Justification of Eternal Punishment

nikolai_42 said:

This is the problem with founding a position on a single word or verse. It doesn't necessarily convey the breadth intended. For example, when we were dead in trespasses and sin, were we actually dead in the sense you are reading here? Are the "filthy dreamers" of Jude 1:12 "twice dead" and therefore not in existence?



I know what Jesus says about fewer stripes. And I know you probably think that it is impossible to have degrees of punishment if all are in the same fire. The fire spoken of is far more than just fire as we understand it - this is just an analogy for our understanding (seeing through a glass darkly and all that). I have no problem believing that the punishments God metes out are utterly just.

But if someone is actually dead, how does that work in terms of varying punishments? Are some just mostly dead?



Eternal life is a quality as well as a duration. Life more abundantly...

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i accepted and discussed that punishment has different degrees
and it actually proves that some that sinned greater shall suffer longer before (perish) [appollumi] to be utterly destroyed.

otherwise they would all be getting the same punishment never ending.

unquenchable fire does not define that which it (destroys)

the idea of the wicked soul as being immortal, indestructible, imperishable soul is hinging on the word forever.
which means till the end of the age, messianic age, period of time.

some will hinge it on unquenchable.

but God is a consuming fire
the eternal substance of the fire shows it is birthed out of and may imply it Is Gods consuming fire that does the destruction.

the fire is eternal

wicked are hay and stubble burned up by the (consuming) fire.

assigning attributes that are not evident in scripture is speculative.

Cross Reference said:

He didn't forget it. He ignores it.

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addressed it quite well thank you.

the assumption on ect's part is problematic

matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

we already discussed that and ECT's assumption and supposition that because the fire is eternal therefore the wicked are eternal (fails)

ECT assigns an attribute of eternal to the wicked because that which destroys it is eternal. bad assumption.

Mr. Knechtle is too "fire and brimstone" for me. He is also trying to explain the nuances of God's punishment and reward system--something that we will of course NEVER understand--like a lawyer would on the criminal justice system. Thus, he is woefully limited.

I doubt highly that God places more value on a Senator, or even the Pope, then he does on you who are reading this. Or anyone. Jesus spoke of this many times in many ways. In fact, the source of His constant squabbling withe the Sanhedrin and the Pharisees was along these lines. Jesus told us not to worry about what we wear or what we eat since the flowers in the field--which are valued far less by God then we are--are taken care of. And when he said that He was talking about ALL who listened to Him. He also continually admonished the Pharisees for putting on airs. And misusing their authority.

So much for God favoring the powers that be.

I personally do not believe in a literal Hell. I think it is the total absence of God's Grace after we die. A void. Where you have all the time in the world to sit in silence and replay over and over and over all the harm you did during your life. And you also are faced with knowing what that harm did to others. Over and over like a video loop. But yeah..I think it IS eternal.

Nikolai

yes the terror of Gods judgement is terrifying.

that does not equate an indestructible soul.

also.
multiple deaths is regeneration, resurrection, or reincarnation and the wicked do not have life let alone eternal life.

unless of course the implication is that God is resurrecting them to torment
them again.

also. twice dead similar to the (2nd death) first the body then the soul like Jesus said in matthew 10:28.

physical death and then 2nd death is permanent soulical death.

unless of course the wicked soul is imperishable or indestructible.
which is the key element of eternal life.

also
quality of life is an issue but there again the key word is (LIFE)

how does a quality of life come into play if one is (dead)?

the idea of the Heavenly (Father) being a never ending torturer to His created children and never end that torture sent me on a 25 year reassessment of this doctrine.

psalm 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all His ways And((kind)) in all His deeds.

surely like scripture says Gods kindness would put an end to the wicked

a rabid dog being put out of it's misery so it can no longer infect those around it is a kindness.

not chaining it up and torturing it never ending... because it is diseased.

wow
come on guys.

Word based mystic said:

addressed it quite well thank you.

the assumption on ect's part is problematic

matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

we already discussed that and ECT's assumption and supposition that because the fire is eternal therefore the wicked are eternal (fails)

ECT assigns an attribute of eternal to the wicked because that which destroys it is eternal. bad assumption.

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And you have a mis-construed understanding of the word destroy[ed] brought about by an irreconcilable religious doctrine you have bought into. But, you can't see that sufficiently to stop from ploughing threw anyway to what can only be a ill perceived hope..

Cross Reference said:

And you have a mis-construed understanding of the word destroy[ed] brought about by an irreconcilable religious doctrine you have bought into. But, you can't see that sufficiently to stop from ploughing threw anyway to what can only be a ill perceived hope..

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using strongs and youngs as a base for my word descriptions.

perish goes hand in hand with destroy.

matthew 10:28 shows we are still in context with KILL and destroy.

destroy brings something to uselessness

it is also reaffirmed with words like (DEATH).

ECT tries to change those words to mean (life)

indestructible, imperishable, eternal life,
= the righteous

the wicked do not have these attributes.
and are destined to perish.

)
Search Results
Strong's Greek: 622. ἀπόλλυμι (apollumi) -- to destroy ...
biblehub.com/greek/622.htm
Bible Hub
apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly. Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι. Part of Speech: Verb Transliteration: apollumi. Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee) Short Definition:

(utterly)

perish also has the same root word

622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy") – properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).

622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.

also

KJV Dictionary Definition: perish

perish

PER'ISH, v.i.L. pereo, supposed to be compounded of per and eo, to go; literally, to depart wholly.

1. To die; to lose life in any manner; applied to animals. Men perish by disease or decay, by the sword, by drowning, by hunger or famine, &c.

2. To die; to wither and decay; applied to plants.

3. To waste away; as, a leg or an arm has perished.

4. To be in a state of decay or passing away.

Duration, and time which is part of it, is the idea we have of perishing distance.

5. To be destroyed; to come to nothing.

Perish the lore that deadens young desire.

6. To fail entirely or to be extirpated. 2 Kings.9.

7. To be burst or ruined; as, the bottles shall perish.

Word based mystic said:

yup already addressed that many times

the fire and the worm are eternal

they consume

it does not make that which they destroy immortal or eternal or imperishable or indestructible or give them eternal life in hell

perish = appollumi (to utterly destroy)

matthew 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

we already discussed that and your assumption and supposition that because the fire is eternal therefore the wicked are eternal (fails)

you assign an attribute of eternal to the wicked because that which destroys it is eternal. bad assumption.

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Quite simple, but hidden from those with too high an opinion of themselves.

LA

Cross Reference said:

He didn't forget it. He ignores it.

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You realize that verse is talking about corpses and not living dead people in hell, right? It is better proof that the unrepentant will perish just as the Bible says than it is proof that the wicked will never die.

forward

Timotheos said:

You realize that verse is talking about corpses and not living dead people in hell, right? It is better proof that the unrepentant will perish just as the Bible says than it is proof that the wicked will never die.

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God's word is clear. The punishment for sin is eternal torture at the hand of lucifer himself (lower case l and lower case h). Those who don't know God don't know about His ways and what He says. You all must read the Bible and understand like God said so that you can know His punishments.

each:

IHaveGodInMe said:

God's word is clear. The punishment for sin is eternal torture at the hand of lucifer himself (lower case l and lower case h). Those who don't know God don't know about His ways and what He says. You all must read the Bible and understand like God said so that you can know His punishments.

each:

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The Bible does not say that the punishment for sin is eternal torture at the hand of lucifer himself. You need to read the Bible, which specifically states that the punishment for sin is death. Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".
God's Word is clear, it does not say what you claim that it says. Now, before you claim "but thats just one verse" remember that it is God's Word. Also you should know that there are many other verses in the Bible that also specifically state that the wicked will perish and will be no more. And before you attempt to claim that death doesn't really mean death, you should know that I will ask you for proof of any claims that "In the Bible death doesn't mean death".
I hope that covers any objections you have to God's Word. I suggest you read the Bible and believe what it says instead of just blindly accepting the false doctrine of eternal torture in hell.

Timotheos said:

The Bible does not say that the punishment for sin is eternal torture at the hand of lucifer himself. You need to read the Bible, which specifically states that the punishment for sin is death. Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord".
God's Word is clear, it does not say what you claim that it says. Now, before you claim "but thats just one verse" remember that it is "God's Word". Also you should know that there are many other verses in the Bible that also specifically state that the wicked will perish and will be no more. And before you attempt to claim that death doesn't really mean death, you should know that I will ask you for proof of any claims that "In the Bible death doesn't mean death".
I hope that covers any objections you have to God's Word. I suggest you read the Bible and believe what it says instead of just blindly accepting the false doctrine of eternal torture in hell.

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God's Word is simple and does not need explanation! I have shown you the Truth and now you must twist like lucifer himself to escape it!

IHaveGodInMe said:

God's Word is simple and does not need explanation! I have shown you the Truth and now you must twist like lucifer himself to escape it!

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For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but will have eternal life.

Can you show me how you arrived at your belief in eternal torture at the hands of lower case lucifer from that?

Timotheos said:

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but will have eternal life.

Can you show me how you arrived at your belief in eternal torture at the hands of lower case lucifer from that?

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I do not show anything. God shows through His Word. His Word is clear and needs no interpretation by us.

I have shown you the Truth from His Word and even a child could see it with his human eyes given by God!

Punishments for sin include the eternal torture in the hellfires. This is God's Law!

each:

IHaveGodInMe said:

I do not show anything. God shows through His Word. His Word is clear and needs no interpretation by us.

I have shown you the Truth from His Word and even a child could see it with his human eyes given by God!

Punishments for sin include the eternal torture in the hellfires. This is God's Law!

each:

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Jesus said that the fire of hell (Gehenna) will destroy those who are sent there. Matthew 10:28. He did not say that they would be eternally tortured there.
According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23
According to John 3:16, those who reject Christ will perish.
You haven't shown me why I should not believe what the Bible says.

Timotheos said:

Jesus said that the fire of hell (Gehenna) will destroy those who are sent there. Matthew 10:28. He did not say that they would be eternally tortured there.
According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23
According to John 3:16, those who reject Christ will perish.
You haven't shown me why I should not believe what the Bible says.

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See again, you do not listen to the Truth.

I do not show you anything. It the Lord Christ Jesus that will show you the Path.

I have shown you the Truth in my Words. You must not read the Bible or understand the Lord. each:

:think: Where has America gone to have people like this.....

IHaveGodInMe said:

See again, you do not listen to the Truth.

I do not show you anything. It the Lord Christ Jesus that will show you the Path.

I have shown you the truth in my Words. You must not read the Bible or understand the Lord. each:

:think: Where has America gone to have people like this.....

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I showed you what the Bible says, I'm sorry if you do not believe it.
You claimed that the Bible says that the punishment for sin is eternal torture at the hands of lower case lucifer. Can you show me the Bible verse that says this.

(Before you get too high on yourself, you should know that I have read the entire Bible, and I have read the entire New Testament in the original Greek.)

Timotheos said:

I showed you what the Bible says, I'm sorry if you do not believe it.
You claimed that the Bible says that the punishment for sin is eternal torture at the hands of lower case lucifer. Can you show me the Bible verse that says this.

(Before you get too high on yourself, you should know that I have read the entire Bible, and I have read the entire New Testament in the original Greek.)

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I have read the entire Bible four times, that is three more times than you. :cow:

You are trying to show me with your Earthly ways of using your senses. You cannot do that. You must look at the Word from God. I am not earthly, I am spirit and THE HOLY SPIRIT will enter you like He entered me and show you His Truth. Throw away senses.

IHaveGodInMe said:

I have read the entire Bible four times, that is three more times than you. :cow:

You are trying to show me with your Earthly ways of using your senses. You cannot do that. You must look at the Word from God. I am not earthly, I am spirit and THE HOLY SPIRIT will enter you like He entered me and show you His Truth. Throw away senses.

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You are a lot of fun. Tell me what John 3:16 says in your own words. You said that you read it 4 times. Tell me what it says.

(And I'm still waiting for the verse that says "the punishment for sins is eternal torture at the hands of lower case lucifer.")

:sheep: