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Thread: One on One: KMoney and DRBrumey discussion on democracy

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    TOL Legend drbrumley's Avatar
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    One on One: KMoney and DRBrumey discussion on democracy

    KMoney, I started this thread so we can discuss democracy.

    You said democracy is not wicked. I disagree. Any system that allows you to vote on immorality to make it ok, is wrong. We were not created a democracy. We were created a Republic, which is a big difference.

    So here, let me state my position on democracy and we can go from there.

    Democracy Problems
    - Limited Government: God gave governments responsibility only for infrastructure and defense. If government limited itself to its two just functions, thereby getting out of education, health care, farming, etc., it could better defend America.
    - Full-time Campaign: Our democratic form of government turns our leaders into full-time campaigners. President Bush effectively was campaigning in Florida when the hijacked planes crashed into the World Trade Center. No one can govern from a third grade classroom.
    - Focus: When the government focuses on education, parents lose focus of their primary role in educating their children. And when a government focuses on education, it cannot focus as well on governing. A successful business which branches out into thirty different areas typically does poorly in all areas, including its original core business. America must limit government to maintaining infrastructure and to defense of life, liberty, and property (through the criminal justice system and the military).
    The state — whatever its particular forms — always expresses itself as a collective form of property ownership. All political systems are socialistic, in that they are premised upon the subservience of individual interests to collective authority. Communism, fascism, lesser forms of state socialism, and welfarism, are all premised upon the state’s usurpation of privately-owned property. Whether one chooses to be aligned with the political "Left," "Right," or "Middle," comes down to nothing more than a preference for a particular franchise of state socialism.

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    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    Let me make this a one on one thread so nobody else can post in it OK?
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    TOL Legend drbrumley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Let me make this a one on one thread so nobody else can post in it OK?
    Thanks.
    The state — whatever its particular forms — always expresses itself as a collective form of property ownership. All political systems are socialistic, in that they are premised upon the subservience of individual interests to collective authority. Communism, fascism, lesser forms of state socialism, and welfarism, are all premised upon the state’s usurpation of privately-owned property. Whether one chooses to be aligned with the political "Left," "Right," or "Middle," comes down to nothing more than a preference for a particular franchise of state socialism.

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    ...then I woke up. Knight's Avatar
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    I will close this thread in two weeks unless you tell me to close it sooner.
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    TOL Legend drbrumley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    I will close this thread in two weeks unless you tell me to close it sooner.
    Sounds good.
    The state — whatever its particular forms — always expresses itself as a collective form of property ownership. All political systems are socialistic, in that they are premised upon the subservience of individual interests to collective authority. Communism, fascism, lesser forms of state socialism, and welfarism, are all premised upon the state’s usurpation of privately-owned property. Whether one chooses to be aligned with the political "Left," "Right," or "Middle," comes down to nothing more than a preference for a particular franchise of state socialism.

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    TOL Legend kmoney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drbrumley
    KMoney, I started this thread so we can discuss democracy.
    drb, not sure when I'll get my first response in, but I will try to get a response tonight. I'm working on a paper for school

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    TOL Legend drbrumley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kmoney
    drb, not sure when I'll get my first response in, but I will try to get a response tonight. I'm working on a paper for school
    Thats cool. No big rush. I just wanted to get this thread started so we can discuss this issue opposite the other threads.
    The state — whatever its particular forms — always expresses itself as a collective form of property ownership. All political systems are socialistic, in that they are premised upon the subservience of individual interests to collective authority. Communism, fascism, lesser forms of state socialism, and welfarism, are all premised upon the state’s usurpation of privately-owned property. Whether one chooses to be aligned with the political "Left," "Right," or "Middle," comes down to nothing more than a preference for a particular franchise of state socialism.

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    TOL Legend kmoney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by drbrumley
    KMoney, I started this thread so we can discuss democracy.

    You said democracy is not wicked. I disagree. Any system that allows you to vote on immorality to make it ok, is wrong. We were not created a democracy. We were created a Republic, which is a big difference.
    Well when I said I didn't think democracy was wicked I was basically meant that no form of government is inherently evil/wicked. I do not believe the bible shows any certain form of government is "moral" and the rest are wicked. Some will say that some passage does show God thinks that a monarchy is the biblical form of government, but I have read that passage and do not believe that is what it means. Man is wicked so any instituation ran by man will have wickedness in it.

    A couple questions:
    Is what they are establishing in Iraq a pure democracy? From what I've seen they are trying to institute something similar to what we have.
    And am I correct in assuming that you believe the form of government we have is not wicked? Or do you believe our republic is wicked also?

    - Limited Government: God gave governments responsibility only for infrastructure and defense. If government limited itself to its two just functions, thereby getting out of education, health care, farming, etc., it could better defend America.
    Do you mean federal government? or are you including state also? and local?
    Ideally the federal government would be limited to a few functions. The founding fathers of our country originally wanted the fed govt to handle defense, state currency, state trade, and foreign affairs. Despite this they did leave room for more responsiblity and that is what happened.
    It might be helpful if you layout what all you include in "infrastructure".

    - Full-time Campaign: Our democratic form of government turns our leaders into full-time campaigners. President Bush effectively was campaigning in Florida when the hijacked planes crashed into the World Trade Center. No one can govern from a third grade classroom.
    How do you think leaders should get into office then? Campaigning is a natural result of having elections. I agree with you that so much can become nothing more than a plan to get votes in the next election, but I have trouble seeing a way around it, unless we trash the election process.

    - Focus: When the government focuses on education, parents lose focus of their primary role in educating their children. And when a government focuses on education, it cannot focus as well on governing. A successful business which branches out into thirty different areas typically does poorly in all areas, including its original core business. America must limit government to maintaining infrastructure and to defense of life, liberty, and property (through the criminal justice system and the military).
    Again, can you clarify what you mean by "government"? Are you just meaning the federal governemnt? where there are also state governments having more responsibilities?
    or do you think there should be no division between fed/state/local governments?
    I don't deny at all that if the reach of the government stretches too far they will lose effectiveness.
    And as far as education, how do you think education should be handled then? I believe there has to be some form of state/public education system. I think it could be a state controlled issue, but not completely out of the parents hands. People can complain about the state of the public education system, but if it were left up to the parents completely I believe it would be even worse.

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