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Thread: Battle Talk ~ BR IX

  1. #16
    Over 500 post club SUTG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mighty_duck
    6. Definition of science. This is where the future of this debate stands or falls. Hilston makes some fantastic claims here (that the biblical worldview is required to make sense of science). Opposing this will mean Stratnerd has been suckered in to Hilston's well mined territory.
    I'm almost certain that this will generate into another tired Argument by Assertion, like Clete's Carl Sagan thread. Here is a hint:

    The Creationist's faith in God grounds his reliance upon the principle of induction. Whereas, the Evolutionist must believe it blindly, with no rational grounding whatsoever.
    I'll wager you dollars to donuts that Hilsont will be as skeptical as they come until it is time to assert absolute knowledge of the Christian Triune God.

    Over the years, I've scome across quite a few of these transcendental argument threads, and they always end the same.

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    Over 4000 post club The Berean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SUTG
    I'm almost certain that this will generate into another tired Argument by Assertion, like Clete's Carl Sagan thread. Here is a hint:



    I'll wager you dollars to donuts that Hilsont will be as skeptical as they come until it is time to assert absolute knowledge of the Christian Triune God.

    Over the years, I've scome across quite a few of these transcendental argument threads, and they always end the same.
    Since the topic of this debate, I'm sure, has been debated for decades what new argument can there possibly be?
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    Hilston's approach was a bit suprising, I didn't think he'd come out so opposed to intelligent design.

    Nonetheless, what's to stop me from substituing the flying spaghetti monster as the one who told me that the axioms science assumes are correct? Or what about a giant axiom spitting machine who spits out true axioms at earthlings who happened to write them down? Further, why is faith in God any different than just assuming axioms?

    Hilston concludes with:
    Quote Originally Posted by Hilston
    Evolution, although it employs scientific principles by borrowing them from the Creationist toolbox, is blindly religious, and therefore does not qualify as science.
    But the same worldview brought us all the other disciplines of science as well as their respective advancements. Do these not qualify as science? Does that make them invalid?
    “There's nothing I like less than bad arguments for a view that I hold dear.” - Daniel Dennett

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    Over 500 post club SUTG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Berean
    Since the topic of this debate, I'm sure, has been debated for decades what new argument can there possibly be?
    Apparently, not all of the transcendentalists got the memo.

  5. #20
    Old Timer mighty_duck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny
    Nonetheless, what's to stop me from substituing the flying spaghetti monster as the one who told me that the axioms science assumes are correct? Or what about a giant axiom spitting machine who spits out true axioms at earthlings who happened to write them down? Further, why is faith in God any different than just assuming axioms?
    As far as I can tell, Hilston will claim that a worldview has to account for everything in this world, including logic, natural laws, morality, love, etc. and that the only possible presupposition that can account for all that is the Christian god.
    Logicallty, I think he has a point. I would love to see him try to prove all other groundings of axioms to be impossible. The Flying Spaghetti Monster seems to have a MUCH better account for the existence of pasta in the world.

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    As far as I can tell, Hilston will claim that a worldview has to account for everything in this world, including logic, natural laws, morality, love, etc. and that the only possible presupposition that can account for all that is the Christian god.
    But I don't understand what's stopping someone from claiming that the pepsi can sitting next to them is the originator of all things, and that the worldview the pepsi can shared with them accounts for all of the above. Can't you substitute any belief and have this logic hold true? It doesn't have to be the Christian God.
    “There's nothing I like less than bad arguments for a view that I hold dear.” - Daniel Dennett

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    Old Timer mighty_duck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny
    Can't you substitute any belief and have this logic hold true?
    Yes, you can, which makes Hilston's claims all the more interesting. stay tuned

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    Journeyman truthteller86's Avatar
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    Maybe one of you smart, educated people (not me) can start a mirror thread for us simple folk called: Battle Royale IX - The Redneck Version. I would pay good money (coupon for one free order of fries at McDonalds) to have someone translate both opening posts into redneck (Two sentences or less please). I'm sure there is a small portion of TOL audience out there who enjoy Nascar and Science. In all seriousness, I really appreciated Hilston's formatting. I hope Stratnerd can see the benefit to the reader, especially those who accidentally went over their "legal" limit this deer season.
    As long as there is breath there is Hope...

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by truthteller86
    Maybe one of you smart, educated people (not me) can start a mirror thread for us simple folk called: Battle Royale IX - The Redneck Version. I would pay good money (coupon for one free order of fries at McDonalds) to have someone translate both opening posts into redneck (Two sentences or less please). I'm sure there is a small portion of TOL audience out there who enjoy Nascar and Science. In all seriousness, I really appreciated Hilston's formatting. I hope Stratnerd can see the benefit to the reader, especially those who accidentally went over their "legal" limit this deer season.
    From Stratnerd's OP
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratnerd
    now off to Christmas shop, write two lectures, a lab exam, a final exam, finish a manuscript, review of manuscript, learn R and nonmetric nondimensional scaling, and bottle my first home brew!
    Stratnerd has told us he is making beer.
    Hilston has not mentioned beer as far as I know.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by fool
    From Stratnerd's OP

    Stratnerd has told us he is making beer.
    Hilston has not mentioned beer as far as I know.

    Buzzz, wrong answer. Please play again.
    Today's fortune cookie say: " The mighty oak was once a little nut that stood its ground."

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2ephesians8
    Buzzz, wrong answer. Please play again.
    Did Hilston mention beer?

  12. #27
    Journeyman 2ephesians8's Avatar
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    Yeah, AND he paired them with cigars...


    True Redneck info fo' sho'!
    Today's fortune cookie say: " The mighty oak was once a little nut that stood its ground."

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2ephesians8
    Yeah, AND he paired them with cigars...


    True Redneck info fo' sho'!
    To prevent any further disruption to this thread, I submit: Battle Royale IX: The Redneck Version
    As long as there is breath there is Hope...

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Hey, what do you guys think of the new format where both fighters make their opening posts the first day? I have never liked (in past battles) that when the battle begins you had to wait a day or two for the first post to be made.
    I think the best and most fair solution would be to have them both send their beginning posts to you, and then you post them both at the same time, but I have absolutely no clue if that's feasable.
    Reason is always a kind of brute force; those who appeal to the head rather than the heart, however pallid and polite, are necessarily men of violence. We speak of 'touching' a man's heart, but we can do nothing to his head but hit it. -G.K. Chesterton

  15. #30
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    Also, real quick, how is Battle Royale 9 going on after BR 10?
    Reason is always a kind of brute force; those who appeal to the head rather than the heart, however pallid and polite, are necessarily men of violence. We speak of 'touching' a man's heart, but we can do nothing to his head but hit it. -G.K. Chesterton

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