REPORT: God's plan of salvation

[Ben Masada]

And no I do not believe in Replacement theology. My boss is a Jewish carpenter who made the greatest purist sacrifice ever. Canceling all sin debt to whomever accepts. It was not nail that held Him there. It was love.

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Love! Are you sure? Is there love where one has no other option but to go for it? In the Gethsemane Jesus prayed three times not to walk the Via Dolorosa. Since he got no reply to his prayers, he lost hope and said something like, "Okay, so let thy will be done and not mine." What was Jesus' will? Obviously not to die on the cross. Therefore, he had no option but to take the cross, so to speak.

It was not of Jesus to cancel the sins of any one as no one can die for the sins of another. (Jer. 31:30) Only he whom we have offended has the power to forgive our sins. BTW, Jesus himself made that very clear when he said to the one who has brought his offer to the altar and is reminded that someone has a case with him, to leave every thing pending and go first to be reconciled with his brother and then return to the altar. (Mat. 5:23,24)

[intojoy]

Love! Are you sure? Is there love where one has no other option but to go for it? In the Gethsemane Jesus prayed three times not to walk the Via Dolorosa. Since he got no reply to his prayers, he lost hope and said something like, "Okay, so let thy will be done and not mine." What was Jesus' will? Obviously not to die on the cross. Therefore, he had no option but to take the cross, so to speak.



It was not of Jesus to cancel the sins of any one as no one can die for the sins of another. (Jer. 31:30) Only he whom we have offended has the power to forgive our sins. BTW, Jesus himself made that very clear when he said to the one who has brought his offer to the altar and is reminded that someone has a case with him, to leave every thing pending and go first to be reconciled with his brother and then return to the altar. (Mat. 5:23,24)

Ben, have you read "Brothers" about the Jews from Poland during the pograms? It has nothing to do with Christ. Just about the Jews.

I love the Jews bro. Even those who deny the Messianic claims of Yeshua presented by His Jewish disciples.

It is unfortunate there aren't any Messianic Jews on TOL that can communicate on your level of intellect. There are many Gentiles that can and do but these believers do not present Yeshua from the Jewish context in which He came and died and rose from the dead. They present what they know and have been taught of which I mostly agree with but it lacks contextual arguments that favor Yeshua as your/our legitimate King Messiah.

If you want to challenge your thoughts against these of those trained up in Judaism I recommend Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum, and Gary Derechinsky.

Both from Polish Jewish historical cruelty handed out by "Christians". Gary's grandfather was conscripted by the Red Army. Many Jewish people who survived that horrific experience before hitler would not share with their families what happened there. They did not share their experience because they felt guilt to have seen their families slaughtered by the so called "Christians" while they survived.

Bernice Ruebens shares their story in her novel Brothers. I highly recommend that Christians read it.

Your friend - in2teasing people

[Ben Masada]

[QUOTE=intojoy;3872345]

Ben, have you read "Brothers" about the Jews from Poland during the pograms? It has nothing to do with Christ. Just about the Jews.

No Intojoy, I have not read it. I'll try to google it.

I love the Jews bro. Even those who deny the Messianic claims of Yeshua presented by His Jewish disciples.

Sorry pal, but I don't believe Yeshua ever claimed to be the Messiah or that even his disciples presented him as such. Evidence? The Sect of the Nazarenes organized on behalf of Jesus by the Apostles was headquartered in Jerusalem and preached their gospel without being bothered by the local Jews. When Paul brought his gospel to Jerusalem he was almost killed for preaching idolatry in Jerusalem. (Acts 9:20,29)

It is unfortunate there aren't any Messianic Jews on TOL that can communicate on your level of intellect. There are many Gentiles that can and do but these believers do not present Yeshua from the Jewish context in which He came and died and rose from the dead.

Sorry again Intojoy, but Yeshua according to the above could never be from the Jewish context but from the context of Paul's gospel. Bodily resurrection is not according to Judaism the Faith of Jesus.

They present what they know and have been taught of which I mostly agree with but it lacks contextual arguments that favor Yeshua as your/our legitimate King Messiah.

Yeshua was not our legitimate Messiah. If you read Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord comes forth to save His People; to save His anointed one." That's the word for the collective Messiah, "The Lord's anointed one."

If you want to challenge your thoughts against these of those trained up in Judaism I recommend Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum, and Gary Derechinsky.

I have a few ones discussing the matter through my private email. If there is a way to contact these two men you mention above, I'll be more than happy to comply.

Both from Polish Jewish historical cruelty handed out by "Christians". Gary's grandfather was conscripted by the Red Army. Many Jewish people who survived that horrific experience before hitler would not share with their families what happened there. They did not share their experience because they felt guilt to have seen their families slaughtered by the so called "Christians" while they survived.

I have read a lot about the Holocaust and the Jewish persecutions in the Russian Pale but never about these two men.

[beloved57]

[QUOTE=Ben Masada;3872624]

No Intojoy, I have not read it. I'll try to google it.



Sorry pal, but I don't believe Yeshua ever claimed to be the Messiah or that even his disciples presented him as such. Evidence? The Sect of the Nazarenes organized on behalf of Jesus by the Apostles was headquartered in Jerusalem and preached their gospel without being bothered by the local Jews. When Paul brought his gospel to Jerusalem he was almost killed for preaching idolatry in Jerusalem. (Acts 9:20,29)



Sorry again Intojoy, but Yeshua according to the above could never be from the Jewish context but from the context of Paul's gospel. Bodily resurrection is not according to Judaism the Faith of Jesus.



Yeshua was not our legitimate Messiah. If you read Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord comes forth to save His People; to save His anointed one." That's the word for the collective Messiah, "The Lord's anointed one."



I have a few ones discussing the matter through my private email. If there is a way to contact these two men you mention above, I'll be more than happy to comply.



I have read a lot about the Holocaust and the Jewish persecutions in the Russian Pale but never about these two men.

The jews hated God and Christ !

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[intojoy]

Obviously a pro conscriptor!

[beloved57]

[QUOTE=intojoy;3873055]

Jesus is Jewish and speaks Hebrew

Not the Jesus that died for the sins of His people Israel, for He did not have a blood jew father nor was He from a human egg of a jewish woman !

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[intojoy]

We have a word we use in Polynesia, neutrally, for calling one a butt.

[intojoy]

[QUOTE=beloved57;3873061]

Not the Jesus that died for the sins of His people Israel, for He did not have a blood jew father nor was He from a human egg of a jewish woman !

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Ufa (ooofah)

[TimLutz]

Would like to point out that there is no shortage of warped people using religion to abuse others.
Also that Zionist Christians abound. How else could you explain Israel's United States support of millions a day. Plus the middle defence system "Iron Dome". That the Israelis perfected. Then the Christian ministries to aid Jews in Russia. No wonder so many convert in response to outreach of love. The law of love is the Way.

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[TimLutz]

Love! Are you sure? Is there love where one has no other option but to go for it? In the Gethsemane Jesus prayed three times not to walk the Via Dolorosa. Since he got no reply to his prayers, he lost hope and said something like, "Okay, so let thy will be done and not mine." What was Jesus' will? Obviously not to die on the cross. Therefore, he had no option but to take the cross, so to speak.

It was not of Jesus to cancel the sins of any one as no one can die for the sins of another. (Jer. 31:30) Only he whom we have offended has the power to forgive our sins. BTW, Jesus himself made that very clear when he said to the one who has brought his offer to the altar and is reminded that someone has a case with him, to leave every thing pending and go first to be reconciled with his brother and then return to the altar. (Mat. 5:23,24)

One quick note.
Look at the over all patterns.
Matches. Will try to compile a good list when get time.
But the same hill Jesus sacrifices himself. Is the same one Abraham offered Issac.

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[TimLutz]

Christ was not the Essenes righteous teacher.
1. Jesus opposed legalism, whereas the Essenes held strictly to it.
2. Jesus also opposed ceremonial purity, while the Essenes again, adhered meticulously to it.
3. Jesus associated with common people and "sinners", whereas such activity was appalling to the Essenes.
4. The sinlessness of Jesus in contrast to the Essene teaching that even the Messiah would be purified from sin by suffering.
5. Jesus combined several messianic aspects, while the Qumran community was looking for two ( or even three) different messiahs.
6. Jesus did not teach a strong* hierarchy among his followers, while the Essenes imposed strict social rules.
7. Jesus group was open, but the Essene community was closed.
8.Jesus' ministry was public, while the Essenes were very private.
9. Jesus' teachings were oral, whereas the Essenes emphasised writing and copying.
10. Jesus' manner of teaching was clear, not obtuse as in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
11. Jesus had no formal training, in contrast to those from the Qumran community.
12. Healing was a major part of Jesus ministry, but this aspect was not emphasized at Qumran.
13. The teaching of love was Jesus' major ethical message, but does not appear in Essenes teachings.

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[Ben Masada]

Would like to point out that there is no shortage of warped people using religion to abuse others.
Also that Zionist Christians abound. How else could you explain Israel's United States support of millions a day. Plus the middle defence system "Iron Dome". That the Israelis perfected. Then the Christian ministries to aid Jews in Russia. No wonder so many convert in response to outreach of love. The law of love is the Way.

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First about your claim of Israel-USA support of millions a day. More than half of it comes from the Jewish pocket of the Diaspora Jews. The US part is not cash but weapons and defense systems perfected by Israel.

The aid from Christian ministries especially to the Russian Jews is based on two reasons: First due to the Christian belief that by doing so, they are rushing the return of Jesus and second, money; Jewish money donations to their ministries throughout the Diaspora. Once in LA, I asked this question to a Pastor and he said that the most abundant of donations are from rich Jews to promote their work in Israel.

[Ben Masada]

One quick note.
Look at the over all patterns.
Matches. Will try to compile a good list when get time.
But the same hill Jesus sacrifices himself. Is the same one Abraham offered Issac.

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Abraham never literally offered Isaac in a burning sacrifice. The test was only part of a Catch-22. He never even left his bed. Here is what happened:

The Lord's Catch-22

According to a certain midrash reported by Thomas Mann in his book "Joseph and his Brothers," after a while that Abraham had arrived in Canaan, from his country and folks in Ur of the Chaldeans, he was deeply impressed about the deep love with which the Canaanites would love their gods as to offer their firstborn son in a burn sacrifice. Abraham would go frustrate to think that he could not express his love for Elohim in such a dramatic way.

As Abraham would try to chew that paradox in his mind, he fell asleep and had a dream. Elohim would identify Himself thus: I am Molech, bull-king of the baalites and command you to bring your firstborn son Isaac and offer him in a burn sacrifice to Me.

As Abraham set about to do so, the Lord said, "How dare you! Am I Molech bull-king of the baalites? I expected you to know much better. What I have commanded, I did not command so that you would do it, but that you might learn that you should not do it; because it is nothing but an abomination in My sight, instead; and don't confuse the practices of the Gentiles with the People you will sire. Behold a ram; offer it instead.

[Ben Masada]

Christ was not the Essenes righteous teacher.
1. Jesus opposed legalism, whereas the Essenes held strictly to it.
2. Jesus also opposed ceremonial purity, while the Essenes again, adhered meticulously to it.
3. Jesus associated with common people and "sinners", whereas such activity was appalling to the Essenes.
4. The sinlessness of Jesus in contrast to the Essene teaching that even the Messiah would be purified from sin by suffering.
5. Jesus combined several messianic aspects, while the Qumran community was looking for two ( or even three) different messiahs.
6. Jesus did not teach a strong* hierarchy among his followers, while the Essenes imposed strict social rules.
7. Jesus group was open, but the Essene community was closed.
8.Jesus' ministry was public, while the Essenes were very private.
9. Jesus' teachings were oral, whereas the Essenes emphasised writing and copying.
10. Jesus' manner of teaching was clear, not obtuse as in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
11. Jesus had no formal training, in contrast to those from the Qumran community.
12. Healing was a major part of Jesus ministry, but this aspect was not emphasized at Qumran.
13. The teaching of love was Jesus' major ethical message, but does not appear in Essenes teachings.

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Jesus was a Jew of the fundamentalist kind of the Essenes and Pharisees. If you don't believe what I am saying, read Matthew 5:17-19. He said, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it down to the letter even down to the dot of the letter." That's how the Essenes and Pharisees used to do. Jesus even implied with the parable of the Richman and Lazarus that the only way to escape hell is by listening to "Moses" which means the Law.
Read Luke 16:29-31.

What's the matter? This is from your own NT. How come you do not understand these things? Trying to hide Jesus' similarities with his Faith which was Judaism? Not too wise.

[TimLutz]

Jesus was a Jew of the fundamentalist kind of the Essenes and Pharisees. If you don't believe what I am saying, read Matthew 5:17-19. He said, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it down to the letter even down to the dot of the letter." That's how the Essenes and Pharisees used to do. Jesus even implied with the parable of the Richman and Lazarus that the only way to escape hell is by listening to "Moses" which means the Law.
Read Luke 16:29-31.

What's the matter? This is from your own NT. How come you do not understand these things? Trying to hide Jesus' similarities with his Faith which was Judaism? Not too wise.

Seems the more I converse with you the more you seem to be more of an athiest posing as a Jewish zealot.
So here is a a couple tests.
First a ground plane. Israel was supposed to evangelize. See Jonah. Plus instructions in the law on how to accept gentiles. But no they fell into the trap of being a exclusive intolerant tribe. Hense in the later times the Pharasies got a program started. As exampled by a couple quotes from Jesus.
But on with it.
The Temple Mount Faithful have all items needed to start up temple worship including sacrifice. Except that they deem it necessary that the first sacrifice is to be a red heifer. There is usually only one such an animal per generation. But in the last twenty years two have been put forth. But both had flaws. There is a breeding program and even genetic tinkering. God will provide. But the last piece of the end time puzzle is the Ark of the Covenant being returned. Some say it is being kept in Ethiopia. Others say that Jeremiah and the Temple priest hid it in a special prepped area of the tunnel/cistren system under Jerusalem. Some say neither and have other ideas of its where abouts.
So as a righteous Jew. What would be your first offering?
Jesus had a lot more sayings on how to be "right" with The Father. Which is actually old Testament. What does God require above sacrifice? And it has always been about being justified by Faith. Do a word search on the words Grace, Faith, and belief.
Seems that you like to pull things in from out of the scripture to prop up your point. So the person was an eye witness of Abraham. Amazing. I do not believe that the non Jewish history outside of scripture says anything against that part of His Story.
But it does say that Nimrod named what we call the constellation Orien, the "Hunter". But they call it another name, "The Fool". Which is what some half baked no degree debunker of the Bible really is.

Abraham never literally offered Isaac in a burning sacrifice. The test was only part of a Catch-22. He never even left his bed. Here is what happened:

The Lord's Catch-22

According to a certain midrash reported by Thomas Mann in his book "Joseph and his Brothers," after a while that Abraham had arrived in Canaan, from his country and folks in Ur of the Chaldeans, he was deeply impressed about the deep love with which the Canaanites would love their gods as to offer their firstborn son in a burn sacrifice. Abraham would go frustrate to think that he could not express his love for Elohim in such a dramatic way.

As Abraham would try to chew that paradox in his mind, he fell asleep and had a dream. Elohim would identify Himself thus: I am Molech, bull-king of the baalites and command you to bring your firstborn son Isaac and offer him in a burn sacrifice to Me.

As Abraham set about to do so, the Lord said, "How dare you! Am I Molech bull-king of the baalites? I expected you to know much better. What I have commanded, I did not command so that you would do it, but that you might learn that you should not do it; because it is nothing but an abomination in My sight, instead; and don't confuse the practices of the Gentiles with the People you will sire. Behold a ram; offer it instead.

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