ECT A difference between right and wrong

Does Untillectual keep the Foot Washing like JESUS said to do ?
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John 13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet;
ye also ought to wash one another’s feet.

1 Timothy 5:10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints’ feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
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Deuteronomy 33:3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.

1 Samuel 2:9 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.

The Seventh day is the Sabbath = Saturday.

It begins at Dawn and ends at Dusk just like Jesus said in John 11:9

John 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day?

If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

Untellectual said:

They sinned, and sin is evil... but they also came to know the consequences of sin.

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I agree, but we humans still do not possess knowledge of good and evil. We only imagine that we do. And because we imagine that we do, we stand in judgment of all we encounter. And we condemn it as if we created it, and own it. As if we were demigods. And then we set out to punish and correct everything and everyone according to our own selfish will and desires.

This is what we imagine to be "knowledge of good and evil". And religion is one of the worst purveyors of this; the fundamental origin of sin and human suffering.

Untellectual said:

There is a difference between right and wrong.

When Adam and Eve disobeyed, they received the knowledge of good and evil. This was not a good thing. That is, evil could then be known.

Now we have to choose between right and wrong. The issue is that many don't know the difference. But there is one.

What is it?

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Define right and define wrong.

Multiple choices on a history or math or science test?

True or false questions?

Define them and you have the answer.

OCTOBER23 said:

Does Untillectual keep the Foot Washing like JESUS said to do ?
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John 13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet;
ye also ought to wash one another’s feet.

1 Timothy 5:10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints’ feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.
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Deuteronomy 33:3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.

1 Samuel 2:9 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.

Click to expand...

I have been involved in foot washing, yes.

OCTOBER23 said:

The Seventh day is the Sabbath = Saturday.

It begins at Dawn and ends at Dusk just like Jesus said in John 11:9

John 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day?

If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

Click to expand...

Day can mean daytime, but with the Sabbath that is not the definition of a day. The Sabbath day is not 24 hours though it is. That is, if a given day begins and ends with sunset or sundown then the length of each day varies as well. However, a Biblical day as Jesus said would be divided into 12 hours. There is more than one definition for day. That is how I understand it.

PureX said:

I agree, but we humans still do not possess knowledge of good and evil. We only imagine that we do. And because we imagine that we do, we stand in judgment of all we encounter. And we condemn it as if we created it, and own it. As if we were demigods. And then we set out to punish and correct everything and everyone according to our own selfish will and desires.

This is what we imagine to be "knowledge of good and evil". And religion is one of the worst purveyors of this; the fundamental origin of sin and human suffering.

Click to expand...

I am speaking simply about the knowledge of good and evil, which it is not a privilege to know/have. However, we are privileged with the ability to make decisions on the side of right rather than wrong. One is a consequence of disobedience, the other is the freedom to make decisions that are not in disobedience to God. Without the first we would not have the second... except in that Adam and Eve also had a choice (just not the knowledge of good and evil). We most certainly are not like God.

oatmeal said:

Define right and define wrong.

Multiple choices on a history or math or science test?

True or false questions?

Define them and you have the answer.

Click to expand...

The knowledge of good and evil is not good. But here is what is good:

Hebrews 5:14 NASB - But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

Untellectual said:

I am speaking simply about the knowledge of good and evil, which it is not a privilege to know/have. However, we are privileged with the ability to make decisions on the side of right rather than wrong. One is a consequence of disobedience, the other is the freedom to make decisions that are not in disobedience to God. Without the first we would not have the second... except in that Adam and Eve also had a choice (just not the knowledge of good and evil). We most certainly are not like God.

Click to expand...

I would say that we have to choose because we do not have the knowledge of good and evil. We have to choose to trust in the goodness of God, and in the goodness of what God has created (including the world and ourselves and each other), or we will choose to become our own god, and trust only in ourselves, and pursue only our own understanding, our own needs, and our own desires.

In the story, Adam and Eve chose the latter. They wanted to be their own gods. And the moment they made that decision, they came to exist in antipathy with all God's creation. And we are still living in antipathy with God's creation to this day. For the same reason: we are still choosing to be our own gods, and trusting only in ourselves. All sins begin with this 'original' sin. And the church commits this sin every time it proclaims itself to be a 'divine authority': a manifestation of God on Earth.

And until mankind and religion both finally and truly humble themselves, and trust in God's creation, both will continue to live in antipathy with every thing and every one.

That is the lesson I take from the story of Adam and Eve in Genesis.

PureX said:

I would say that we have to choose because we do not have the knowledge of good and evil. We have to choose to trust in the goodness of God, and in the goodness of what God has created (including the world and ourselves and each other), or we will choose to become our own god, and trust only in ourselves, and pursue only our own understanding, our own needs, and our own desires.

In the story, Adam and Eve chose the latter. They wanted to be their own gods. And the moment they made that decision, they came to exist in antipathy with all God's creation. And we are still living in antipathy with God's creation to this day. For the same reason: we are still choosing to be our own gods, and trusting only in ourselves. All sins begin with this 'original' sin. And the church commits this sin every time it proclaims itself to be a 'divine authority': a manifestation of God on Earth.

And until mankind and religion both finally and truly humble themselves, and trust in God's creation, both will continue to live in antipathy with every thing and every one.

That is the lesson I take from the story of Adam and Eve in Genesis.

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We need to be submitted to God, but not for the purpose of proclaiming our own glory but His.

There was a consequence to the first sin, as you have stated. Do you remember what the text says that consequence would be? Remember, satan tempted with what? Was it something God said or was it not something God said?

Here is a starting point. Genesis 2:17 NASB - but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

Maybe I don't have the story exactly right. See Genesis 3:5, 22 and the context for all of these, the beginning of Genesis up until man was kicked out of the garden of eden.

UNTILLECUTE

NICE TRY BUT NO CIGAR :cigar:

A given day NOT begin and end with sunset or sundown .

In Genesis , God STOPS WORKING AT SUNSET AND STARTS AT DAWN.
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In Exodus 16 Moses says to Start the Sabbath in the MORNING.

Exodus 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said,

To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD:

that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

Untellectual said:

We need to be submitted to God, but not for the purpose of proclaiming our own glory but His.

Click to expand...

It isn't about "proclaiming glory". It's about being what and who we were created to be. It's about alignment (and hopefully our re-alignment) with God and creation … and with each other.

Untellectual said:

There was a consequence to the first sin, as you have stated. Do you remember what the text says that consequence would be? Remember, satan tempted with what? Was it something God said or was it not something God said?

Click to expand...

The temptation was to presume ourselves to be God's equals. And the consequence was that we blinded ourselves to the truth of our own existence as both the objects and expressions of God's love. And we placed ourselves in antipathy with all creation. As a result, we now toil and labor all our days trying to make creation serve us, exclusively and selfishly, as we imagine it should be doing (since we imagine ourselves to be demigods).

Untellectual said:

Here is a starting point. Genesis 2:17 NASB - but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

Click to expand...

Yes. We did "eat from it" (took it into ourselves the idea that we possess the knowledge of good and evil), but as God promised, we did not actually receive the knowledge of good and evil. Instead, we died to our true selves. Our selves as the objects and expressions of divine love. Our selves in kinship with all living things and in alignment with the flow of the natural world. What died was the knowledge of who we really are and how we were meant to live.

Untellectual said:

Maybe I don't have the story exactly right. See Genesis 3:5, 22 and the context for all of these, the beginning of Genesis up until man was kicked out of the garden of eden.

Click to expand...

The key is to read the story like poetry: written in the language of symbolic imagery. It's not meant to be read like a historic novella. And certainly not like a newspaper or textbook.

OCTOBER23 said:

UNTILLECUTE

NICE TRY BUT NO CIGAR :cigar:

A given day NOT begin and end with sunset or sundown .

In Genesis , God STOPS WORKING AT SUNSET AND STARTS AT DAWN.
--------------------------------
In Exodus 16 Moses says to Start the Sabbath in the MORNING.

Exodus 16:23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said,

To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD:

that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

Click to expand...

Why is a day composed of evening and morning? Of this Sabbath this is not said. However, Sabbaths and holy days begin when the sun goes down or sets. Why not other days the same as with the first six days of creation being evening and morning?

PureX said:

It isn't about "proclaiming glory". It's about being what and who we were created to be. It's about alignment (and hopefully our re-alignment) with God and creation … and with each other.
The temptation was to presume ourselves to be God's equals. And the consequence was that we blinded ourselves to the truth of our own existence as both the objects and expressions of God's love. And we placed ourselves in antipathy with all creation. As a result, we now toil and labor all our days trying to make creation serve us, exclusively and selfishly, as we imagine it should be doing (since we imagine ourselves to be demigods).
Yes. We did "eat from it" (took it into ourselves the idea that we possess the knowledge of good and evil), but as God promised, we did not actually receive the knowledge of good and evil. Instead, we died to our true selves. Our selves as the objects and expressions of divine love. Our selves in kinship with all living things and in alignment with the flow of the natural world. What died was the knowledge of who we really are and how we were meant to live.
The key is to read the story like poetry: written in the language of symbolic imagery. It's not meant to be read like a historic novella. And certainly not like a newspaper or textbook.

Click to expand...

It is not a good thing to know good and evil, is where I am coming from in my understanding of this. It was the consequence of Adam and Eve's disobedience. Before this there was only that God called His creation good and very good. But this does not speak of the reality of the need for morals. The knowledge of good and evil is not morals. Morals are what we need as a result of the knowledge of good and evil. That is, now we need to know what is good and what is evil, but that this is different than the knowledge of good and evil. Now we have to figure out the difference, knowing of the existence of both now in our/the world.

UNTILLECUTICAL said,

-- Sabbaths and holy days begin when the sun goes down or sets.

=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=--=-==-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=

Do you have any Proof of this or scriptures because I would like to see them ????

Are you specifically talking about Atonement or some other Holy Day ?

OCTOBER23 said:

UNTILLECUTICAL said,

-- Sabbaths and holy days begin when the sun goes down or sets.

=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=--=-==-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=

Do you have any Proof of this or scriptures because I would like to see them ????

Are you specifically talking about Atonement or some other Holy Day ?

Click to expand...

Great question. Are we talking just about the creation account? I may be able to find something more than this in the Torah, but at this point I am simply recognizing that if the six days of creation were evening and morning I wouldn't expect the Sabbath on the seventh day to be any different.

I will look in the Torah and try to get back to your response to this point I am making, as I am able. Here are the definitions given in the Lexicon: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=H3117&t=NASB

Untilectualism,

Don't bother because I did an in depth 2 year study of when the DAY

Begins and Ends and all the different related words in the Bible such as,

Daylight, tomorrow, dawning of the day , twilight, day is far spent,

on the morrow, sunlight, etc etc etc.

And I have proven that the DAY begins at Dawn and Ends at Dawn according to Genesis.

The word YOM (day) means Warm and it is usually Warm during the Sunlight hours

which is the 12 hours from Sunrise to Sunset.

NEHEMIA, CLOSED the Gates to STOP the Merchants from using the Sabbath day to

Sell their wares on the coming Sabbath Day and NOT to start the Sabbath day.

So, lets get our facts Right about the Bible.

Untellectual said:

It is not a good thing to know good and evil, is where I am coming from in my understanding of this. It was the consequence of Adam and Eve's disobedience. Before this there was only that God called His creation good and very good. But this does not speak of the reality of the need for morals. The knowledge of good and evil is not morals. Morals are what we need as a result of the knowledge of good and evil. That is, now we need to know what is good and what is evil, but that this is different than the knowledge of good and evil. Now we have to figure out the difference, knowing of the existence of both now in our/the world.

Click to expand...

I agree. I believe the story was written as a way of explaining this fundamental aspect of the human condition.

OCTOBER23 said:

Untilectualism,

Don't bother because I did an in depth 2 year study of when the DAY

Begins and Ends and all the different related words in the Bible such as,

Daylight, tomorrow, dawning of the day , twilight, day is far spent,

on the morrow, sunlight, etc etc etc.

And I have proven that the DAY begins at Dawn and Ends at Dawn according to Genesis.

The word YOM (day) means Warm and it is usually Warm during the Sunlight hours

which is the 12 hours from Sunrise to Sunset.

NEHEMIA, CLOSED the Gates to STOP the Merchants from using the Sabbath day to

Sell their wares on the coming Sabbath Day and NOT to start the Sabbath day.

So, lets get our facts Right about the Bible.

Click to expand...

Do you believe evening begins with sunset or sundown or dusk?

PureX said:

I agree. I believe the story was written as a way of explaining this fundamental aspect of the human condition.

Click to expand...

:up:

I am sure I have more to learn about this, but I feel we have communicated well. I am thankful for your understanding.

I truly believe they were not to eat of the tree and that we suffer the consequence of their choice to do so.