ECT WILL PENTECOSTALS TELL US WHY ??

turbosixx said:

Ok, how is it not inference, because nowhere in scripture does it say anything about being a public profession. Here is my proof, from scripture, that proves it is NOT a public profession.

The people in Ephesus were taught the gospel and water baptized but it wasn't "correct" water baptism. If water baptism is ONLY a public profession, how can it be done incorrectly?

Acts 18:24 Now a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus; and he was mighty in the Scriptures. 25This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus, being acquainted only with the baptism of John;

So when Paul rolls into town he asked if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed. When he finds out they haven't, he doesn't ask them a single thing about what they were taught or if they truly believed, he asks them about their baptism. Why would Paul ask about baptism? He didn't question their belief and he knew they had been baptized. When he finds out about their baptism, the problem wasn't that is wasn't done in public or they had baptized themselves. It was water baptism done in public but it was not the correct baptism. When he discovers this is the problem, he baptizes them again with the correct baptism.



Acts 19:1 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." 3And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." 4Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.



That's right, bible says saved through water. God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you




I disagree. It says baptism is "a pledge of a good conscience toward God" and "not the removal of dirt". He is clearly talking of baptism, why else would he lead of with "saved through water"? 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,



Please show me.

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revpete said:

Acts 18:24

They were baptised with John's baptism and John's baptism wasn't Christian baptism, rather it was a baptism of repentance/preparation which was done in public. So, they were baptised correctly and in public.

Acts 19:1

Again they were baptised but not with Christian baptism. After they were baptised correctly they were filled with The Holy Spirit as they began speaking in tongues etc... Again this was done publicly.

I'm sorry but I am unsure as to what you are getting at when you quote the verses from Peter. However, it is clear that baptism alone does not save us as in the case of Simon the sorcerer who believed and was baptised but his heart was not right. In other words there was no inner conversion Acts 8: 13,21.

Pete ��

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revpete said:

Acts 18:24

They were baptised with John's baptism and John's baptism wasn't Christian baptism, rather it was a baptism of repentance/preparation which was done in public. So, they were baptised correctly and in public.

Acts 19:1

Again they were baptised but not with Christian baptism. After they were baptised correctly they were filled with The Holy Spirit as they began speaking in tongues etc... Again this was done publicly.

I'm sorry but I am unsure as to what you are getting at when you quote the verses from Peter. However, it is clear that baptism alone does not save us as in the case of Simon the sorcerer who believed and was baptised but his heart was not right. In other words there was no inner conversion Acts 8: 13,21.

Pete ��

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turbosixx said:

So we can agree baptism is more than getting wet in public. These people got wet in public and it wasn't right. Paul didn't just tell them about the right baptism, he performed it.

What I'm getting at, is people today will tell you it's an outward showing of an inward change, which is not stated in scripture but gleaned by inference. Let's look at some passages that tells us about baptism.

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;
Acts 22:16 Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'

Baptism saves us because that is how we are added to Christ.
Gal. 3: 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.


It's how we die with him and have the hope of resurrection.
Rom. 6:3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Col. 2: 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.


There is more, but what this shows is baptism is how we are added to Christ and in Christ his blood cleanses us and that is how baptism saves. Don't you find it interesting that all conversions, with any detail, end in baptism. I'm told it's the first ordinance of the church but it's actually the last step in conversion. That why they end in baptism.

So the bible says "baptism now saves you" and your going to disagree with that. Do you think it wise. Simon was just like everyone else in Samaria, he believed and was baptized. He was added to Christ and his sins were forgiven, but baptism doesn't come with amnesia, we still are who we are. He wanted to be right with God, that's why he says," "Pray to the Lord for me yourselves, so that nothing of what you have said may come upon me."

I choose to understand what baptism is and does by what the bible says with words rather than read between the lines.

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Cross Reference said:

Try this out in your own experience: Baptism is an outward profession of an inner hope that by the preaching/teaching I have received, I am left with the expectation Jesus changes lives irrespective of further participation on my part.. Whatta ya think? Am I close?

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WonderfulLordJesus said:

1 Corinthians 13

1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,
5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
13 But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

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turbosixx said:

I would love to comment, and I will, but first I would like to see scripture that backs this up.

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Psalmist said:

Disdainer of Pentecostals, maybe, maybe not. Still I think it bothers you.

"The circumcision are Pentecostals" -- chapter and verse of what?

I have read the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel (ICFG) three times today, and nowhere does ICFG teach circumcision is requires or one the articles of the ICFG statement of faith and amended articles of that statement of faith, ICFG circumcision from the O/T history and what God required of the Israelites. ICGF is very conservative Pentecostal church, salvation first, missions, church doctrine. Jesus is always first.

:kookoo: :kookoo: that's okay at least you have an opinion.

:e4e:​

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Psalmist said:

Because I do not respond right away is because I'm not always able.

Prove you wrong? What does novice have to do with it. You DAN P need to admit you think the Pentecostals are whacked in the head, no nothing and are followers of the O/T law and practice foolishness.

You have a fight against the Pentecostals, and apparently have not read any of their statement of faith or articles of that statement of faith.

"People are fearful of they don't understand, and do much to disprove it." Nathaniel Van Cleave.

To you the upper room experience and subsequent N/T scriptures about Pentecost are just page filler; I'll put it this way at least you a yes or no, black and white, true or false person, I admire that in people. I like, "Let you yes be yes and your no be no" of what Jesus said. It's the best way to treat things, with no gray areas you then have the absolute truth, and that is what I believe in. I also gauge a person by their truth and experience in life, church, Bible knowledge, of course I'm a novice after these 58 years of being saved and daily Bible study.

Carry on :e4e:​

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turbosixx said:

Dan P

I want to clear something up. I'm not a pentecostal in the denominational sense. I do not believe that we have spiritual gifts, like tongues, today. I do believe the church/kingdom was established on the day of pentecost.

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turbosixx said:

So we can agree baptism is more than getting wet in public. If baptism is only getting we in public then they should have been good. Paul didn't just clear up understanding about the right baptism, he performed it.

What I'm getting at, is people today will tell you it's an outward showing of an inward change, which is not stated anywhere in scripture but gleaned by inference. Let's look at some passages that tells us about baptism.

Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;
Acts 22:16 Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'

Baptism saves us because that is how we are added to Christ.
Gal. 3: 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.


It's how we die with him and have the hope of resurrection.
Rom. 6:3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Col. 2: 11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.


There is more, but what this shows is baptism is how we are added to Christ and in Christ his blood cleanses us and that is how baptism saves. Don't you find it interesting that all conversions, with any detail, end in baptism. I'm told it's the first ordinance of the church but it's actually the last step in conversion. That why they end in baptism.

So the bible says "baptism now saves you" and your going to disagree with that. Do you think it wise. Simon was just like everyone else in Samaria, he believed and was baptized. He was added to Christ and his sins were forgiven, but baptism doesn't come with amnesia, we still are who we are. He wanted to be right with God, that's why he says," "Pray to the Lord for me yourselves, so that nothing of what you have said may come upon me."

I choose to understand what baptism is and does by what the bible says with words rather than read between the lines.

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Cross Reference said:

Do you think they spoke in tongues when they were baptized? Do you think they were even saved before speaking in tongues?

"Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.
And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans." Acts 8:14-25 (KJV)

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revpete said:

Yes, we do agree that baptism is more than getting wet in public ��. Water baptism (going on the verses you site) completes the act of salvation by The Holy Spirit but only when it is possible, it is not always possible as I have stated in a previous post. Simon was not saved because his heart was not right, when he asked for prayer it was out of fear and not genuine repentance.

If you believe that baptism is necessary for salvation you believe the same (on that point anyway) as the Christadelphians which are a recognised cult. People have been saved without being baptised, again as previously stated in another post. Again I state it is not water baptism that adds us to Christ, it is Spirit baptism 1Cor. 12:13.

I respect your view of Scripture but sometimes what is not said is just as important as what is said. You do not have to read between the lines to know that water baptism was always performed in public. To say that Simon wanted to be right with God, now that is inferred and ignores the context which clearly shows that his primary concern was for his own safety not his own sin.

Here is how I interpret the 1Peter passage:

The ark, and deliverance by it, as it was a type of Christ, and salvation by him, so it was a figure of baptism, and baptism was the antitype of that; or there is something in these which correspond, and answer to, and bear a resemblance to each other: as the ark was God's ordinance, and not man's invention, so is baptism, it is of heaven, and not of men; and as the ark, while it was preparing, was the scorn and derision of men, so is this ordinance of the Gospel; it was rejected with disdain by the Scribes and Pharisees, as it still is by many; and as the ark, when Noah and his family were shut up in it by God, represented a burial, and they seemed, as it were, to be buried in it, it was an emblem of baptism, which is expressed by a burial, (Romans 6:4) (Colossians 2:12) and as they in the ark, the great deep broke up under them, and the windows of heaven opened over them, pouring out waters upon them, they were, as it were, immersed in, and were covered with water, this fitly figured baptism by immersion; nor were there any but adult persons that entered into the ark, nor should any be baptized but believers; to which may be added, that as the one saved by water, so does the other; for it is water baptism which is here prefigured. Christ gave a commission for, and his disciples administered: it saves not as a cause, for it has no causal influence on, nor is it essential to salvation. Christ only is the cause and author of eternal salvation; and as those only that were in the ark were saved by water, so those only that are in Christ, and that are baptized into Christ, and into his death, are saved by baptism; not everyone that is baptized, but he that is truly converted and is baptised, shall be saved.

Pete ��

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Cross Reference said:

Water baptism is purposed to be the way of testifying of our allegiance to Jesus Christ.

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revpete said:

Yes, we do agree that baptism is more than getting wet in public ��. Water baptism (going on the verses you site) completes the act of salvation by The Holy Spirit but only when it is possible, it is not always possible as I have stated in a previous post.

Pete ��

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revpete said:

Here is how I interpret the 1Peter passage:

The ark, and deliverance by it, as it was a type of Christ, and salvation by him, so it was a figure of baptism, and baptism was the antitype of that; or there is something in these which correspond, and answer to, and bear a resemblance to each other: as the ark was God's ordinance, and not man's invention, so is baptism, it is of heaven, and not of men; and as the ark, while it was preparing, was the scorn and derision of men, so is this ordinance of the Gospel; it was rejected with disdain by the Scribes and Pharisees, as it still is by many; and as the ark, when Noah and his family were shut up in it by God, represented a burial, and they seemed, as it were, to be buried in it, it was an emblem of baptism, which is expressed by a burial, (Romans 6:4) (Colossians 2:12) and as they in the ark, the great deep broke up under them, and the windows of heaven opened over them, pouring out waters upon them, they were, as it were, immersed in, and were covered with water, this fitly figured baptism by immersion; nor were there any but adult persons that entered into the ark, nor should any be baptized but believers; to which may be added, that as the one saved by water, so does the other; for it is water baptism which is here prefigured. Christ gave a commission for, and his disciples administered: it saves not as a cause, for it has no causal influence on, nor is it essential to salvation. Christ only is the cause and author of eternal salvation; and as those only that were in the ark were saved by water, so those only that are in Christ, and that are baptized into Christ, and into his death, are saved by baptism; not everyone that is baptized, but he that is truly converted and is baptised, shall be saved.

Pete ��

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revpete said:

Well, in this passage I think it's clear that they had already been baptised in water.

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Clear here, however, Cornelius and his crowd weren't.

It doesn't actually say that they spoke in tongues when The Holy Spirit fell on them.

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That is true, however again, it only shows a 'certain' sequence doesn't hold true for anything "pentecostal", doesn't it?.

However, Simon SAW something happen to them which prompted him to ask for the same power that the apostles had, no doubt so that he could make money out of it, for such was his character. Was that something speaking in tongues? I don't know, scripture is silent so any opinion would be conjecture.

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I whole heartily agree. We can only assume something was going on he wanted for personal gain/advantage when dealing with others.

As for your second question, they had been baptised in water so I would tend to give them the benefit of the doubt and say that yes, they probably were saved but then again so was Simon ��.

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All saved, perhaps, but not necessarily, ALL born again, eh?
"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."Romans 8:9 (KJV 1900) We really don't know, do we? I believe it is Jesus who chooses no less than how He chose Paul, i.e., by foreknowledge.

I've never heard of anyone having the genuine gift of speaking in tongues who was not saved.

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In my life, I have seen the good bad and the ugly in observing the gifts. I have seen presumption in action with much of it, in time, winding up in denial and/or neglect of the gifts more or less because of any personal spiritual growth in learning the ways of God Pentecost can greatly enhance by His "insight", majoring on the gifts and not the giver being the reason.

In fact I would go so far as to say that such a thing is impossible! Note, I did say the genuine gift of tongues not the counterfeit that satanists and some cultists have.

Pete ��

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Don't go that far. God always has His reasons that will ultimately reveal His intentions.. That is why we are given to measure everything by HIS "Spirit bearing witness" Jesus used against Satan in the wilderness when He 3 times declared: "It is written". Our responsibility is to "attain" within our Pentecostal enablement that which Jesus exampled which He received before going into HIS wilderness experience..

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turbosixx said:

I appreciate you discussing this with me, I'm trying to understand where your coming from. I don't remember what you said on other post, I will go back and look.

I agree the Holy Spirit and baptism work together because of this:
Jn. 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. When we look at the conversions, that have any detail, we see baptism mentioned much more often than the Holy Spirit. We don't have to read between the lines to know that the Holy Spirit is given because other scriptures tell us the Holy Spirit is given to converts. "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

When there are no scriptures that tell us something and man, in his wisdom, had figured it out, that's scary to me. The problems I have with most people are not based on what the bible says, it's what it doesn't say. I only know what I read.

How many people are needed to be public? According to scripture, the eunuch had one person in attendance.

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