ECT IDW's 'Supposed' 'gifted' 'Free'will

Moved to here so his own thread doesn't derail any further.

I believe a will is not really free other than 'free from God' as sinners, nor that such is a gift from God, but from our fallen ancestor Adam:

I drank what? said:

yes you do

.....aaaaaaand we arrive at the critical difference between your view and mine

I embrace my Free Will. I'm not ashamed of that gift from God...

side effects include:

dizziness
dry mouth
personal responsibility
fatigue
honor
dignity
acknowledging the Reality of Morality
cramps
insomnia

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LOTS of discussion on this specific that will likely take us on a long journey away from Salvation by Grace.

I believe you and I have a will and that it is enslaved to sin/free from God and then conversely enslaved to God and righteousness and free from sin and it's consequences.

I believe that a will to do anything other than what God intended for us, is not a gift, nor free. God told Adam and Eve in Genesis, that such a thing actually led to death, that it was not in fact, free. I believe in a will that either is enslaved to sin, or conversely in Christ, enslaved to God once again, as it should be. I 'used' to think like you and thought that my will to not obey was a gift, but then that stopped making sense to me in light of taking up my cross and following as well as "...not my will, but Thine..."

Matthew 6:24 "No slave can serve two masters..."

Lon said:

Moved to here so his own thread doesn't derail any further.

I believe a will is not really free other than 'free from God' as sinners, nor that such is a gift from God, but from our fallen ancestor Adam:

LOTS of discussion on this specific that will likely take us on a long journey away from Salvation by Grace.

I believe you and I have a will and that it is enslaved to sin/free from God and then conversely enslaved to God and righteousness and free from sin and it's consequences.

I believe that a will to do anything other than what God intended for us, is not a gift, nor free. God told Adam and Eve in Genesis, that such a thing actually led to death, that it was not in fact, free. I believe in a will that either is enslaved to sin, or conversely in Christ, enslaved to God once again, as it should be. I 'used' to think like you and thought that my will to not obey was a gift, but then that stopped making sense to me in light of taking up my cross and following as well as "...not my will, but Thine..."

Matthew 6:24 "No slave can serve two masters..."

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great post Lon. maybe IDW doesn't know his initials yet. he'll get a round tuit - :chuckle:

Lon said:

Moved to here so his own thread doesn't derail any further.

I believe a will is not really free other than 'free from God' as sinners, nor that such is a gift from God, but from our fallen ancestor Adam:

LOTS of discussion on this specific that will likely take us on a long journey away from Salvation by Grace.

I believe you and I have a will and that it is enslaved to sin/free from God and then conversely enslaved to God and righteousness and free from sin and it's consequences.

I believe that a will to do anything other than what God intended for us, is not a gift, nor free. God told Adam and Eve in Genesis, that such a thing actually led to death, that it was not in fact, free. I believe in a will that either is enslaved to sin, or conversely in Christ, enslaved to God once again, as it should be. I 'used' to think like you and thought that my will to not obey was a gift, but then that stopped making sense to me in light of taking up my cross and following as well as "...not my will, but Thine..."

Matthew 6:24 "No slave can serve two masters..."

Click to expand...

I say we are, and must be, free to choose God or reject Him. We must be free to obey our conscience or go against it. We were created with that ability to choose good or evil. That we fail to be perfect doesn't mean we don't have a free will. It means we too often choose wrongly as is made clear here.


Being a "slave to righteousness" doesn't mean we are unable to choose wrongly, just as being a "slave to sin" doesn't mean we don't have the ability to choose rightly. To say our will is a gift is a bit much, though. It's simply the way the Lord created us.

glorydaz said:

I say we are, and must be, free to choose God or reject Him.

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I understand the sentiment, and I agree in terms of what would then be 'free' but the term implies that we are masters of our destiny. Romans 8:2 implies that we are slaves to sin and death prior to salvation. If we are 'slaves' to anything, are we truly free? More importantly, when we are talking about sin and death, were you free 'from' sin prior to salvation?

We may not agree, but it is my impression that the questions are the more important matters here, not necessarily our conflicting answers.

glorydaz said:

We must be free to obey our conscience or go against it. We were created with that ability to choose good or evil. That we fail to be perfect doesn't mean we don't have a free will. It means we too often choose wrongly as is made clear here.

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Yes, but wasn't the actual consequence of sin, 'knowing' good and evil? If I didn't know evil, could I choose evil?

glorydaz said:

Gen. 4:4-7
And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
​

Being a "slave to righteousness" doesn't mean we are unable to choose wrongly, just as being a "slave to sin" doesn't mean we don't have the ability to choose rightly. To say our will is a gift is a bit much, though. It's simply the way the Lord created us.

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Thanks for that. I have to go the next step away from 'the way were created' because we weren't created knowing good and evil, therefore, I think - no choice (or all-choice without limitation, if you think there was nothing Adam and Eve could/would have done to displease Him prior to that). Again, thanks. I think it terribly important to describe the will beyond one-word terms and thanks for helping me flesh that out. Hopefully I Drank What? will see what he's been drinking

In Him

-Lon

(why don't laptop keys work as well as desktop computer keys? I love my laptop, but am finding I'm more inept than I used to be....)

Lon said:

Moved to here so his own thread doesn't derail any further.

I believe a will is not really free other than 'free from God' as sinners, nor that such is a gift from God, but from our fallen ancestor Adam:

LOTS of discussion on this specific that will likely take us on a long journey away from Salvation by Grace.

I believe you and I have a will and that it is enslaved to sin/free from God and then conversely enslaved to God and righteousness and free from sin and it's consequences.

I believe that a will to do anything other than what God intended for us, is not a gift, nor free. God told Adam and Eve in Genesis, that such a thing actually led to death, that it was not in fact, free. I believe in a will that either is enslaved to sin, or conversely in Christ, enslaved to God once again, as it should be. I 'used' to think like you and thought that my will to not obey was a gift, but then that stopped making sense to me in light of taking up my cross and following as well as "...not my will, but Thine..."

Matthew 6:24 "No slave can serve two masters..."

Click to expand...

Totally

Lon said:

Moved to here so his own thread doesn't derail any further.

I believe a will is not really free other than 'free from God' as sinners, nor that such is a gift from God, but from our fallen ancestor Adam:

LOTS of discussion on this specific that will likely take us on a long journey away from Salvation by Grace.

I believe you and I have a will and that it is enslaved to sin/free from God and then conversely enslaved to God and righteousness and free from sin and it's consequences.

I believe that a will to do anything other than what God intended for us, is not a gift, nor free. God told Adam and Eve in Genesis, that such a thing actually led to death, that it was not in fact, free. I believe in a will that either is enslaved to sin, or conversely in Christ, enslaved to God once again, as it should be. I 'used' to think like you and thought that my will to not obey was a gift, but then that stopped making sense to me in light of taking up my cross and following as well as "...not my will, but Thine..."

Matthew 6:24 "No slave can serve two masters..."

Click to expand...

Lon, do as you like but you're giving him exactly what he wants. I'd bet he doesn't even believe what he posts. He reeks of and/or

Lon said:

Moved to here so his own thread doesn't derail any further.

I believe a will is not really free other than 'free from God' as sinners, nor that such is a gift from God, but from our fallen ancestor Adam:

LOTS of discussion on this specific that will likely take us on a long journey away from Salvation by Grace.

I believe you and I have a will and that it is enslaved to sin/free from God and then conversely enslaved to God and righteousness and free from sin and it's consequences.

I believe that a will to do anything other than what God intended for us, is not a gift, nor free. God told Adam and Eve in Genesis, that such a thing actually led to death, that it was not in fact, free. I believe in a will that either is enslaved to sin, or conversely in Christ, enslaved to God once again, as it should be. I 'used' to think like you and thought that my will to not obey was a gift, but then that stopped making sense to me in light of taking up my cross and following as well as "...not my will, but Thine..."

Matthew 6:24 "No slave can serve two masters..."

Click to expand...

Though, by traditional implication, it does, absence of Christ does NOT intimate slavery to sin. It does intimate separation from the "knowing" of God's purpose for man's being. This needs no preaching re sin for salvation to that one hearing but the explanation of Jesus Christ for the satisfaction of the hope within that one who can hear. If John 17:3 can be used to explain anything, it certainly explains this to be the needed theme of any evangelism..

OMT, Romans 8:2 is of necessity given because there is no alternative for escaping the penalty of Adam's transgression. However, preachers-teachers take this too far to mean man can't help himself be a person pleasing to God. A good example is Paul himself that we might ask if he pleased God before He was saved?

Lon said:

I understand the sentiment, and I agree in terms of what would then be 'free' but the term implies that we are masters of our destiny. Romans 8:2 implies that we are slaves to sin and death prior to salvation. If we are 'slaves' to anything, are we truly free? More importantly, when we are talking about sin and death, were you free 'from' sin prior to salvation?

Click to expand...

Well, we are "masters of our own destiny" in that we are able (and must in order to have life) turn from our idols to serve the living God. Believing unto salvation.

We may not agree, but it is my impression that the questions are the more important matters here, not necessarily our conflicting answers.

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Could be above my pay grade.

Yes, but wasn't the actual consequence of sin, 'knowing' good and evil? If I didn't know evil, could I choose evil?

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Seems like the "knowing" was the guilt of having sinned, not the knowing of what was right or wrong. We choose evil knowing full well it's wrong.

Thanks for that. I have to go the next step away from 'the way were created' because we weren't created knowing good and evil, therefore, I think - no choice (or all-choice without limitation, if you think there was nothing Adam and Eve could/would have done to displease Him prior to that). Again, thanks. I think it terribly important to describe the will beyond one-word terms and thanks for helping me flesh that out.

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Weren't we created with a conscience? I think we were.

In Him

-Lon

(why don't laptop keys work as well as desktop computer keys? I love my laptop, but am finding I'm more inept than I used to be....)

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Don't ask me nothin' bout computers, brother. I can barely work this one.

umm, ok?

Lon said:

I believe a will is not really free.

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If it is not free, it is not a will.

You need to use words properly.

patrick jane said:

great post Lon. maybe IDW doesn't know his initials yet. he'll get a round tuit - :chuckle:

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you aren't the first to address me as such, i've been through legions

you probably won't be the last either

/at your service

Stripe said:

If it is not free, it is not a will.

You need to use words properly.

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i 2nd this notion

are we puppets of another?

does it matter that we don't get to choose the parameters of the system?

God created the universe and our souls. He accepts responsibility for that.

Once born, We individual humans can choose anything we want within that system.

We are bound to some rules/laws. (such as physics, core-logic, etc..)

after that it is 100% our responsibility what choices we make (and subsequent consequences arrive from those choices).

For example Good/Evil.

God gets to decide the terms, What is Good/Evil?

But it us the Free Willed agents that have to choose what happens next. He does not share any responsibility for our choices. We must answer for those.

So if your problem is that we aren't truly "Free" because the maze/rules were determined by God, then i'll just recommend you get over it and accept Reality. and choose carefully.

just because we don't get to pick the rules (religion isn't a democracy), that doesn't make us any less Free Agents whether or not to accept those rules or reject/ignore them...

Free Will

get over it

glorydaz said:

I say we are, and must be, free to choose God or reject Him. We must be free to obey our conscience or go against it. We were created with that ability to choose good or evil. That we fail to be perfect doesn't mean we don't have a free will. It means we too often choose wrongly as is made clear here.

Gen. 4:4-7
And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.​

Being a "slave to righteousness" doesn't mean we are unable to choose wrongly, just as being a "slave to sin" doesn't mean we don't have the ability to choose rightly. To say our will is a gift is a bit much, though. It's simply the way the Lord created us.

Click to expand...

yep

I'd say our free will is a gift, and i bet if i threatened to take yours away you wouldn't be too happy about it...

unless you'd prefer to be robot? God doesn't want robots, He wants Free Willed agents that have chosen to do Good.

but, to each his own

Lon said:

Moved to here so his own thread doesn't derail any further.

I believe a will is not really free other than 'free from God' as sinners, nor that such is a gift from God, but from our fallen ancestor Adam:

LOTS of discussion on this specific that will likely take us on a long journey away from Salvation by Grace.

I believe you and I have a will and that it is enslaved to sin/free from God and then conversely enslaved to God and righteousness and free from sin and it's consequences.

I believe that a will to do anything other than what God intended for us, is not a gift, nor free. God told Adam and Eve in Genesis, that such a thing actually led to death, that it was not in fact, free. I believe in a will that either is enslaved to sin, or conversely in Christ, enslaved to God once again, as it should be. I 'used' to think like you and thought that my will to not obey was a gift, but then that stopped making sense to me in light of taking up my cross and following as well as "...not my will, but Thine..."

Matthew 6:24 "No slave can serve two masters..."

Click to expand...

So, are you saying that sinning is free will, but believing God does not involve freedom?

jamie said:

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing, therefore choose life that both thou and thy seed may live. (Deuteronomy 30:19 KJV)​

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Ezekiel 18:20, 30-32 NKJV
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God . “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God . “Therefore turn and live!”

Mocking You said:

Ezekiel 18:20, 30-32 NKJV
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
“Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God . “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God . “Therefore turn and live!”

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I wonder why God's "gifted faith" to them that they would believe Him wasn't sufficient to sustain them?

I drank what? said:

yep

I'd say our free will is a gift, and i bet if i threatened to take yours away you wouldn't be too happy about it...

unless you'd prefer to be robot? God doesn't want robots, He wants Free Willed agents that have chosen to do Good.

but, to each his own

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If that's the way you see the word "gift", then it's no wonder you are confused about the gift of salvation. Being able to reason, plan, love, reproduce, etc would also have to be called gifts according to your definition. Instinct would then have to be considered a "gift" for animals, and roots a gift for plants. We were created with certain attributes, and free will is one of them. Your "robot" comment is silly considering what I said.

I drank what? said:

i 2nd this notion

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Well, I was going to let this go, but since you disagree too, a will is about what I can AND cannot do. It is both. Everybody understands a will in bondage. Everybody.