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Thread: One on One: Mr. 5020 & Knight (II)

  1. #16
    Over 2000 post club Mr. 5020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Do you concede that the future is conditional for God?

    In other words....
    do you believe that the future is NOT settled from God's perspective but instead is contengent upon conditions that have yet to be met?
    I believe that, while we do have the ability to make choices determining our future, God already knows what those choices will be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Very good, there is no other logical reason for prophecy is there? And the fact that God wants to effect our wills via prophecy is proof in and of itself that men have a will of their own. I realize you aren't a full blown Calvinist and probably don't disagree with me on this issue but I think this is an important fact to brought to the surface anyway.
    You're right, I do not disagree with you on this issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Absolutely not. God promises our salvation is secure and gives us the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.

    Is there any logical reason that God would have to know the future just to keep a promise?
    Nope. I was just wondering, since I had heard that (or implications of that) around TOL, though I wasn't able to find that exact post(s).

  2. #17
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. 5020
    I believe that, while we do have the ability to make choices determining our future, God already knows what those choices will be.
    So then you reject that the future is conditional from God's perspective?

    For if God already knows every choice for all of time there are no "conditions" that could alter the future that is settled for God.

    Is that what you are saying?
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    So then you reject that the future is conditional from God's perspective?

    For if God already knows every choice for all of time there are no "conditions" that could alter the future that is settled for God.

    Is that what you are saying?
    There's a lot of words there, but, I think so. What I am saying is that God know the decisions we, of our own free will, will make.

  4. #19
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. 5020
    There's a lot of words there, but, I think so. What I am saying is that God know the decisions we, of our own free will, will make.
    So then, you must reject the idea that some prophecies are "conditional" correct?

    In other words...

    For a prophecy to be conditional, that prophecy must be contingent upon future "conditions" being met or not met. If the future is settled for God there could be no such thing as contingencies in the future.
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  5. #20
    Over 2000 post club Mr. 5020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    So then, you must reject the idea that some prophecies are "conditional" correct?

    In other words...

    For a prophecy to be conditional, that prophecy must be contingent upon future "conditions" being met or not met. If the future is settled for God there could be no such thing as contingencies in the future.
    I'm not sure how to answer. What seems extremely logical to me seems utterly illogical to you. I guess you are right. Since the future would be settled (only in God's perspective), than the future would not seem conditional to God, but only to us.

    What is this? 4 posts in one day. More active than I ever thought this one on one would get.

  6. #21
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. 5020
    I'm not sure how to answer. What seems extremely logical to me seems utterly illogical to you. I guess you are right. Since the future would be settled (only in God's perspective), than the future would not seem conditional to God, but only to us.
    That is indeed where your theology confines you.

    What is this? 4 posts in one day. More active than I ever thought this one on one would get.
    Awesome eh?

    OK, I guess I am ready for your next question if you have one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    That is indeed where your theology confines you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    OK, I guess I am ready for your next question if you have one.
    I didn't know the conversation would die. I'll come up with one.

  8. #23
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. 5020
    I didn't know the conversation would die.
    I didn't think you would acknowledge that the future isn't "conditional".

    What else can I say?


    If you are comfortable with that theology there isn't much more I can add (at least on that topic).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    I didn't think you would acknowledge that the future isn't "conditional".

    What else can I say?


    If you are comfortable with that theology there isn't much more I can add (at least on that topic).
    I thought I had made it clear that my theology does not conflict with true free will, though.

    I think that I am no longer on the same page you are.

  10. #25
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. 5020
    I thought I had made it clear that my theology does not conflict with true free will, though.
    If the future isn't "conditional" there is no such thing as true freewill.

    Think about it.
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    Over 2000 post club Mr. 5020's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    If the future isn't "conditional" there is no such thing as true freewill.

    Think about it.
    This is why I said earlier, "What seems extremely logical to me seems utterly illogical to you." If God knows what our choice will be, I don't see how that removes the fact that we made the choice.

  12. #27
    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. 5020
    This is why I said earlier, "What seems extremely logical to me seems utterly illogical to you." If God knows what our choice will be, I don't see how that removes the fact that we made the choice.
    IF.... the future is settled, the future is settled. There is nothing free about a settled future. It's settled!

    If God know's that in 9 years from now at a party on December 14th at 8:53PM I will choose to start smoking crack I have no freewill to choose otherwise, correct?

    The only way I could have a true freewill would be if the future wasn't settled and I had the REAL ability to choose otherwise.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    IF.... the future is settled, the future is settled. There is nothing free about a settled future. It's settled!
    This is where your theology confines you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    If God know's that in 9 years from now at a party on December 14th at 8:53PM I will choose to start smoking crack I have no freewill to choose otherwise, correct?

    The only way I could have a true freewill would be if the future wasn't settled and I had the REAL ability to choose otherwise.
    But you still chose to smoke crack. It wasn't God's choice. It was your choice. Just because God is powerful enough to know you would choose it doesn't mean that you didn't choose it.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. 5020
    But you still chose to smoke crack. It wasn't God's choice. It was your choice. Just because God is powerful enough to know you would choose it doesn't mean that you didn't choose it.
    Do I have the ability to choose otherwise and render God's foreknowledge incorrect?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Do I have the ability to choose otherwise and render God's foreknowledge incorrect?
    God's foreknowledge does not interfere with your choice.

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