did you say it didn't?
ECT What is Predestination?
- Thread starter nikolai_42
- Start date
did you say it didn't?
nikolai_42
Well-known member
The Lord killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.
I Samuel 2:6
Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;
Job 14:5
My times are in thy hand: deliver me from the hand of mine enemies, and from them that persecute me.
Psalm 31:15
great thread
wouldn't you like to know who the calvinists are?
they dominate this forum
just like the mad ones do
so
under religious affiliation
why can't they identify themselves?
wouldn't you like to know who they are?
they dominate this forum
just like the mad ones do
so
under religious affiliation
why can't they identify themselves?
wouldn't you like to know who they are?
They are as far as I'm concerned and I was NOT discussing with YOU.
If YOU don't believe God cannot foreknow everything, then show us IN scripture where is depicts that.
Your lack of understanding or recognizing the hyperbole in these verses doesn't really help your case or cause.
Do you believe God is really a rock as v2 of 1 Sam 2 states, or that God actually puts our sins in a bag as Job states, or that God's face actually shines in David's site as he said in Psalm 31?
Read my posts and respond to them accordingly.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
So if the Lord doesn't kill and make alive, then who does?
Dialogos
Well-known member
You are making an argument about a theological truth (predestination) by appealing to experience.DR said:
I don’t care whether openness conforms to everyday experience or not. Our everyday experiences are viewed through broken lenses. That’s the clear implication of Romans 1:21-22DR said:
We all make assumptions, the important question is, “are those assumptions biblical?”DR said:
No.DR said:
My counter argument is “whether A conforms to B is irrelevant because B is a flawed interpretive framework.”
Openness may well conform to our flawed interpretations of our experience more than Calvinism does, so what?
My job is to….?DR said:
I’ll construct my own rebuttals in my own way, thanks.
You are welcome to make arguments that don’t matter all you like. I will continue to point out how little those arguments matter. As I have said, it may well be the case that Openness conforms to our flawed interpretations of human experience better than Calvinism does, so what?
I continue to maintain that our flawed interpretations of our human experiences are notoriously horrible criteria for determining the veracity of theological questions like predestination.
Your refusal to address the relevant scriptural arguments is noted however.
If Openness can’t defend itself with relevant biblical support and is not reduced to appealing to “experience” then the battle is really over.
I think I agree
Men kill, disease kills....look up the word attrition.
Life comes from life, which is called procreation. It's pretty basic biology 101.
Only you want a response that has already been given, and I tend to NOT repeat myself, especially to trolls.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Okay...so if God says it in the first person, is it still hyperbole? Because according to your reasoning above, anything that isn't blatantly obviously done by God can be chalked up to something else. That tends strongly towards Deism...
See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.
Deuteronomy 32:39
Or secondary testimony as to God's actions...
And it came to pass, when the king of Israel had read the letter, that he rent his clothes, and said, Am I God, to kill and to make alive, that this man doth send unto me to recover a man of his leprosy? wherefore consider, I pray you, and see how he seeketh a quarrel against me.
2 Kings 5:7
Again, if you insist on taking your perspective and looking for it in scripture, instead of learning what scripture is conveying, you will always find yourself eisegeting. Did God really have "flashing swords" and "arrows drunk with blood"? If you can't or won't see the metaphorical or hyperbolic language of scripture then you are doomed to never fully understand what God was trying to convey, especially as it was addressed to people over 3500 years ago.
and you are a troll.
This is not what I said. I said that openness conforms to everyday experience. I did not say that it conforms to our flawed interpretations of our experience. It conforms to our experience. End of story. Our experiences are what they are; no one is talking about interpretations of them. You have done nothing but avoid this issue.
Dialogos
Well-known member
Ah, now I see.
The core problem of your argument is that you do not see that we are always interpreting our experiences. And you don't have to look much farther than the scripture I keep quoting (and you keep ignoring) to see how this frustrates your argument.
Mankind sees the breathtaking beauty, the surprising intricacy, the impeccable order and the awesome power of the created world around us and in that sense we "experience" the created world.
Left to our own devices we end up with a fallacious conclusion - such as, the sun must be a god - because we take what we experience and we interpret it in flawed and broken ways.
And since we interpreted the most important aspect of our existence, our relationship with God, in this fashion, we are doomed to do that with pretty much everything else of spiritual consequence in our existence unless God intervenes.
This is the unavoidable conclusion of Romans 1:21-22.