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Thread: REPORT: God's plan of salvation

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    [QUOTE=TimLutz;3875505]
    Seems the more I converse with you the more you seem to be more of an athiest posing as a Jewish zealot.
    I am sorry to hear that but hey! That's your opinion.

    So here is a a couple tests. First a ground plane. Israel was supposed to evangelize. See Jonah. Plus instructions in the law on how to accept gentiles.
    Yes, hence Isaiah 42:6 where we have that Israel was set aside for a light unto the Gentiles. Also, Jesus' confirmation in his sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews that, "You are the light of the world." (Mat. 5:14) Not only in the Law but also in Isaiah 56:1-8 the Gentiles are so welcome to join that they will get a name better than that of sons and daughters.

    But no they fell into the trap of being a exclusive intolerant tribe.
    But this attitude, I expect you to understand comes as a result of the persecutions we have suffered from Christianity throughout History. Jesus also said to the Jews something about that in his Sermon of the Mount: "Blest are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of slander against you because of me." (Mat.5:11)

    The Temple Mount Faithful have all items needed to start up temple worship including sacrifice.
    I do look forward to have our Temple rebuilt but not for animal sacrifices but as the mother of all synagogues. I don't believe to be literal that the Lord ever required the sacrifices of animals which were a custom of the Gentiles. It was allowed by Moses to make it easier to effect the Exodus from Egypt after 430 years in a land of pagans. That was the only religious ritual the Israelites had got used to and it would be too hard to start with a different method.

    But the last piece of the end time puzzle is the Ark of the Covenant being returned. Some say it is being kept in Ethiopia. Others say that Jeremiah and the Temple priest hid it in a special prepped area of the tunnel/cistren system under Jerusalem. Some say neither and have other ideas of its where abouts.
    IMHO, since the Ark of the Covenant was built by Moses and Moses was buried in the Mount Nebo in a grave that could never be found, Jeremiah must have hidden the Ark of the Covenant in the same place which became as Moses' grave, incognito. Mount Nebo was in Gilead over the other side of the Jordan River.

    So as a righteous Jew. What would be your first offering? Jesus had a lot more sayings on how to be "right" with The Father. Which is actually old Testament.
    The only way to set things right with God is repentance and obedience to God's Law. (Isa. 1:18,19) I also accept Jesus' saying on how to be right with God. By setting things right with our neighbor if he has any issue with us and then set things right with God. (Mat. 5:23,24)

    What does God require above sacrifice? And it has always been about being justified by Faith. Do a word search on the words Grace, Faith, and belief.
    He doesn't. All references to God's requirements of sacrifice in the Tanach is the result of religious piety. No one is justified by faith or grace but by obedience.

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    [QUOTE=Ben Masada;3876369]
    Quote Originally Posted by TimLutz View Post

    I am sorry to hear that but hey! That's your opinion.



    Yes, hence Isaiah 42:6 where we have that Israel was set aside for a light unto the Gentiles. Also, Jesus' confirmation in his sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews that, "You are the light of the world." (Mat. 5:14) Not only in the Law but also in Isaiah 56:1-8 the Gentiles are so welcome to join that they will get a name better than that of sons and daughters.



    But this attitude, I expect you to understand comes as a result of the persecutions we have suffered from Christianity throughout History. Jesus also said to the Jews something about that in his Sermon of the Mount: "Blest are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of slander against you because of me." (Mat.5:11)



    I do look forward to have our Temple rebuilt but not for animal sacrifices but as the mother of all synagogues. I don't believe to be literal that the Lord ever required the sacrifices of animals which were a custom of the Gentiles. It was allowed by Moses to make it easier to effect the Exodus from Egypt after 430 years in a land of pagans. That was the only religious ritual the Israelites had got used to and it would be too hard to start with a different method.



    IMHO, since the Ark of the Covenant was built by Moses and Moses was buried in the Mount Nebo in a grave that could never be found, Jeremiah must have hidden the Ark of the Covenant in the same place which became as Moses' grave, incognito. Mount Nebo was in Gilead over the other side of the Jordan River.



    The only way to set things right with God is repentance and obedience to God's Law. (Isa. 1:18,19) I also accept Jesus' saying on how to be right with God. By setting things right with our neighbor if he has any issue with us and then set things right with God. (Mat. 5:23,24)



    He doesn't. All references to God's requirements of sacrifice in the Tanach is the result of religious piety. No one is justified by faith or grace but by obedience.
    Seems the Christians have been around since the time of Moses. Or shortly after. And yes you have more opinion that what is understood as practices.
    And the sacrifices will resume as soon as the red heifer is procured. The sacrifices were first started in a tabranacle (tent). And it is believed that when the sacrifices are started up. God will make the temple mount available.
    But in honor of your influence. I wrote a small piece on the Bible. Which I plan on putting on Facebook and WordPress.

    The Bible is made up of 66 books thru 40 authors. Composed over a span of 1500 years. It has over 30,000 passages and over 700,000 words.
    It can be thought of an interactive communications device. From a class 5 civilization to a class 0. And the more it is read and seriously studied the more connectivity can be seen. I believe in taking the whole seriously. In context, understanding the one in the 200 types of speech is being used. Making note of the culture, time, and language translation differences.
    However. There are many who are out to deface and debase the Bible. And do not approach it in the right manner. Jesus referred to these as pigs and dogs. Whom you are just wasting your time quoting scripture to.

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    [QUOTE=TimLutz;3877244][QUOTE=Ben Masada;3876369]

    Seems the Christians have been around since the time of Moses. Or shortly after. And yes you have more opinion that what is understood as practices.
    I am not a Christian if this is what you are implying.

    And the sacrifices will resume as soon as the red heifer is procured. The sacrifices were first started in a tabranacle (tent). And it is believed that when the sacrifices are started up. God will make the temple mount available.
    I am glad you think so but not as the sacrifices are concerned. I want the Temple rebuilt but to be the mother of all synagogues; a place to be visited by all alike, Jews and Gentiles.

    But in honor of your influence. I wrote a small piece on the Bible. Which I plan on putting on Facebook and WordPress.
    Post it here. I am not too fun with the face book.

    The Bible is made up of 66 books thru 40 authors. Composed over a span of 1500 years. It has over 30,000 passages and over 700,000 words.
    It depends on the Bible you are talking about. As Jesus' Bible was concerned, it is composed of 39 books. The NT he never even dreamed that it would ever rise.

    However. There are many who are out to deface and debase the Bible. And do not approach it in the right manner. Jesus referred to these as pigs and dogs. Whom you are just wasting your time quoting scripture to.
    Well, I did find the text when Jesus referred to some people as being as pigs and dogs. It was at his Sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews when he warned them not to give what is holy unto the dogs neither cast their pearls before swine. (Mat. 7:6) Jesus was delivering that sermon of his to the Jews if you read Mat. 5:1 and 7:28. Do you have any idea whom he was talking about?

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    [QUOTE=Ben Masada;3877267][QUOTE=TimLutz;3877244]
    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Masada View Post



    I am not a Christian if this is what you are implying.



    I am glad you think so but not as the sacrifices are concerned. I want the Temple rebuilt but to be the mother of all synagogues; a place to be visited by all alike, Jews and Gentiles.



    Post it here. I am not too fun with the face book.



    It depends on the Bible you are talking about. As Jesus' Bible was concerned, it is composed of 39 books. The NT he never even dreamed that it would ever rise.



    Well, I did find the text when Jesus referred to some people as being as pigs and dogs. It was at his Sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews when he warned them not to give what is holy unto the dogs neither cast their pearls before swine. (Mat. 7:6) Jesus was delivering that sermon of his to the Jews if you read Mat. 5:1 and 7:28. Do you have any idea whom he was talking about?
    Still am kinda confused with your belief background. Especially since you do not go with Moses writing of the first five books. Imagination and passed tradition perhaps.
    It is. To have the guiding of the Holy Spirit in the Faith. The still quiet voice. Peace!

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    [QUOTE=Ben Masada;3876369]
    Quote Originally Posted by TimLutz View Post

    I am sorry to hear that but hey! That's your opinion.



    Yes, hence Isaiah 42:6 where we have that Israel was set aside for a light unto the Gentiles. Also, Jesus' confirmation in his sermon of the Mount to a crowd of Jews that, "You are the light of the world." (Mat. 5:14) Not only in the Law but also in Isaiah 56:1-8 the Gentiles are so welcome to join that they will get a name better than that of sons and daughters.



    But this attitude, I expect you to understand comes as a result of the persecutions we have suffered from Christianity throughout History. Jesus also said to the Jews something about that in his Sermon of the Mount: "Blest are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of slander against you because of me." (Mat.5:11)



    I do look forward to have our Temple rebuilt but not for animal sacrifices but as the mother of all synagogues. I don't believe to be literal that the Lord ever required the sacrifices of animals which were a custom of the Gentiles. It was allowed by Moses to make it easier to effect the Exodus from Egypt after 430 years in a land of pagans. That was the only religious ritual the Israelites had got used to and it would be too hard to start with a different method.



    IMHO, since the Ark of the Covenant was built by Moses and Moses was buried in the Mount Nebo in a grave that could never be found, Jeremiah must have hidden the Ark of the Covenant in the same place which became as Moses' grave, incognito. Mount Nebo was in Gilead over the other side of the Jordan River.



    The only way to set things right with God is repentance and obedience to God's Law. (Isa. 1:18,19) I also accept Jesus' saying on how to be right with God. By setting things right with our neighbor if he has any issue with us and then set things right with God. (Mat. 5:23,24)



    He doesn't. All references to God's requirements of sacrifice in the Tanach is the result of religious piety. No one is justified by faith or grace but by obedience.
    I would guess that if you would look at it from the poor abused citizen on the streets of Israel in the first century. Then you may be able to make sense why it is said 85% were Christian in the region by the end of that century. You had a corrupt abusive priesthood that showed favor to the wealthy and a government. Which was an occupation of a foreign power. A system that had cheats set up in the temple to sell tainted offerings. Also a system that treated women and outsiders second class.
    Then on the other hand you had a group spouting off about the Kingdom of God, forgiveness without payoff. Miracles ( supported by eyewitnesses), and prophesy pointing to the hoped for Messiah. A foot washing servant leadership. Equality for all. And all supported by a group that gave you the shirt off their backs.
    Looks like unfair competition to me. Ha!

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    [QUOTE=TimLutz;3877860][QUOTE=Ben Masada;3877267]
    Quote Originally Posted by TimLutz View Post

    Still am kinda confused with your belief background. Especially since you do not go with Moses writing of the first five books. Imagination and passed tradition perhaps.
    It is. To have the guiding of the Holy Spirit in the Faith. The still quiet voice. Peace!

    Posted from the TOL App!
    What difference does it make if Moses wrote those books or another Jew did it? To me, it makes no difference as long as the author was a Jew. I do not make of Judaism a way of life to me because of the authors of the Scriptures but because they were written by Jews and canonized according to Judaism.

    I don't have the guiding of the Holy Spirit in the Faith but in the mind as I don't walk by faith but by sight. According to Paul in II Corinthians 5:7, to walk by faith is for Christians; Jews walk by sight aka Reason.

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    [QUOTE=TimLutz;3878542]
    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Masada View Post

    I would guess that if you would look at it from the poor abused citizen on the streets of Israel in the first century. Then you may be able to make sense why it is said 85% were Christian in the region by the end of that century. You had a corrupt abusive priesthood that showed favor to the wealthy and a government. Which was an occupation of a foreign power. A system that had cheats set up in the temple to sell tainted offerings. Also a system that treated women and outsiders second class. Then on the other hand you had a group spouting off about the Kingdom of God, forgiveness without payoff. Miracles ( supported by eyewitnesses), and prophesy pointing to the hoped for Messiah. A foot washing servant leadership. Equality for all. And all supported by a group that gave you the shirt off their backs. Looks like unfair competition to me. Ha!
    Do you know why you haven't quoted any thing of the above? Because they are all lies fabricated by anti-Semites with the intent on Replacement Theology. The truth is quite different.

    First of all, perhaps about 5% and not 85% were of Christians by the end of the First Century. Till the destruction of the Temple in the year 70 ACE, Paul never could build a Christian church in Jerusalem. He had been expelled out of Jerusalem after only 15 days that he had come to preach his peculiar gospel in Jerusalem. He was almost killed for preaching idolatry in Jerusalem. (Acts 9:20,29)

    Regarding what you claim of a corrupt Priesthood and Jewish authorities who showed favors to the wealth and abandoned the poor are all lying anti-Semitic slanders. Priests and Pharisees would hold Yeshivas and teach Torah for free to prodigious young men who could not afford paying. They would even give a small salary so that they could dedicate themselves only to Torah studies. Once, Jesus was found in the Temple Yeshiva studying Torah. (Luke 2:46) It means that even Jesus was a beneficiary of the charity in a Pharisaic Yeshiva.

    And with regards to treatment of women, you are confusing the Jewish authorities with Paul who would refer to women as natural morons who should listen in silence and be completely submissive. According to Paul women were not permitted to teach and in no way to have authority over man. They should shut up because if it had not been for them, man would not have become a sinner. If they want to be saved, he said, the way was only through childbearing. That's in I Timothy 2:11-15. If in your eyes the Jewish authorities treated women as a second citizens, Paul who was the soul of the NT treated women as stupid slaves good only to produce children. What kind of a system was that?

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    [QUOTE=Ben Masada;3880087]
    Quote Originally Posted by TimLutz View Post

    Do you know why you haven't quoted any thing of the above? Because they are all lies fabricated by anti-Semites with the intent on Replacement Theology. The truth is quite different.

    First of all, perhaps about 5% and not 85% were of Christians by the end of the First Century. Till the destruction of the Temple in the year 70 ACE, Paul never could build a Christian church in Jerusalem. He had been expelled out of Jerusalem after only 15 days that he had come to preach his peculiar gospel in Jerusalem. He was almost killed for preaching idolatry in Jerusalem. (Acts 9:20,29)

    Regarding what you claim of a corrupt Priesthood and Jewish authorities who showed favors to the wealth and abandoned the poor are all lying anti-Semitic slanders. Priests and Pharisees would hold Yeshivas and teach Torah for free to prodigious young men who could not afford paying. They would even give a small salary so that they could dedicate themselves only to Torah studies. Once, Jesus was found in the Temple Yeshiva studying Torah. (Luke 2:46) It means that even Jesus was a beneficiary of the charity in a Pharisaic Yeshiva.

    And with regards to treatment of women, you are confusing the Jewish authorities with Paul who would refer to women as natural morons who should listen in silence and be completely submissive. According to Paul women were not permitted to teach and in no way to have authority over man. They should shut up because if it had not been for them, man would not have become a sinner. If they want to be saved, he said, the way was only through childbearing. That's in I Timothy 2:11-15. If in your eyes the Jewish authorities treated women as a second citizens, Paul who was the soul of the NT treated women as stupid slaves good only to produce children. What kind of a system was that?
    One instance in one church. Jesus had women as disciples. Unheard of. And if all the NT is a catch of lies. Then why did not the leaders oppose then by fact checking eye witnesses? Or where they inept? Or was Paul a all powerful genius? It is an either or it is truth. And you are just spinning tales. There are 18 independent sources that confirm the NT.
    Oh and a side note. Late dating the NT is kinda cut down because no mention of the destruction of Jerusalem ( was run over 27 times). Also your conspiracy theories on the rewrites kinda fall short. If so then they would match better. Points to independent authorship. You can reason yourself out of reasonability. As so it seems. And why is Judaism still flagging on outreach? Better get in the game unless you have been just playing with a losing hand. You are right about God desiring obedience and mercy over bribery.

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    [QUOTE=TimLutz;3881297]
    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Masada View Post

    One instance in one church. Jesus had women as disciples. Unheard of. And if all the NT is a catch of lies. Then why did not the leaders oppose then by fact checking eye witnesses? Or where they inept? Or was Paul a all powerful genius? It is an either or it is truth. And you are just spinning tales. There are 18 independent sources that confirm the NT.
    Oh and a side note. Late dating the NT is kinda cut down because no mention of the destruction of Jerusalem ( was run over 27 times). Also your conspiracy theories on the rewrites kinda fall short. If so then they would match better. Points to independent authorship. You can reason yourself out of reasonability. As so it seems. And why is Judaism still flagging on outreach? Better get in the game unless you have been just playing with a losing hand. You are right about God desiring obedience and mercy over bribery.

    Posted from the TOL App!
    Now, compare my well-documented posts with yours without a single quote and tell me who is spinning tales. That's a shame TimLutz that you don't have what it takes to discuss your own NT with a Jew who has read it just a few times. No other Jew would dare even to look at a NT in the library. If a few others like me went as far as to read it, Christians would be at a loss to justify the use of a Jew whose Faith was Judaism to preach against his Faith.

    Whatever you mean by Judaism flagging on outreach is fear for persecutions as they have suffered throughout History by way of pogroms, blood libels, Crusades, Inquisition and the Holocaust. But thanks to the internet we have found a safe way to defend our Faith.

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    [QUOTE=Ben Masada;3882760]
    Quote Originally Posted by TimLutz View Post

    Now, compare my well-documented posts with yours without a single quote and tell me who is spinning tales. That's a shame TimLutz that you don't have what it takes to discuss your own NT with a Jew who has read it just a few times. No other Jew would dare even to look at a NT in the library. If a few others like me went as far as to read it, Christians would be at a loss to justify the use of a Jew whose Faith was Judaism to preach against his Faith.

    Whatever you mean by Judaism flagging on outreach is fear for persecutions as they have suffered throughout History by way of pogroms, blood libels, Crusades, Inquisition and the Holocaust. But thanks to the internet we have found a safe way to defend our Faith.
    Text without context, is just pretext.
    The Bible can be viewed as an interactive device. A gift from a highly developed civilization. What you get out of it, depends upon your hearts attitude going into it. There are many verses that warn of God's dislike and resistance of prideful, hard hearted, mockers.
    The verses are there. And I have my doubts about you honesty in seeking God.
    One test..
    Can you agree.
    God loves us.
    God is good.
    God is just.
    God gives warning.
    Then I will share where to find the pearls.

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    [QUOTE=TimLutz;3884158]
    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Masada View Post

    Text without context, is just pretext.
    The Bible can be viewed as an interactive device. A gift from a highly developed civilization. What you get out of it, depends upon your hearts attitude going into it. There are many verses that warn of God's dislike and resistance of prideful, hard hearted, mockers.
    The verses are there. And I have my doubts about you honesty in seeking God.
    One test..
    Can you agree.
    God loves us.
    God is good.
    God is just.
    God gives warning.
    Then I will share where to find the pearls.

    Posted from the TOL App!
    True, that's why all that you have been posting so far is just pretext because even the texts you cannot indicate for evidences of what you say.

    True, the Bible is indeed a gift from a highly developed civilization. Take a look at the evidence of this fact in Deuteronomy 4:6. "...Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding People."

    True, the verses are there but you don't know where. At least it is a courtesy to quote your evidences.

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    [QUOTE=Ben Masada;3887175]
    Quote Originally Posted by TimLutz View Post

    True, that's why all that you have been posting so far is just pretext because even the texts you cannot indicate for evidences of what you say.

    True, the Bible is indeed a gift from a highly developed civilization. Take a look at the evidence of this fact in Deuteronomy 4:6. "...Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding People."

    True, the verses are there but you don't know where. At least it is a courtesy to quote your evidences.
    Could be found doing a simple web search. Wikipedia has an article on Jesus Disciples. But OK even though I fully believe your just as I suspected and not a God chaser. I will do the collection on women as disciples and in leadership roles in the NT. Got work so sometimes tomorrow.

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    [QUOTE=TimLutz;3887191]
    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Masada View Post

    Could be found doing a simple web search. Wikipedia has an article on Jesus Disciples. But OK even though I fully believe your just as I suspected and not a God chaser. I will do the collection on women as disciples and in leadership roles in the NT. Got work so sometimes tomorrow.

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    Good luck!

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    [QUOTE=Ben Masada;3887201]
    Quote Originally Posted by TimLutz View Post

    Good luck!
    Mark chapters 15 and16. Acts chapter 1 for starters.

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    Acts chapters 16 and 17

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