physics in bunk? Is that kinda what you are saying – that mistakes made in a field of study falsify the field?

Even with the arranged patterns, paleontologists often re-shuffle the patterns.

Which is exactly what I would expect to happen when working with incomplete and sparse data. Instead of an unrealistic expectation that no errors be permitted, how about looking to see what rationale the minor adjustments were predicated on, and seeing if the resulting pattern is a better fit for the data?
 

6days

New member
redfern said:
When you speak of the "beliefs" that scientists have, it carries the impression that by "beliefs" you mean ideas with little evidence to back them.

Both evolutionists and creationists have beliefs. Both groups have the exact same data / evidence. They have different interpretations based on their beliefs.*

redfern said:
It sounds like you think paleontologists find a couple of fossils that are similar, differing in maybe just a few bones, and then declare that they must therefore have a close ancestral relationship.
It's usually a little more involved than that, but not always. *And, other times its the exact opposite. Paleontogists don't recieve much recognition for uncovering yet another previously discovered fossils. However, they garner reputation and often funding dollars if they claim they have discovered something new...sometbing they claim is 'important and teansitional'. (even though it bears strong resemblance to previous discoveries)

redfern said:
Besides "this one looks like a slight modification of that one", what other information about the fossils would be important?
Male / female, *correct assembly of bone, appearance of the fleshed out individual, which similar fossils were same species (mating capability).*
redfern said:
6days said:
Also even in living creatures, mistakes have been made classifying things.

So? Some mathematicians (mistakes).... Newton was wrong....(etc)
Physics and math are not a historical science. Determining species is sometimes an imprecise science with live animals... That much more imprecise and inaccurate when examing old bones.

redfern said:
Which is exactly what I would expect to happen when working with incomplete and sparse data. Instead of an unrealistic expectation that no errors be permitted, how about looking to see what rationale the minor adjustments were predicated on, and seeing if the resulting pattern is a better fit for the data?
Sure.... Are you willing to consider that the data fits a super natural creation? *


Almost all college graduates exit college 100% committed to evolutionism. They have paid tens of thousands of dollars along with several years of their life being indoctrinated into a single belief system. It isn't easy after that to say 'I understand the material taught for which I recieved my degree...But I don't believe it'. Yet, it would seem tens of thousands of scientists have rejected the common ancestry belief system.*
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Both evolutionists and creationists have beliefs. Both groups have the exact same data / evidence. They have different interpretations based on their beliefs.*

It's usually a little more involved than that, but not always. *And, other times its the exact opposite. Paleontogists don't recieve much recognition for uncovering yet another previously discovered fossils. However, they garner reputation and often funding dollars if they claim they have discovered something new...sometbing they claim is 'important and teansitional'. (even though it bears strong resemblance to previous discoveries)

Male / female, *correct assembly of bone, appearance of the fleshed out individual, which similar fossils were same species (mating capability).*Physics and math are not a historical science. Determining species is sometimes an imprecise science with live animals... That much more imprecise and inaccurate when examing old bones.

Sure.... Are you willing to consider that the data fits a super natural creation? *


Almost all college graduates exit college 100% committed to evolutionism. They have paid tens of thousands of dollars along with several years of their life being indoctrinated into a single belief system. It isn't easy after that to say 'I understand the material taught for which I received my degree...But I don't believe it'. Yet, it would seem tens of thousands of scientists have rejected the common ancestry belief system.*


Dear 6days,

Thanks for the wonderful job you're doing posting here. It sure gets to be tough sometimes. I'm sorry that I don't post more often, but I'm trying. I've got a couple of other things going on, so I'm doing my best. I spend 2-4 hours here on TOL, sometimes more. In addition to my own website and my Facebook account. I've got a Vistaprint website also. I get sore just sitting down for too long! It could be that I won't be able to get on as often either. The site belongs to all of you who post in it. No one is better than the other, I think. No one is going to be banned, so don't fret. Silent Hunter was just a pain you know where, and Hedshaker too! I'm glad they were dropped from this thread. Such a wonderful job that the moderator Sherman did. I can't thank her enough!!

Well, you all, I do love every one of you on this thread, and I still do love Silent Hunter and Hedshaker. I just don't love to talk with them as much. Our God is Love, and there's a lot of it in me. That's how it goes. You're all my brethren, but some go this way and some go that way. Okay, well I will get going for now!!

The Lord God Be With Each Of You As You Make Your Decisions In Life,

Michael
 

redfern

Active member
Both evolutionists and creationists have beliefs. Both groups have the exact same data / evidence. They have different interpretations based on their beliefs.

But there is one big difference. Evolutionists are scientists, which means they know “their beliefs” are secondary to what nature says. So when two evolutionists find they disagree on the evidence, they both know the next step is to look for still other relevant data that will confirm just which of the differing beliefs is the correct one.

Paleontologists don't receive much recognition for uncovering yet another previously discovered fossil. However, they garner reputation and often funding dollars if they claim they have discovered something new...something they claim is 'important and teansitional'. (even though it bears strong resemblance to previous discoveries)

I note the clear implication that paleontologists are fundamentally dishonest and willing to falsify their data in order to garner recognition and funding. I am not nearly as inclined to impugn the integrity of scientists as you seem to be. On those rare occasions when dishonesty has been uncovered in a scientist’s work, then their value as a member of the scientific community is pretty much destroyed.

Most scientists are keenly aware that others will follow behind them, and those successors will nominally assume the correctness of the data they are given to start with. Mother Nature has no tolerance for error, and research built on a false foundation will usually be stymied. So a scientist who resorts to falsifying data will almost always eventually be exposed and disgraced.

Male / female, correct assembly of bone, appearance of the fleshed out individual, which similar fossils were same species (mating capability).

Good. I can think of others, but the point is that there are multiple clues as to how to correctly arrange the fossil puzzle. Fossils are arranged by more than whim in patterns clearly suggestive of common descent.

Physics and math are not a historical science.

When applied in certain fields, physics is a historical science. How about radioactive dating which almost exclusively deals with the past? Geophysics deal with things like historical changes in the earth’s magnetic field, astrophysics deals with stellar changes over eons of time, etc.

Determining species is sometimes an imprecise science with live animals...

“Sometimes”, meaning pretty rarely. If your argument rests on the exceptions rather that the rule, then you really don’t have much to go on.

That much more imprecise and inaccurate when examining old bones.

As you just acknowledged, there is a lot more to it than just looking at old bones.

Are you willing to consider that the data fits a super natural creation?

For a long time I did just that. But over decades, the realization slowly (too slowly) crystallized in my mind that positing “supernatural” anything was far more of a destructive cop-out than a productive line of reasoning. Go back two thousand years – why the almost total stagnation in understanding the world? Anciently what caused great storms – a supernatural God did – no further research needed on that question. Cause of comets – supernatural – next question. Plagues – judgement of a supernatural God – no research needed to get that answer. Floods, eclipses, lightning, earthquakes – all supernatural. Anything not understood, just chalk it up to God, no need to look any further.

Today I don’t see that the things we don’t understand are materially any different from those questions of old that science finally did provide natural answers for. To plug God in as the answer would be just as destructive to progress in understanding the natural world as shuttering all schools of science.

Almost all college graduates exit college 100% committed to evolutionism.

Way overstated. Most college grads – those not in the “hard” sciences – either follow their religious or traditional upbringing on the matter of origins, or simply don’t know or care much about the issue.

They have paid tens of thousands of dollars along with several years of their life being indoctrinated into a single belief system. It isn't easy after that to say 'I understand the material taught for which I received my degree...But I don't believe it'. Yet, it would seem tens of thousands of scientists have rejected the common ancestry belief system.

You are quite welcome to plays the numbers game, in whatever guise you present it, and yet the fact remains that these dissidents you often posit are impotent at challenging evolution in the arena of secular science. For gosh sake, when are you guys going to actually present a coherent alternative to evolution, that relies on something more substantial than nit-picking at the fringes of science and invoking a divine super-magician each time the going gets tough?
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hey All,

I'm going to give this thread to patrick jane, if he wants it. This is the last time. I have too much going on in each day, and this takes hours of time. I have to read every thread, as possible, to see what you've all had to say. I then answer usually a post to cover all of the posts I've read. I would find it too hard to respond to each post. It's been awesome here! I will still, most likely, post here sometimes. Will chat with you then. I will also check out some of the other threads, but probably not too often. Like I said, my schedule is swamped. I have to make things right.

May God Watch Over Each Of You Closely,

Michael
 

redfern

Active member
Last night 6days posted a response to my last post above (#1,311). 6day’s post was #1,312, and had a time stamp of 6:42 PM. That post from 6days is now gone, and has been replaced by Cadry’s post # 1,312. What is going on?
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Last night 6days posted a response to my last post above (#1,311). 6day’s post was #1,312, and had a time stamp of 6:42 PM. That post from 6days is now gone, and has been replaced by Cadry’s post # 1,312. What is going on?


Dear redfern,

Hi!! Hope that all is well with you 2nite. The mystery about the post numbering is because 6days deleted the post that he was going to give, so it makes the next post have a new number. Hope that helps.

Warm Regards,

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Dear Good Brothers,

I can't continue in this thread and am turning it over to patrick jane. Tomorrow at this time, I will let you all know what we're going to do. I will close this thread, or hopefully, Patrick can just take it over from here. I'll leave that to his own discretion. He has a thread named Creation vs Evolution, so it will be that or the other. For the most part and he may do things either way. If you find my thread closed at this time 2morrow, just go to his thread and post there. Thanks so very much indeed!!

It's been wonderful have such good people post at this thread of mine. I hope you will enjoy your time at the Creation thread, this one or patrick's version. You can copy any posts here to paste on his new thread if you wish, it helps. I guess this was inevitable and is for the best. I'll keep in touch!!

May Jesus Return So Soon! Godspeed,

Michael
 

6days

New member
Dear redfern,

Hi!! Hope that all is well with you 2nite. The mystery about the post numbering is because 6days deleted the post that he was going to give, so it makes the next post have a new number. Hope that helps.

Warm Regards,

Michael
I deleted it? Hmmmmm ...Perhaps, my phone is a bit goofy. I will try it again.
 

6days

New member
redfern said:
But there is one big difference. Evolutionists are scientists,...
SOME evolutionts and SOME creationists are scientists. Some are soccer moms...Others are secretary's, students, salesmen, socialists and sandwich makers...but, all are sinners.*

redfern said:
which means they know “their beliefs” are secondary to what nature says. So when two evolutionists find they disagree on the evidence, they both know the next step is to look for still other relevant data that will confirm just which of the differing beliefs is the correct one.
Likewise when two creationists agree. However all have a priori *beliefs... a bias, no matter if atheist, pantheist, theist, nudist or Budhist.

redfern said:
I note the clear implication that paleontologists are fundamentally dishonest and willing to falsify their data...
That wasn't implied at all. Ex...The people who made the false / inaccurate claims about Darwinius *Massilae (Ida) ...in all liklihood believed what they claimed. They were not dishonest but were a little too eager make an important discovery.*
redfern said:
Good. I can think of others, but the point is that there are multiple clues as to how to correctly arrange the fossil puzzle. Fossils are arranged by more than whim in patterns clearly suggestive of common descent.
*No matter how many times evolutionists redraw Darwins tree. (its likely been a few hundred times)...its still wrong. The fossil record better fits the creationist orchard picture with multiple branching plants.

redfern said:
When applied in certain fields, physics is a historical science. How about radioactive dating which almost exclusively deals with the past? Geophysics deal with things like historical changes in the earth’s magnetic field, astrophysics deals with stellar changes over eons of time, etc.
Those sciences and others all perform science in the present. When they start extrapolating results into the past, then you have moved from emperical science to historical.*

redfern said:
“Sometimes”, (Difficulty determining 'species') meaning pretty rarely. If your argument rests on the exceptions rather that the rule, then you really don’t have much to go on.
Perhaps you can give a definition that applies in all situations?...or that all agree on?

redfern said:
For a long time I did just that.(considered the Creator)But over decades, the realization slowly (too slowly) crystallized in my mind that positing “supernatural” anything was far more of a destructive cop-out than a productive line of reasoning.

Not sure of your circumstances, but generally (Certsinly not always) someone in your situation grew up in a home and church where poor answers were given. Not always, but its common that people in your situation have a poor grasp of God's Word.*

And... that is why I think parents and preachers need do a better job of apologetics....Don't give kids dumb...or brush off answers.*

redfern said:
Go back two thousand years – why the almost total stagnation in understanding the world? Anciently what caused great storms – a supernatural God did – no further research needed on that question. Cause of comets – supernatural – next question. Plagues – judgement of a supernatural God – no research needed to get that answer. Floods, eclipses, lightning, earthquakes – all supernatural. Anything not understood, just chalk it up to God, no need to look any further.

We don't need go back two thousand years. We can look at how most people accepted Aristotolean 'science' as truth for hundreds of years.

It was Bible believing scientists who took scripture as a mandate to explore and understand the world around us.*
redfern said:
To plug God in as the answer would be just as destructive to progress in understanding the natural world as shuttering all schools of science.
The fathers of modern science didn't plug God in as an answer... neither do modern scientists.

IOW...your 'argument' is a strawman.*

redfern said:
Way overstated. Most college grads – those not in the “hard” sciences – either follow their religious or traditional upbringing on the matter of origins, or simply don’t know or care much about the issue.
Not true... College is a great place to lose religion. (Parents need teach kids good answers. They should understand the origins issue better than their teacher.
redfern said:
You are quite welcome to plays the numbers game, in whatever guise you present it, and yet the fact remains that these dissidents you often posit are impotent at challenging evolution in the arena of secular science.
You confuse 'evolution' with science. Common ancestry beliefs can't be refuted since it encompasses any, and all evidence. Dates are shifted up and down to make it fit the beliefs. Good design...bad design...functionless... sophistication..... all are made to fit the just so story.

redfern said:
For gosh sake, when are you guys going to actually present a coherent alternative to evolution....
You seemed to suggest you are unwilling to follow evidence that leads to our supernatural Creator. There is a coherent alternative to everything from nothing...life from non life.... biologists from bacteria etc. *The coherent logical alternative is "In the beginning, God...."
 
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