ECT Predestination or Free Will
- Thread starter Bright Raven
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God is the first cause of all things
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Whose we? Even the very elect can be deceived.
free will makes man the cause of his own salvation
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Yes __ and?
musterion
Well-known member
I challenge you to prove you're not a lying troll and quote one free will advocate who says it is anything but Christ alone that saves.
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Well, he certainly has a role to play in it. It is his life, ya know.
It is a dangerous presumption for men to take upon themselves, with unwashed hands, to unriddle the deep mysteries of God with their carnal reason
Predestination cannot be conditional, upon a foresight of man's faith, works, or perseverance, etc.
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Oh __ye-e-a-a-h-a. O-o-o-kee. Spoken like a good Lapsarian.
I said
What everyone is missing is this. Christianity was predestined and we choose to be part of it.
turbosixx
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turbosixx
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That's apples and oranges. Yes, Christ alone saves but how does one come to be in Christ?
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1Mind1Spirit
Literal lunatic
Of course, it's by the whim of God.
37Who is there who speaks and it comes to pass, Unless the Lord has commanded it?
38Is it not from the mouth of the Most High That both good and ill go forth?…
ttruscott
Well-known member
Both.
But
- sinners have no free will
- all sin is created by the creature by their free will
- all are born sinners
therefore it is obvious that all have chosen sin before their birth and our birth cannot be our creation but merely a sowing of us into the field of the world from the storage bin of sheol.
IF
- GOD does not create evil nor sinners yet
- we are born on earth as sinners
THEN it is obvious we must have had a time of free will before earth in which we chose to put our faith in GOD and then rebelled (if we rebelled against HIM before putting our faith in HIM and HIS promises we would be demons, the eternally evil reprobate, forever outside of HIS promise of salvation).
So pre-earth we became HIS elect when we accepted HIS free offer of election to heaven by salvation from any future sin AND then we sinned against HIS call to judge the eternally evil tares believing that d*mnation was too harsh, the call to soon as not giving them enough time to repent and too unloving. This made these elect as evil as the demons and just as enslaved by the addictive power of sin so they had to be redeemed by the cross and then, to become sanctified, they had to live with the tares so as to learn their evil was / is eternal and destructive to all that is holy and hell is a necessity which we learn by living with them.
Pre-earth we put our faith in HIS claims to be our GOD and in HIS promises of election and salvation...but then sinned. On earth we live in sin until we are brought back to our first free will faith by HIS grace, our eyes are opened and we repent and come to the cross of redemption and then, with a new mind reborn not addicted to evil any more but still loving the pleasures and profits of sin, we enter into the training of our free will to learn to be righteous and holy.
When the last sinful elect is fully sanctified, that is, ready to be be harvested as mature, then and only then will the tares be gathered and burnt. That is why Peter exhorts us to holiness to speed the coming of that great and terrible day: 2 Peter 3:11-12
Peace, Ted
Of course, it's by the whim of God.
Jesus not only knew them in the sense of perfect cognition, but He also foreknew them in the sense of forelove or covenant grace.
