OK, maybe i need to apologize to some Americans..

R

republicanchick

New member
OCTOBER23 said:
THEY WERE DUMBED DOWN BY THE MEDIA

NO ONE WANTS TO CONDEMN A BLACK CELEBRITY UNLESS HIS NAME IS COSBY.:p:p
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huh? i didn't know anyone was really trying to condemn him... a poor person can be a serial rapist and will get the full wt of the law thrown on him but someone like Cosby... hmmm... those women may be lying, every one of them... exaggerating... Maybe htey wanted to have sex with him but then.. well, u know.. etc... etc... maybe this and maybe that...

I think all we humans tend to do this... make exceptions for certain seemingly more important people... But when we see ourselves doing this, we need to stop... b/c God is no respecter of persons and we are supposed to be like him Mt 5:48




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quip

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republicanchick said:
Yeh, my thread about OJ and what a dumb decision the jury made letting that maniacal killer go free.. the implication was that most Americans are dumb.

I don't believe that. I believe they are actually very intelligent (most of them). But this is the problem:

Many "things" interfere with people USING their intelligence wisely!

yes, many things, things like:

fear of being called Racist... yeh, we all know about that one... ad nauseum

things like: Hey, this is OJ! We can't convict an American icon...

etc... etc...

Geez, people... USE your intelligence, don't let it get stuck in the unimportant, the irrelevant, the minutiae... the con artist words of unethical (redundancy alert) lawyers

(yeh, I know... apologies to Andrew Nepalitano, Jeanine Piro and others...)



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The majority of Americans (frustratingly) realize that OJ was guilty of murder, if only intuitively. I believe your issue is not the American public writ large but rather the American justice system per se.....where, given enough money, "justice" can be an easily sought and consumable commodity.
 
Town Heretic

Town Heretic

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quip said:
The majority of Americans (frustratingly) realize that OJ was guilty of murder, if only intuitively. I believe your issue is not the American public writ large but rather the American justice system per se.....where, given enough money, "justice" can be an easily sought and consumable commodity.
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She has a problem with a lot of things, including race. As for the justice system, it mostly does what it is supposed to do. OJ didn't win because he spent a lot of money on lawyers, though that never hurts. He won because the prosecution and police didn't do their jobs properly AND because their client was a beloved celebrity AND because of a history of suspicion, a good bit of it justified, existed in the civilian population when it came to police conduct, especially in relation to minorities.
 
quip

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Town Heretic said:
She has a problem with a lot of things, including race. As for the justice system, it mostly does what it is supposed to do. OJ didn't win because he spent a lot of money on lawyers, though that never hurts. He won because the prosecution and police didn't do their jobs properly AND because their client was a beloved celebrity AND because of a history of suspicion, a good bit of it justified, existed in the civilian population when it came to police conduct, especially in relation to minorities.
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Would a public defender or perhaps a yellow pages, ham n egger had the talent, resources and/or put forth the effort to exploit such in favor of OJ?

Doubtful...in my opinion.
 
The Barbarian

The Barbarian

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The USA is 30th in the world of the most intelligent countries.
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Or perhaps it's a measure of how many non-English speaking immigrants we have. IQ is at best, a rough estimate of intelligence.

In Texas, they tell of the Aggie who moved to Oklahoma, and raised the average IQ in both states.
 
The Barbarian

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Maybe, maybe not. One reason U.S. public school test scores are abysmal is because many other nations refuse to test or even school the lower functioning students the U.S. include in its own scores.
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There's some truth to that. After 8th grade, a lot of nations move the brightest into college prep (what we'd call "high school") and the rest into vocational ed.

So the apples-to-apples comparision is how our 8th graders match up to those of other nations in the same subjects. So the International Math and Science Study gives 8th graders identical tests in math and science. Here's how we match up:

Math:
  1. Singapore 606
  2. Korea 605
  3. Chinese Taipei 591
  4. Japan 585
  5. Northern Ireland 562
  6. Belgium (Flemish) 549
  7. Finland 545
  8. England 543
  9. Russian Federation 542
  10. United States 541
Tenth of 50 nations overall.

Science:
  1. Singapore 590
  2. Taiwan 564
  3. South Korea 560
  4. Japan 558
  5. Finland 552
  6. Slovenia 543
  7. Russia 542
  8. Hong Kong 535
  9. England (and Wales) 533
  10. United States 525

Again, tenth of 50, (last testing 2011)
Details here:
http://timss.bc.edu/timss2011/index.html

In both, well above average. Not that tenth is where we want to be, but no nation with an immigrant population as large as ours has comparable scores.

That is NOT the only reason the U.S. has low test scores but it should be factored in when comparing us to other nations who don't count those kids.
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TIMSS in 8th grade, pretty much eliminates the factor you're talking about. And yeah, we look pretty good. Not good enough, but well above average.

And that's due mostly to a few states with either many, many immigrants, (language-related issues or poor previous schooling) or low state education budgets (mostly deep south).

Some states in the US compare well with the best countries in the world. Lacking a national education policy, that probably won't ever be the norm.
 
Desert Reign

Desert Reign

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PureX said:
There you go again, assuming that we humans need someone else's authority to think, speak, and make judgments about observed behaviors.
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You're entitled to your opinions, of course. But it seems just a little too fashionable to me to criticise Christians. It's easy to focus on what is bad rather than on what is good. It is easier to lie than to tell the truth. It is easier to destroy than to build.
The way of sacrifice as a believer in Jesus involves building. And even those in the business of judging, should do so only in order to replace what they criticise with something better.
 
PureX

PureX

Well-known member
Desert Reign said:
You're entitled to your opinions, of course. But it seems just a little too fashionable to me to criticise Christians. It's easy to focus on what is bad rather than on what is good. It is easier to lie than to tell the truth. It is easier to destroy than to build.
The way of sacrifice as a believer in Jesus involves building. And even those in the business of judging, should do so only in order to replace what they criticise with something better.
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Here on TOL there is already PLENTY of self-congratulatory back-slapping among religious Christians. There's little need for more of that. What is missing is honest self-awareness. Honest self-evaluation and criticism. What is missing is an understanding and admission that Christians are just as guilty of willful ignorance, selfishness, bigotry, greed, lust, and outright hatred as anyone else is. And if the majority of Christians here on TOL are incapable of critiquing their own beliefs and motives, then I can and will do it for them. I try not to do it directly, and I try to remember to include myself among the guilty. But I will do it, because I can, and because someone should. Because there are many professing Christians, here, who need to hear it.
 
Town Heretic

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PureX said:
Here on TOL there is already PLENTY of self-congratulatory back-slapping among religious Christians.
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A person could make a good living as a metaphysical chiropractor. But there's also a surfeit of non Christians blowing up on Christians.

What is missing is honest self-awareness. Honest self-evaluation and criticism.
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In some, possibly. In most? Doubtful. It's at the heart of our need for intercession, the foundational truth of Christianity. Or, as I'm apt to say, "And so grace."
 
PureX

PureX

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Town Heretic said:
It's at the heart of our need for intercession, the foundational truth of Christianity. Or, as I'm apt to say, "And so grace."
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Ego immunizes people against 'God's grace'. Thus, nearly all of the world's religions have preached on and taught the fundamental practice of humility. Something modern American Christianity seems to have completely jettisoned in it's quest for social and political power.
 
Town Heretic

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PureX said:
Ego immunizes people against 'God's grace'.
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Only among the works crowd. :)

Or, more seriously, you can't say we're all the same sort of people, as prone to the same flaws (which would include ego) and then elevate any group or groups over another without illustrating the very thing you're railing against.

Thus, nearly all of the world's religions have preached on and taught the fundamental practice of humility. Something a vocal and loud segment of modern American Christianity seems to have completely jettisoned in it's quest for social and political power.
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Fixed that for you.
 
PureX

PureX

Well-known member
Town Heretic said:
Only among the works crowd. :)

Or, more seriously, you can't say we're all the same sort of people, as prone to the same flaws (which would include ego) and then elevate any group or groups over another without illustrating the very thing you're railing against.
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I know. But that does not negate my point. Far from it! It serves to illustrate it.

Being aware that we are sinners does not make the sinful inclinations cease. But it certainly does humble us. And it certainly does make us more honest about them than we had been, before. And honesty and humility are our two most effective tools in resisting those sinful inclinations.

Progress, not perfection. That is the achievable goal for we humans. If God wants or demands perfection, God will have to make that happen of His own accord.
 
R

republicanchick

New member
PureX said:
I know. But that does not negate my point. Far from it! It serves to illustrate it.

Being aware that we are sinners does not make the sinful inclinations cease. But it certainly does humble us. And it certainly does make us more honest about them than we had been, before. And honesty and humility are our two most effective tools in resisting those sinful inclinations.

Progress, not perfection. That is the achievable goal for we humans. If God wants or demands perfection, God will have to make that happen of His own accord.
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he "can't" do it without you... more to the point, He WONT


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Town Heretic

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republicanchick said:
he "can't" do it without you... more to the point, He WONT
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His work is complete without us, but he won't force you or me or anyone to acknowledge and accept the reconciliation in sacrifice offered in the cross. A thing that is by its nature antagonistic to ego. The moment we speak of what we must do, instead of what we will do in gratitude, we take on a measure of our salvation and offer insult and ego in repayment.
 
R

republicanchick

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Town Heretic said:
His work is complete without us, but he won't force you or me or anyone to acknowledge and accept the reconciliation in sacrifice offered in the cross. A thing that is by its nature antagonistic to ego. The moment we speak of what we must do, instead of what we will do in gratitude, we take on a measure of our salvation and offer insult and ego in repayment.
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so says you and the SinAllYouWant&StillGet2Heaven people

I will believe common sense... aka The Holy Spirit...

The HS tells me that when I sin, I sepaarate myself from Christ

and Christ is my "ticket" to Heaven... therefore, logic dictates: avoid sin to avoid losing connection w/ Christ...

you know.. you're talking to someone on the phone and suddenly you drop the phone and it falls into a sink of hot water.. and you are disconnected and you... like need a new phone...




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Town Heretic

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republicanchick said:
so says you and the SinAllYouWant&StillGet2Heaven people
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Who would want to sin loving God?

No one. That's not the notion. It's just the thing you tell yourself to be disagreeable with it. I can't merit salvation. If I could Christ's sacrifice would have been and be superfluous. Put simply, you can't love God and not desire His pleasure as your own. And that pleasure is never sin.
 
R

republicanchick

New member
Town Heretic said:
Who would want to sin loving God?

No one. That's not the notion. It's just the thing you tell yourself to be disagreeable with it. I can't merit salvation. If I could Christ's sacrifice would have been and be superfluous. Put simply, you can't love God and not desire His pleasure as your own. And that pleasure is never sin.
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I don't disagree

But if you get tired of doing good things and want to say, commit fornication and u think God is just going to act like you didn't do it and you can go straight to Heaven if you die w/o repenting of it, expiating the ill effects of it... you are SADLY mistaken

the souls that sins shall die, says the Bible..
 
Town Heretic

Town Heretic

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republicanchick said:
I don't disagree

But if you get tired of doing good things and want to say, commit fornication
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Why in God's name would I want to do that? Like saying, sure you love her, but if you get an itch to visit a whorehouse all liquored up...well, no.

and u think God is just going to act like you didn't do it and you can go straight to Heaven if you die w/o repenting of it, expiating the ill effects of it... you are SADLY mistaken
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I think I have accepted the completed work of Christ. He doesn't need to do more and His sacrifice was for my sins, not for some of them. Otherwise you set up a situation where I might have sinned, been on my way to confession only to be hit by a drunk driver and die in a state that separated me from God.

I don't believe in salvation by lottery.

the souls that sins shall die, says the Bible.
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Our difference is that you seem to believe we more or less lease salvation. I think it's a gift.
 
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